I can't kill women~ Even if she's going to blast me to smithereens!

Darzian · Oct 23, 2008

If the MC doesn't have a weakness, reader interest is likely going to plummet rapidly. Perfect characters are, IMHO, absolutely boring.

What do you think of the weakness where the MC (male) is unable to kill females? I'd say the world setting is medieval-ish. I'm actually referring to the Wheel of Time here. This weakness is so ridiculous, that it's laughable. There are various females in the book, who are capable to killing the MC a hundred times over and worse, but the MC can't kill them! As a result, he loses numerous people around him, though no other MCs.

Also, post your own MC weaknesses.

My own: My MC doesn't really have a weakness himself- other than his sense of justice. Towards the end of the book, he is placed in a situation where he's got to save the lives of the government by using a sort of magic. BUT, this magic is powered by the souls of dead people. So, to save living lives, he's got to destroy human souls! His honor and sense of justice is the primary obstacle there.

MattW · Oct 23, 2008

What if the male character can't kill a woman who is threatening to kill other women? Where does this bizarre chivalry end?

Personally, a character that has that type of flaw reads as very immature, naive, and unrealistic.

ELMontague · Oct 23, 2008

My MCs tend to have lots of flaws and weaknesses. I think what makes them interesting characters is the way they have to deal with themselves. I like someone that is weak reigning over someone that is strong through wit and charisma. Or someone particularly strong overcoming a crafty leader that is smarter than he/she. I love underdogs.

Ruv Draba · Oct 23, 2008

This may not be an honour code so much as innate.

Boxing numbers among my real-life interests, and while I train with women frequently, I find that I need constant reassurance to train at full strength and aggression with them. A lot of my male colleagues feel the same.

This isn't contempt or cockiness -- some of the women I've trained with are darn dangerous! It's a genuine reluctance to throw full masculine aggression at someone other than another man and I'm betting that it's to do with how masculine aggression is socialised and provoked, rather than any special squeamishness.

It ticks off some of my female partners too, I can tell you! One grabbed me by the shoulders once and yelled into my face: 'MEAN IT!'

You can work past it, I've found, but it takes constant focus. If I lose attention, I back off again -- something I never do with guys of the same skill.

ELMontague · Oct 23, 2008

I do full contact TKD, but I'm a big guy. I'm far from the most skilled and my instructor/master can destroy me. I double his weight, but jeesh he hits hard. I've avoided sparring with the women because man muscle is different than girl muscle. (not a criticism of women at all, it's just different) I'm afraid of hurting them, even the ones that can kick my ass.

I could see a guy that would have emotional/psychic issues with hurting a woman. It might also be interesting to provide the MC with a forced weakness. As in, he literally cannot kill a woman, even if he tries.

Oddsocks · Oct 23, 2008

Darzian said:
My own: My MC doesn't really have a weakness himself- other than his sense of justice. Towards the end of the book, he is placed in a situation where he's got to save the lives of the government by using a sort of magic. BUT, this magic is powered by the souls of dead people. So, to save living lives, he's got to destroy human souls! His honor and sense of justice is the primary obstacle there.

Is that a weakness? Is that an obstacle that should even be overcome? Seems to me - and this depends on how your metaphysics is set up and all, but on first intuition - that letting people die but continue existing in some form is probably better than saving them at the cost of destroying some other people entirely. The people who he saves will die some day anyway...to find that those who went before them have been destroyed? What does your MC end up doing in this scenario?

As for the original question - if it makes sense culturally, I guess its ok. I'd like to see it pushed to the edges though - as someone mentioned, what if a woman endangers another woman? What if a woman poses an imminent threat to children? To children the MC knows personally?

Darzian · Oct 23, 2008

MattW said:
What if the male character can't kill a woman who is threatening to kill other women? Where does this bizarre chivalry end?

Personally, a character that has that type of flaw reads as very immature, naive, and unrealistic.

This also actually happens in said book. And the MC is still unable to kill the evil woman (even weirder is the fact that the evil woman is simultaneously torturing one woman whom he formerly loved and another whom he is in love with now).

BTW, the women in the WOT are very aggressive. I'd almost call it female domination

Darzian · Oct 23, 2008

Oddsocks said:
Is that a weakness? Is that an obstacle that should even be overcome? Seems to me - and this depends on how your metaphysics is set up and all, but on first intuition - that letting people die but continue existing in some form is probably better than saving them at the cost of destroying some other people entirely. The people who he saves will die some day anyway...to find that those who went before them have been destroyed? What does your MC end up doing in this scenario?

There is re-incarnation of souls in my world. And if the said governing body is destroyed, then the world is lost to a reign of terror and torture. All souls reborn will undergo eternal misery. Hence, it is necessary to stop the enemy, at the cost of departed human souls. Does this make more sense?

Yup, the people he saves will die anyway- but when they're reborn, they'll live in a normal world- not one dominated by an evil overlord.

Oddsocks · Oct 23, 2008

Darzian said:
There is re-incarnation of souls in my world. And if the said governing body is destroyed, then the world is lost to a reign of terror and torture. All souls reborn will undergo eternal misery. Hence, it is necessary to stop the enemy, at the cost of departed human souls. Does this make more sense?

Yup, the people he saves will die anyway- but when they're reborn, they'll live in a normal world- not one dominated by an evil overlord.

Yep, that certainly makes more sense. I'm still not absolutely certain I agree with your MC though - it's very hard to weigh eternal suffering against non-existence. Is anyone the MC knows going to get destroyed in this process? That's something I don't think I'd be able to resist under the circumstances...but maybe I'm just a cruel author.

Nice moral dilemma you've got for your characters to deal with, though - good stuff!

Darzian · Oct 23, 2008

Oddsocks said:
Yep, that certainly makes more sense. I'm still not absolutely certain I agree with your MC though - it's very hard to weigh eternal suffering against non-existence. Is anyone the MC knows going to get destroyed in this process? That's something I don't think I'd be able to resist under the circumstances...but maybe I'm just a cruel author.

Nice moral dilemma you've got for your characters to deal with, though - good stuff!

The MC has no way of finding out what souls he is destroying in the process. His mother died when he was young. His greatest fear is the accidental destruction of his mother's soul.

I'd thought of killing his girlfriend at the end to give him more incentive, but I love that character too much to do that.

Inkdaub · Oct 24, 2008

I can't stand it and it's one of my big peeves with Jordan's WOT.

MattW · Oct 24, 2008

Inkdaub said:
I can't stand it and it's one of my big peeves with Jordan's WOT.

Likewise. The women become overbearing (and all in the same way) and the men are turned into aww-shucks adolescents by every powerful woman.

tehuti88 · Oct 24, 2008

My MC is a hotheaded teenage girl. I think that sums up most of her weaknesses.

Seriously, it does, though she's also a bit too idealistic at times and believes in giving people a chance. This is one of her good points, but it's also one of her bad points, because it's always crushing for her to see that some people really can't be redeemed (and really should not be trusted).

And she really, really hates being called a little girl.

Sarpedon · Oct 24, 2008

I hated that weakness too. That whole series has so much bizarre sexual baggage. (The spankings and the vomiting and the braid tugging and all)

Its also not real medieval ethics. Chivalry was all about not killing 'ladies'. People had no problem putting villages to the sword, men, women and children. Chivalry was the rules of fair play amongst the members of the aristocratic class. Commoners didn't count because they were property.

Ok, I'll stop being Marx now.

I've got two stories in mind. One of my main characters weaknesses is that he's morally (but not physically) cowardly; He can't bring himself to make difficult moral decisions or challenge the corruption of those in power. He prefers the safe road of just doing his duty.

The other guy I'm not so sure about yet. He's a dude who lives on a space station. I guess gravity would be his weakness.

Darzian · Oct 24, 2008

Let's have more ideas for weaknesses! Even hypothetical ones that you haven't implemented yet.

I think the following are either over-used, unrealistic or non-appealing. Feel free to disagree.

1) MC can't stand sight of blood. This is particularly bad in sword and sorcery fantasy, where killing is typically frequent.

2) Weakness of killing women, as aforementioned.

3) MC coward throughout entire book. This sometimes works, but sometimes doesn't. If I see various nice characters all getting the sack, and if the MC has the ability to intervene but doesn't it's going to be annoying after some time. I could probably stick with him for a bit, but possibly not till the end.

Darzian · Oct 24, 2008

Sarpedon said:
I hated that weakness too. That whole series has so much bizarre sexual baggage. (The spankings and the vomiting and the braid tugging and all)

What do you mean by 'vomiting' ??? I'm not sure.

The spankings were tolerable. They were used as punishment, and usually by done by same-gender people. There's also an unnecessary amount of nudity in the WoT. Strange. If it's turned into a movie, then the editors are going to have some trouble keeping it PG-13

Mr Flibble · Oct 24, 2008

One of my MC's has the weakness of always seeing the best in people. Which isn't a good thing when they're evil...However it is one of her strengths too. She tends to be stubborn, and too hot tempered as well. Giving an all powerful sorcerer a black eye is not a good plan really.

One character's weakness is he's rather rash and impulsive. Good in some ways ( he never backs down from a fight for instance) but VERY bad in others. He would also rather let the world burn than break his word. Also not too good ( but also good in some instances). This man would not kill a woman, like ever, because he's been brought up that it's Not A good Thing, even if they're evil.

And one character's weakness is, well due to various things in his past he refuses to allow anyone to get close( ignoring the fact that most people would rather cut their own ears off than be in the same building). He makes everyone hate him because, as he says , 'it saves time' because everyone always ends up hating him anyway ( he has a nasty job to do and doesn't really care how it gets done) He would kill anyone ( if he was allowed to. He's pisse dthat he's not) if it got him what he wanted.

And after reading this thread I'm so glad I never bothered with WOT

ZeroFlowne · Oct 24, 2008

I think I'd be very happy if I never saw this particular weakness again in any form of fiction ever. It's overused and sexist. I hate hate hate "I can't hit a girl".

I strongly encourage you to find a new weakness - if it's a weakness that prevents your MC from killing a certain type of person, I suggest he has trouble killing men who remind him of his father.

Sarpedon · Oct 24, 2008

Oh, you didn't notice the vomiting? I noticed that people in the WoT, especially the Aes Sedai, vomit a lot. And for no good reason. I mean, sometimes they vomit because they've been doing heavy magic or something, which is understandable, but thats not the only time. How about that time where they receive a particularly bad piece of news, I think that it was the escape of that Rogaine guy, and one of them vomits. I don't know about you, but I've never vomited after receiving bad news.

Am I the only one who was bothered by all the vomiting?

ZeroFlowne · Oct 24, 2008

Wow. I was actually going to use a lot of vomiting in my writing, it's very visceral, and we all know how bad vomiting feels. I might rethink that now.

Darzian · Oct 24, 2008

Sarpedon said:
Oh, you didn't notice the vomiting? I noticed that people in the WoT, especially the Aes Sedai, vomit a lot. And for no good reason. I mean, sometimes they vomit because they've been doing heavy magic or something, which is understandable, but thats not the only time. How about that time where they receive a particularly bad piece of news, I think that it was the escape of that Rogaine guy, and one of them vomits. I don't know about you, but I've never vomited after receiving bad news.

Am I the only one who was bothered by all the vomiting?

Ah,yes- it doesn't happen often so I forgot. So much for the Aes Sedai serenity!

The most classic case would be vomiting after finding out that 3 sisters were stilled- I mean come on ----vomiting? Even passing out would've been realistic. And even worse, after the rebel Amyrlin seizes control of the Hall, they vomit!!!

Actually, I'd like to raise a discussion on this. Why does someone actually vomit? (other than health reasons). I would expect characters to vomit if they see a gruesome scene/horror scene or some such.

And after reading this thread I'm so glad I never bothered with WOT.

Iditosrus, I strongly recommend the first 2 books. Afterwards the story dulls, but the first two are BRILLIANT.

The complaints we're posting here arise because the series is so long that various actions become over used in the story itself.

Toothpaste · Oct 24, 2008

This inability to kill women is extremely predictable, and not in my opinion a true weakness. It's like when people go into interviews and they are asked what is their worst flaw and its "I am a perfectionist" or "I work too hard". Not being able to kill someone, especially women who traditionally men have had issues trying to kill in such fantasy, might get frustrating, might make his life a bit more tricky, but it comes from an outdated idea of honour.

I didn't much like the Pierce Brosnan's James Bond films, but I have to say there is one great moment in The World is Not Enough that was so refreshing in this respect.

*SPOILER* When we get to the climactic scene and he is chasing the french female villain up the tower, finally he is standing there pointing a gun at her and she says in her seductive way, "You can't kill me James, you'd miss me." And then he shoots her, saying, "I never miss." I almost cheered at that. It was James Bond killing a villain as he always does, and in this case it happened to be a woman. There wasn't this whole concern about hurting a girl, no long discussion, no single tear going down his cheek as he did it. She got her just desserts.

Anyway, Darzian, you are free to do whatever you want in your story, but you should understand that what you are proposing is very cliche, and quite the opposite of being a genuine weakness, at least in my opinion. I don't mean to be harsh in saying this, and do remember ANYTHING can be done if done well, but you have given yourself quite the challenge to make this setup palatable.

Sarpedon · Oct 24, 2008

In my time, I have vomited for one of 3 reasons:

Stomach Flu
Too much alcohol/other foreign chemical
Bad/spoiled food

Now, allegedly some people will vomit when confronted by foul odors, gruesome sights, after physically overexerting themselves, and due to physical stimulation of their throat or epiglottis. However, this is the limit of my knowledge of why we vomit.

Liosse de Velishaf · Oct 24, 2008

I don't think I look at this facet of writing in terms of "this/these is/are my character's weakness(es)." I cringe whenever anyone spouts that garbage about "all good characters have a flaw." or "all strengths should be balanced by a weakness". I can just imagine some shifty-eyed author tallying up the score on a whiteboard. "Weaknesses: 3, Strengths: 5." This leads to the "token weakness", such as Rand's inability to kill a woman... under any circumstances. As if he were to kill a woman for any reason, then that fragile balance between being able to wipe a town out of existence and being unable to harm the ladies would be lost. Jordan milks that "weakness" for all it's worth, because otherwise, why, he'd have no story.

Nakhlasmoke · Oct 24, 2008

I vomit if I have to clean up vomit, so yeah...lol.

I don't have a problem with the "I don't hit grrls" concept. What i want to see is when the MC is pushed far enough that in the end he or she does the things that their moral code dictates that they shouldn't, and their belief in themself is shattered.

Give me fall-out, baby.

I can't kill women~ Even if she's going to blast me to smithereens!

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

MattW

Company Man

ELMontague

Ruv Draba

ELMontague

Oddsocks

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

Oddsocks

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

Inkdaub

wrapped in plastic

MattW

Company Man

tehuti88

Mackinac Island Fanatic

Sarpedon

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

ZeroFlowne

Sarpedon

ZeroFlowne

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Sarpedon

Liosse de Velishaf

Nakhlasmoke

yes