Theme of the Week: Divine Goodness

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
This week's theme: Divine Goodness

It was sparked by something I read in C. S. Lewis' The Problem of Pain this morning:

"...it will, I hope, be safe to suggest that some conceptions of the Divine goodness which tend to dominate our thought, though seldom expressed in so many words, are open to criticism.

By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingness, and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness--the desire to see others than the self happy; not happy in this way or in that, but just happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, "What does it matter so long as they are contented?"

We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven--a senile benevolence who, as they say, "liked to see young people enjoying themselves," and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, "a good time was had by all." Not many people, I admit, would formulate a theology in precisely those terms: but a conception not very different lurks at the back of many minds. I do not claim to be an exception: I should very much like to live in a universe which was governed on such lines. But since it is abundantly clear that I don't, and since I have reason to believe, nevertheless, that God is Love, I conclude that my conception of love needs correction.

I might, indeed, have learned, even from the poets, that Love is something more stern and splendid than mere kindness: that even the love between the sexes is, as in Dante, "a lord of terrible aspect." There is kindness in Love: but Love and kindness are not coterminous, and when kindness (in the sense given above) is separated from the other elements of Love, it involves a certain fundamental indifference to its object... Kindnes consents very readily to the removal of its object--we have all met people whose kindness to animals is constantly leading them to kill animals lest they should suffer. Kindness, merely as such, cares not whether its object becomes good or bad, provided only that it escapes suffering. As Scripture points out, it is bastards who are spoiled; the legitimate sons, who are to carry on the family tradition, are punished. It is for people whom we care nothing about that we demand happiness on any terms; with our friends, our lovers, our children, we are exacting and would rather see them suffer much than be happy in contemptible and estranging modes. If God is Love, He is, by definition, something more than mere kindness..."

(from C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain, ch. 3)
 

Deb Kinnard

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
2,382
Reaction score
311
Location
Casa Chaos
Website
www.debkinnard.com
And yet Scripture says, "Thy lovingkindness is better than life." Lewis's words ring true, and urge us to seek God's kindness and perhaps even pray for it.

One thing that's always mystified me, 'cause I'm not terribly smart spiritually, is in the Lord's prayer when Jesus included the words "Lead us not into temptation." Does this mean that a loving God would lead us there? And that He should be beseeched not to?

Reads that way to me. I'd be willing to say He does lead us into temptation's path, for reasons of our growth, not our comfort.

Thoughts?
 

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
And yet Scripture says, "Thy lovingkindness is better than life." Lewis's words ring true, and urge us to seek God's kindness and perhaps even pray for it.

One thing that's always mystified me, 'cause I'm not terribly smart spiritually, is in the Lord's prayer when Jesus included the words "Lead us not into temptation." Does this mean that a loving God would lead us there? And that He should be beseeched not to?

Reads that way to me. I'd be willing to say He does lead us into temptation's path, for reasons of our growth, not our comfort.

Thoughts?

Great food for thought, Deb. Matthew 4:1 assures us that the Spirit does "lead us into temptation" (it says the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted)--but the distinction is that scripture also says God Himself never tempts us; the devil does that. But I do believe God leads us into that particular wilderness in order to strengthen us, particularly for ministry. (Jesus' leading was right after His baptism, and just prior to the start of His earthly ministry.)

Personally, I think it's an extension of the idea that God wants to instill from the start; that we don't "do" for God out of our own strength, but only out of dependence upon Him for divine strength. The 'strength of man' is a continual source of downfall in scripture; depending on it puffs up pride, and eventually leads to destruction. God wants us to depend on His strength, His words and wisdom ("it is written") to fight off temptation--and not only does He promise not to let us be tempted beyond our endurance, but His Spirit and ministering angels are sent to strengthen us afterwards (Matthew 4:11).

1 Corinthians 10:13

13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

James 1:2-3

2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,500
Location
West Michigan
One thing that's always mystified me, 'cause I'm not terribly smart spiritually, is in the Lord's prayer when Jesus included the words "Lead us not into temptation." Does this mean that a loving God would lead us there? And that He should be beseeched not to?
Well, as Pat said, the Bible explicitly says that God does not tempt us, so it can't mean that.

I'm a computer programmer and the NOT operator (!) logically reverses whatever follows it. Thus !True = False. So when I read "not into" I reverse whatever follows not: not into = away from.

So I read the verse as "lead us away from temptation", which puts it in a completely different light.
 

Deb Kinnard

Banned
Flounced
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
2,382
Reaction score
311
Location
Casa Chaos
Website
www.debkinnard.com
"Not into" = "away from", I like the sound of that. Praying for that from God's hand would seem a useful petition to make.

I'm not Catholic, but Catholics use a concept that appeals to me: the "occasion of sin." It's not the sin itself, it's the circumstances that surround it. If I purposely flirt with those circumstances, knowing there's a chance I'll be pulled into my area of weakness, am I not already going against God's plan for me? If I stay away from the occasions of sin as well as I can (and due to God's grace & continued teaching, that's a tad bit better than it used to be) and pray God to lead me away from the temptation spots I don't recognize, that seems like a good use of my prayer effort.

Thoughts?

:idea:
 
Last edited:

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
"Not into" = "away from", I like the sound of that. Praying for that from God's hand would seem a useful petition to make.

I'm not Catholic, but Catholics use a concept that appeals to me: the "occasion of sin." It's not the sin itself, it's the circumstances that surround it. If I purposely flirt with those circumstances, knowing there's a chance I'll be pulled into my area of weakness, am I not already going against God's plan for me? If I stay away from the occasions of sin as well as I can (and due to God's grace & continued teaching, that's a tad bit better than it used to be) and pray God to lead me away from the temptation spots I don't recognize, that seems like a good use of my prayer effort.

Thoughts?


:idea:

Yes, I've heard it described as how it's one thing to have temptation knocking at your front door; it's another to invite it in for the sales pitch over tea. ;)

And I think the "occasion of sin" may be something most groups of Christians might concur with, at least if they agree with Paul:

13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. (Galatians 5:13, KJV)
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
I love these weekly themes, Pat!

I'm sorry that I can't contribute to this one (I don't even know what it means), but good luck with the discussion!

I'll hold onto my ticket and queue up for the next time you have a humanistic value. :)
 

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
Thanks for your enthusiasm, Ruv! (And I really will get to that other post; I'm going out to dinner with my birthday-celebrating husband tonight, so it will probably be tomorrow. ;))
 

Sean D. Schaffer

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
1,433
Divine Goodness, I think, does not necessarily mean Divine Complacency. I know that some people -- myself included -- have entertained the thought that God just sits back and lets us do whatever we want so that we can be happy. But what I read in my Bible tells me something quite different.

The Bible says, in Proverbs, that "Open rebuke is better than secret love," and also, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of the enemy are deceit." It further tells us that "He that spareth the rod hateth his son," which obviously refers to correction.

Then, in II Timothy 3:16, Paul writes, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

I don't think it takes a scholar to see the implications of these various verses. God loves us, yes. God is good to us, yes. But like His thoughts are not our thoughts, so then His definition of goodness is not necessarily our natural human definition. God calls the shots; He makes the rules. So if God decides that goodness and kindness are synonymous with rebuke and instruction, then certainly the ultimate act of His goodness would be to tell us when we've done wrong and give us a chance to repent and turn back to Him.

So really, God's Divine Goodness can be defined this way: God wants us to be happy and right with Him, so He goes every distance He possibly can to bring us back to fellowship with Him ... even to the point of saying, "No." Just like He gave His very best in His death on the cross, so Christ is willing to say to us, in His Divine Goodness, "You need to change. Here's how to do it."

A good and loving God is, by the estimations of the Bible, One Who "rebukes and chastens the son he delights in." He is good, because He pulls out all the stops to bring us back to the right path. :)
 

Pat~

Luftmensch Emeritus, A.D.D.
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
6,817
Reaction score
2,975
I don't think it takes a scholar to see the implications of these various verses. God loves us, yes. God is good to us, yes. But like His thoughts are not our thoughts, so then His definition of goodness is not necessarily our natural human definition. God calls the shots; He makes the rules. So if God decides that goodness and kindness are synonymous with rebuke and instruction, then certainly the ultimate act of His goodness would be to tell us when we've done wrong and give us a chance to repent and turn back to Him.

So really, God's Divine Goodness can be defined this way: God wants us to be happy and right with Him, so He goes every distance He possibly can to bring us back to fellowship with Him ... even to the point of saying, "No." Just like He gave His very best in His death on the cross, so Christ is willing to say to us, in His Divine Goodness, "You need to change. Here's how to do it."

A good and loving God is, by the estimations of the Bible, One Who "rebukes and chastens the son he delights in." He is good, because He pulls out all the stops to bring us back to the right path. :)

Beautifully put, Sean. God, who created us with that hole in our soul that only He could fill, defines "happiness" for us, to us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.