Suspicions Confirmed

What an awful site. Listen, I learned more about my craft reading "Woe is I" by Patricia T. O'Conner, and reading "On Writing" by Stephen King. Oh, and of course all of my life experience has help as well.

Postsecret is wicked depressing. "On Writing" however is simply awesome. Hands down one of the best books about writing ever written.

PixelFish said:

I took a couple of creative writing courses in high school and college...and never learned half as much as I did on my own, just writing.

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Yup, me too. And tons of books on writing from my local library. And writing, rewriting, and submitting. And most important--BIC!

I understood what it said, but so what? It's not about the money, although the money you can receive as a writer is nice (the average annual income of the average successful writer is only $19,000 per year - talk about starving artists), it's all about the work. To see my writing in print, and for people to like it and appreciate it and be affected by it is all worth it. Don't you think? And then there is those top 4% that make a bundle. A friend of mine got a six digit advance on his first book that came out last year.

Courses

PixelFish said:

I took a couple of creative writing courses in high school and college...and never learned half as much as I did on my own, just writing.

And now...I see this on PostSecret:

http://postsecret.blogspot.com/#111307595789245478



edit: I think the link doesn't work quite right, unfortunately. The postcard I am looking at reads:

Income from teaching creative writing: $32,654.00

Income from creative writing: $0.00

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I learned an awful lot from creative writing courses in college. . .but I did find my best professors earned a good deal of money from writing. If you're going to take creative writing courses in college, I think it best to go where selling writer-in-residence will be doing a great deal of the teaching.

But I also learned a great deal from literature courses, usually criticism and study. There was no creative writing in most of these courses, but they were extremely helpful.

But I also learned quite a bit from books. "The Creative Writer," from WD Books was the first biggie. "Call It Experience" by Erskine Caldwell was the second. In more recents times, "Zen in the Art of Writing" by Ray Bradbury, and "On Writing" by Stephen King were very influential.

And that postcard site is too depressing for words.

Ah, yes, I forgot about that one. "Zen in the Art of Writing" by Bradbury is golden.

"Woe is I" and "On Writing". Two must haves and are both worthy of my desk. All other books go into the bookcase (except for "The Great Philadelphia Fan Book", but that's another story...pun intended)

Somehow the original subject was lost. PixelFish has decided that teaching is more lucrative than writing because a teacher that is a failed writer said so...or does the money really matter when you're doing something you love?

That's probably the most interesting site I've seen all day. Thank you.

My first thought on the creative writing postcard was to laugh. It's an interesting view on writing -- I see it as a comment on the whole "is it talent or training" question rather than a "you'll never make money at this, ever!" thing. I vote for "a little of both", myself, as long as "training" encompasses "discipline".

Or it could just be a cute way for someone who is staring at another rejection slip to vent. Remember, you aren't a failed writer until you stop sending out new queries. Or something like that.

Teacher

LightShadow said:

Somehow the original subject was lost. PixelFish has decided that teaching is more lucrative than writing because a teacher that is a failed writer said so...or does the money really matter when you're doing something you love?

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The lesson I get from this is that if you can't do it yourself, you probably shouldn't be trying to teach others how to do it.

I wouldn't take a novel writing class from someone whose novels have never been published.

maestrowork said:

I wouldn't take a novel writing class from someone whose novels have never been published.

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I don't know about that. I took a creative writing class at the JC level one time and the teacher had a couple articles published, but after trying was still unpublished in the book market, yet I learned more from her than most of my other classes.

LightShadow said:

I don't know about that. I took a creative writing class at the JC level one time and the teacher had a couple articles published, but after trying was still unpublished in the book market, yet I learned more from her than most of my other classes.

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What did you learn from her that is so invaluable?

(My instructor was not very "successful," per se, but he had one novel published, traditionally, by a small press. He just had another one published last year.)

maestrowork said:

What did you learn from her that is so invaluable?

(My instructor was not very "successful," per se, but he had one novel published, traditionally, by a small press. He just had another one published last year.)

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I learned that most of my creativity springs directly from my experiences and that I should respect and nurture the nonlinear, intuitive creative process rather than analyze and prescribe formulae for finished products, since you asked.

I definitely interpreted it as an admission along the lines of 'I'm teaching a subject that I'm not as good at as my students hope to become'. That's the only way that makes any sense, really.

The best writing prof I've ever had doesn't have a book published. She self-publishes chapbooks and does dramatic writing and attends classes and workshops and retreats and has about a million connections, but as far as I know, she's never published with a Real Publisher.

They teach because they have something to share. There may be a few out there who feel they're beyond being taught anything new, but I believe we all learn something everyday, so why not seek knowledge so that our learning experience as we grow becomes more fulfilling? I don't just go to school for the education, but for the experience, which includes interacting with people of various personality types, and so forth.

I had two teachers who helped my writing by leaps and bounds. One had an award-winning novel published. The other has never had a novel published. I cannot decide which one helped me more. They are both phenomenal women who helped me break through the barrier I built up for myself. I find that some writing teachers are so incredible...taking their classes wakes me up on some level and I am forever thankful. I could care less if they have novels to back up their words.

Also, I think On Writing and Writing Down the Bones helped me incredibly! I love that those two books crossed my path. They changed my life.

KTC said:

I had two teachers who helped my writing by leaps and bounds. One had an award-winning novel published. The other has never had a novel published. I cannot decide which one helped me more. They are both phenomenal women who helped me break through the barrier I built up for myself. I find that some writing teachers are so incredible...taking their classes wakes me up on some level and I am forever thankful. I could care less if they have novels to back up their words.

Also, I think On Writing and Writing Down the Bones helped me incredibly! I love that those two books crossed my path. They changed my life.

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I definitely learned more from "On Writing" than any of my classes, so I guess you can say that often published writers are the best teachers, but that does not mean that all of the best teachers must be published writers.

Evaluating the value of college majors can be tricky. When you look at the reason for people choosing to take courses, not all of them are thinking, "This will make me the next Stephen King."

"I like poetry" coupled with, "I need to get a college degree," accounts for a large number of people taking creative writing.

Creative writing is as useful as most any other liberal arts degree. Most people with liberal arts don't work in "liberal arts." A large number are managers, business people, people in technical fields. They simply needed the degree to get a job, and "creative writing" is as useful a skill as any.

I think there are factors that artificially deflate the statistics. For one, you get a college degree to get a job. (The majority take the first secure opportunity that comes their way)

Most philosophy majors love philosophy, but never imagine being a professional philosopher. If you get a job, one that required a college degree, you've succeeded. I'd say a creative writing degree is just as good as most degrees.

Now how many people are risk takers? If you know you've got the talent, and the ideas, and you are willing to invest your time in writing, your chances are probably much much better than statistics would make you think.

But the fact is, people go for security and the easiest dollar. Writing is competative, so most people will take the first "sure thing" job they can, and they will write part time.

The last factor is talent. Most people who take psychology will not be psychologists. Most who take sociology will not be sociologists.

If you look at college choices, the first thing people ask is, "What do you like, what would you like too do?"

Well, the reality is most people don't think that far ahead, and they will lean towards majoring in something they have some affinity for. And in that same vein, you can say most psychology, sociology, philosophy, history...etc, majors all wasted their money. (If creative writing is a waste of money)

Nah, they got what they wanted, a college degree. But the vast majority are not working in a related field, only those who pushed further than a degree will generally take you. I can tell you flat out, I would never take advice from 99 percent of the people I took psychology with. They weren't that insightful. Majoring in psychology doesn't make someone a psychologist, though they might assume it does.

I learned how to write by reading my arse off for years .......book after book after book - 3-5 books a week, usually. I know what I like.


Thats why I get so mad when I pick up a book and hate it.


Did they ever try to read what they write? Do they read at all?


On Writing was the best thing Stephen King ever wrote .....I dont' read fiction so I haven't read too many of his books lately besides that one.


I have about 5 books on writing, most of which seem much more useful in the bookstore than they do once I get them home. I liked "If you can talk you can write." But, thats not really true, is it? A two year old can talk, but can they write?

jules said:

I definitely interpreted it as an admission along the lines of 'I'm teaching a subject that I'm not as good at as my students hope to become'. That's the only way that makes any sense, really.

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there's nothing wrong with this. as someone who knows and takes classes witha number of rofondly gifted children, i can say that it is possible to teach people who will be better than you are eventually.