Yay, the scene is done! Wait, no it's not...

Karen Duvall · Oct 24, 2008

Does this ever happen to anyone else? I just want to know I'm not alone here...

You're writing along, happy as can be with the scene you planned, and at the end you think you're finished and can go on to the next. But wait! The character achieved what he wanted, he made it through, got the whatever he was after, so now... Just a dog gone minute. What's the fun in that? This isn't the land of the happy people where characters have an easy time of it. Gah!

So I go back and rethink it again, making sure someone has to pay the piper. Someone has to mess up, or get messed up, or mess up someone else. I write urban fantasy so the tension is usually pretty high at all times. When I end a scene on an "ahhhh" note, I know I've screwed up. :rant:

Does this every happen to you? How do you fix it? Or do you plan enough ahead that the disaster is set so firmly in your storytelling mind that you don't have to think about it?

TheIT · Oct 24, 2008

Even in tense novels, sometimes there have to be breathing spaces. A character might achieve what he wanted in a particular scene, but that's all right as long as there's still some outstanding goal left to reach.

Have you read Jim Butcher's LiveJournal entries where he talks about ends of scenes? Answer to whether the character achieves the scene goal can be one of four options: Yes, Yes (but), No, No (but). Amusing (and informative) discussion.

Karen Duvall · Oct 24, 2008

Oh, yes, I'm definitely familiar with the 3 choices from the screenwriters bible (though I love Butcher, too, that's not where I learned it). Use them all the time. And I'm not talking about sequel bridges between scenes, but the pivotal events that progress the story. Sometimes I just motor on through and without realizing it, let the air out of my carefully inflated balloon. Is it just me who does this? Ugh.

2Wheels · Oct 24, 2008

Remember the movie Poltergeist? About two thirds of the way through it looks like the coast is clear, they'll all live happily ever after, but then you look at your watch and realise there has to be at least another 30 minutes coming.... so why not in a book too? Breathing space, but the reader knows they have another hundred pages to go.....

dawinsor · Oct 24, 2008

That happens to me too, Karen, and I've found no preventative, just correction.

In the same vein, when I revise I find a lot of places where I have the MC almost say something or do something rash and hold back because, I'm afraid, that's what I would do, timid soul that I am. I have to go back and look for all those places and make the MC say it and do it.

This is why I prefer revision to drafting. It's much more fun.

Karen Duvall · Oct 24, 2008

dawinsor said:
That happens to me too, Karen, and I've found no preventative, just correction.

In the same vein, when I revise I find a lot of places where I have the MC almost say something or do something rash and hold back because, I'm afraid, that's what I would do, timid soul that I am. I have to go back and look for all those places and make the MC say it and do it.

This is why I prefer revision to drafting. It's much more fun.

LOL! That's me exactly! Are we twins?

What's really funny is when I'm reluctant to go ahead with something, like an action or decision made by a character, that's when I know I should. It took a while for me to figure it out, but now it's kind of nice to have this "motivation geiger counter." He doesn't want to do it, huh? Well, he's gonna or I'll kick his ass!

I'm also a huge revision fan, and for the same reason.

Karen Duvall · Oct 24, 2008

2Wheels said:
Remember the movie Poltergeist? About two thirds of the way through it looks like the coast is clear, they'll all live happily ever after, but then you look at your watch and realise there has to be at least another 30 minutes coming.... so why not in a book too? Breathing space, but the reader knows they have another hundred pages to go.....

Ah, the fake ending. Love those. Very common in books, too. I use it a lot myself.

Phaeal · Oct 24, 2008

I tend to write very detailed working outlines, trying to get my increasing-tension and keep-'em-on-the-hook and escalating-mayhem ducks in a row before the official first draft. Not that some of the ducks don't get restless and fly off or change position or fail to deliver. In those cases, it's big-time revision for the too-flat scene when editing time comes.

TheIT · Oct 24, 2008

I run into problems when my characters agree too easily to a course of action. Makes it more exciting when someone says "Heck, no, I won't do that!" and tries something else, or when a character needs to be persuaded to go along.

I also have difficulty trying to determine how fast my characters learn and figure out what's happening. It's like playing a card game. Seeing the other person's hand up front leads to a much less exciting game.

What I've also found is that these sorts of problems can be tackled in second draft. Once I know all the cards, I can shuffle them around to make the game more interesting.

Karen Duvall · Oct 24, 2008

I don't outline like I used to, and one of the drawbacks is the problem I described. There are pros and cons for both, pre-plotting and writing by the seat of your pants. I find the seat of my pants approach inspires a much more vigorous imagination and unexpected plot twists. I've learned pantsing is more fun for me, in spite of its drawbacks.

TheIT, happens to me, too. If it's hard, it's probably the right choice.

tehuti88 · Oct 24, 2008

Well, I have times when I think I know how a scene is going to play out but it doesn't quite go as intended, as well as times when I honestly have NO idea what's going to happen (which is much of the time, seeing as I don't outline), but I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean. I don't usually fret over a scene that's already written, because I wouldn't write it if that's not the way it's supposed to go, though I do fret BEFORE it's written!

Then I write it out and sometimes am like, "Huh. That was not what I expected."

I've been getting this a lot lately.

dwellerofthedeep · Oct 24, 2008

The general problem I'm having with my current novel (the one measured on my picometer) is that it has become somewhat episodic. Basically each chapter or two forms a seperate portion of the story that completes a small problem. The larger problem is being referred to every now and then, but the characters actually look like they're getting somewhere all the time. In the end though, I think making it a progression makes the optimistic ending I have planned a bit more realistic.

Karen Duvall · Oct 24, 2008

I love it when a scene comes out different than expected. That's so fun! What I don't love is when everyone's satisfied with the outcome. Grumble, grumble.

And episodic novels can be great. I think all novels are slightly episodic anyway, with each scene being separate but connected in some way. I guess you'll know more when the draft is done, and according to your counter, dweller, it looks dang close!

Deccydiva · Oct 24, 2008

TheIT said:
I run into problems when my characters agree too easily to a course of action. Makes it more exciting when someone says "Heck, no, I won't do that!" and tries something else, or when a character needs to be persuaded to go along.

What a great idea!
*rushes off to look at WIP again*

dawinsor · Oct 24, 2008

Karen Duvall said:
LOL! That's me exactly! Are we twins?

Possibly. I'd take that!

dwellerofthedeep · Oct 24, 2008

Karen Duvall said:
I guess you'll know more when the draft is done, and according to your counter, dweller, it looks dang close!

I think part of the episodic feeling stems from the time difference between each subset of scenes (Usually a week or two). This novel is supposed to feel like time is passing. I should have it done by next Thursday or Friday. It's exciting!

That said, I don't like endings that are too neat. Ragged edges add to verisimilitude for me. Some things end, some things begin, some things go on.

ishtar'sgate · Oct 24, 2008

Karen Duvall said:
Does this every happen to you? How do you fix it? Or do you plan enough ahead that the disaster is set so firmly in your storytelling mind that you don't have to think about it?

Actually I have the opposite problem. I plan on things going pretty much okay for the protag but when I'm writing the scene I mess him up something awful.

Chasing the Horizon · Oct 24, 2008

I don't see how having a scene end well is a problem. I frequently let my characters have an easy time. If you don't have scenes end differently (some good and others not-so-good), wouldn't the story become awfully predictable?

I'm never surprised by the outcome of a scene because I outline very carefully. I don't always know how the scene will get from where it starts to where it ends, but I do know how it will end.

Karen Duvall · Oct 24, 2008

Hope To The Horizon said:
I don't see how having a scene end well is a problem. I frequently let my characters have an easy time. If you don't have scenes end differently (some good and others not-so-good), wouldn't the story become awfully predictable?

I'm never surprised by the outcome of a scene because I outline very carefully. I don't always know how the scene will get from where it starts to where it ends, but I do know how it will end.

You're right, and it kind of depends on the scene. There should always be a question of some kind left unanswered, or the story is just boring. So if a scene is ended on a positive note, as in the viewpoint character achieved his/her goal, there still needs to be a "but" at the end. I sometimes forget the "but." That's when I need to take another look and rework it.

AnnieColleen · Oct 24, 2008

Yep, I'm having something of this problem in my current outline. My best guess is that I know what's going to happen, so the characters go on autopilot and I have to go back and poke them to make sure motivations and what they're seeing, hearing, etc. and reacting to are believable and actually interesting. Usually once I've done that the complications appear!

TrickyFiction · Oct 24, 2008

I tend to have the opposite problem.
I get them in so deep I have to spend a day thinking about how the hell I'm going to get them out of whatever mess I made.

cooeedownunder · Oct 25, 2008

I have a similar problem (a bit like TrickyFiction) and posted it on another thread. I wrote the first three chapters in two days -quite long chapters....Yahoo, but have spent the past two weeks or so getting to the next page. It's like my MC has decided she wants to stay where she is, but she can't and infact the charachters made it quite clear she had to go to another page. She has a big problem but seems to be ignoring it and she waddling through quicksand, and going no where...she refuses to face the problem she has been given...and I want to throw her in the bin for tricking me into thinking she had a longer story to tell and the courage to face any problem.

ChaosTitan · Oct 25, 2008

Karen Duvall said:
So if a scene is ended on a positive note, as in the viewpoint character achieved his/her goal, there still needs to be a "but" at the end. I sometimes forget the "but." That's when I need to take another look and rework it.

There could also be an implied "but" carried over from the novel's over-arcing plot. I have a few chapters that end on a calm note, but because of what's still at stake in the big picture, it's understood that the moment of peace won't last for long.

Karen Duvall · Oct 25, 2008

Good point, Chaos. I use those, but probably not as often as I could. I have a scene coming up that's definitely going to be an "uh-oh" scene close, with some foreshadowing. It's calm but tense. I have to be careful of those because my agent has cautioned me that I tend to slow the pace too much when I use them.

Feathers · Oct 26, 2008

Hey Karen. Great to see you around! I don't have that problem much myself, but I think I know what you mean... one of those moments when someone stomps in and goes, "I'm mad at you!" and someone else goes, "Oh, please forgive me," and the other person says, "Okay," and they hug, and make up, and walk out with big smiles...everything is too neat.

Maybe I'm lucky. My scenes tend to behave.

-Feathers

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