Plot diagram, what's missing?

sunandshadow · Oct 21, 2008

This is a diagram of 'plot in general' which I am creating to go with the how-to-write book I have been working on. Please let me know if anything in the diagram seems confusing/wrong/missing.

Shadow_Ferret · Oct 21, 2008

um, yeah.

Let me study it a little more.

OK?

Sarpedon · Oct 21, 2008

I know!

Romantic Sub-plot!

MagicMan · Oct 21, 2008

Wow, so many things.
1) Antagonist may not be a person. It could be a leaking damn, a volcano, a hurricane, etc.

2) A lot of the emotional spectrum is missing from protagonist. Love, hate, duty, protector.

3) Bystanders may replace the protagonist/antagonist. Especially the antagonist, where a bystander becomes a greater antagonist.

Just a few thoughts.

Smiles
Bob

JimmyB27 · Oct 21, 2008

Woah - I hope there's some explanation in the text of this how-to book. It's a little cluttered and confusing. It would probably make sense if I took a bit of time to pore over it, but I think perhaps something as complex as a novel should be broken down. It looks confusing and off-putting to me.

Clio · Oct 21, 2008

JimmyB27 said:
Woah - I hope there's some explanation in the text of this how-to book. It's a little cluttered and confusing. It would probably make sense if I took a bit of time to pore over it, but I think perhaps something as complex as a novel should be broken down. It looks confusing and off-putting to me.

Thank the gods someone else is as confused as I am! I think this would put me off writing for life - but if it works for you, Sunandshadow, who am I to say? MagicMan must be a genius to penetrate this diagram - kudos to him.

FennelGiraffe · Oct 21, 2008

That, ummm, really doesn't correspond to the way I think of plot. I'm curious why you show the antagonist so large. It implies the antagonist is the single most important element, more important even than the protagonist. (Whereas I would say the protagonist and the obstacle preventing him from reaching his goal are equally important, while an antagonist is only one of several forms that obstacle may take.)

Do you really need one comprehensive image? At first look, all I really got out of it was a sense of complexity. It took considerable study for the relationships between specific elements to emerge from the clutter.

Julie Worth · Oct 21, 2008

Clio said:
I think this would put me off writing for life

Me too!

Telstar · Oct 21, 2008

Bah, i dont like it.

IceCreamEmpress · Oct 21, 2008

I don't see how this is a helpful diagram at all. It looks very confusing to me.

Have you read any of Edward Tufte's work? He's really the go-to guy on how to represent complex information visually.

Toothpaste · Oct 21, 2008

I worry also that including this diagram as part of a how to book, a new author might think that they MUST have all these elements in their novel "or else". For example, a "Tester". I'm not even sure what that is to be honest.

Personally, copying a diagram as an author is absolutely not useful for me, it's too prescriptive. Now it may work for some, and it may make sense to suggest "Here's an example of a diagram you could draw to help you, but you don't necessarily have to do it". In this case I would make up a story and then demonstrate how it can be fit into a diagram, instead of offering a diagram that tries to be all things to all plots. Everything in this one is just too non specific. Examples are always so helpful to get a point across.

Anyway, I found this very confusing, and slightly intimidating. And some words are just floating around in space like "Requirements", I'm not sure what is meant to be associated with what. You've also hidden "Goal" behind the wall (which I get), but that makes it look all tiny and stuff, when it should be a lot more prominent so we can see the path the protagonist is on.

Maybe you need to look at this more like a journey, an actual map, and not a flow chart. Have a beginning, have an end (the goal), and then show how external and internal forces affect the outcome.

job · Oct 21, 2008

Whatever floats your boat, of course ...

What I want to do is take the figures and arrows and rewrite the words.

sunandshadow · Oct 21, 2008

The diagram would definitely be accompanied by lots of explanatory text such as "What is a Tester?", and I see that the thing to do is break the diagram down into layers, such that each layer is simpler and the writer can build them up one at a time. It is not intended to be prescriptive or intimidating. But come on, "put me off writing for life" and "Bah, i dont like it."?! That kind of comment is neither fair nor useful as a critique of the first draft of a diagram. I certainly hope you wouldn't say anything like that about the first draft of a piece of fiction.

To respond to some specific questions:

- A Tester is like a threshold guardian, a mentor, a fairy godmother, any character who is capable of both punishing and rewarding the protagonist depending on whether the protag demonstrates a good character trait, usually by passing a test, or demonstrates a character flaw/fails a test. Also a tester can bee a minor villain who joins the protag's side after being defeated, or who gives up a useful treasure to the protag after being defeated.

- The antagonist figure is bigger than the protagonist figure because it is a general guideline in comics that the main villain needs to be taller, more muscular, and more mature than the hero, and also I have heard it stated as a general guideline of writing that the challenge put before the heroe should seem overwhelming, not fair or reasonable; a villain should seem, at least at some points in the story, like the worst opponent imaginable who will be almost impossible to defeat.

sunandshadow · Oct 21, 2008

job said:
Whatever floats your boat, of course ...

What I want to do is take the figures and arrows and rewrite the words.

Rewrite the words how, into what?

sunandshadow · Oct 21, 2008

FennelGiraffe said:
That, ummm, really doesn't correspond to the way I think of plot. I'm curious why you show the antagonist so large.

Toothpaste said:
Maybe you need to look at this more like a journey, an actual map, and not a flow chart. Have a beginning, have an end (the goal), and then show how external and internal forces affect the outcome.

This is a valid point - different people see plot quite differently. I don't see it as a journey, more like a state machine or a puzzle which starts all misaligned and you have to make one change at a time until with a final flip everything is aligned properly. And being a visual thinker, I adore when how-to-write books include any kind of diagram. The fact that I am the one writing this particular book sort of constrains me to write from my own perspective on what plot is and how it works, but I've done a survey of other existing perspectives and do intent to include that in the book - I think that when solving a complex problem like a novel it can be tremendously useful to take turns looking at the problem from several different perspectives.

cooeedownunder · Oct 21, 2008

I liked it better before the images appeared.

job · Oct 21, 2008

sunandshadow said:
Rewrite the words how, into what?

I can't help it. I look at this and I'm thinking the fuschia coloured one headed for the stomach (Desire) might be labelled 'Kaopectate',

and the squirmy one that goes under the lead wall (Deceit) might be relabelled 'cavities escaping gardol'.

The purple X becomes, 'here lies treasure'.

The blue lines headed out from the group at the bottom would get marked 'path of VD infection' and the orange arrow headed back towards them would be 'reinfection'.

The little golden people become 'Men', 'Women', and 'Handicapped'.

The empty oval, now designated 'false goal' would become, 'You are here'.

... what can I say. The mind works funny,

dianeP · Oct 21, 2008

I would find this confusing. Kinda like too much information, going everywhere in too tight a space.

What's missing? I would say clarity.

Good luck though.

Devil Ledbetter · Oct 21, 2008

When you come across a diagram like this, do not make any sudden movements. Show it no fear as you slowly back away.

Alphabeter · Oct 21, 2008

But its so colourful...and shiny.

Must see the shiny!

However, I agree that a romantic angle is missing.

2Wheels · Oct 21, 2008

It's a bit disturbing that the only line going from protagonist to the goal (behind the wall) is "deceit".....

I'm with the "got to break this out into simpler layers" school of thought.

JJ Cooper · Oct 21, 2008

The diagram above is like a form of 'mind-mapping'. It's my experience that some people will look at the diagram and understand it straight away (not necessarily agree, but understand). While others, who generally think in a linear or logical line of events fashion, will not be able to understand it. This may be why you are receiving the mixed responses.

My mind works in that linear way. I can't decipher that diagram for that reason. And, that's not saying the diagram is wrong in any way.

JJ

benbradley · Oct 21, 2008

It reminds me of the "family dynamics" models in all the codependency/dysfunctional family/inner child books I was reading 15 years ago. Was it in a Bradshaw book? Whatever, I recall a diagram of something like two parents and two children, with eight people in it - each of the four "real" people had an "inner child." Maybe each one had inner parents too, I forget.

Ben, the "lost child."

Smiling Ted · Oct 21, 2008

Have you sold any novels, screenplays, or short stories?
If you haven't, the diagram question is moot - if I shell out $20 for a "how to write fiction" book, it's going to be from a much-published author...and publishers know it. They want an author to have a platform (a verified area of expertise).

sunandshadow · Oct 21, 2008

Smiling Ted said:
Have you sold any novels, screenplays, or short stories?
If you haven't, the diagram question is moot - if I shell out $20 for a "how to write fiction" book, it's going to be from a much-published author...and publishers know it. They want an author to have a platform (a verified area of expertise).

*shrug* The fiction I write is mainly gay sf erotica, even if I had a list of publishing credits as long as my arm still most people wouldn't have read or want to read anything I wrote and I would run into lots of genre snobbery, and maybe even boycot by conservative or religious writers' groups. :Shrug:

But I don't really care what publishers think - if they don't want it I'll stick it up as an ebook on Lulu and Amazon. If people like it and find it helpful, they will recommend it to others and it will sell. If they don't like it and find it helpful, then it shouldn't sell. That's what ought to happen to all nonfiction books, regardless of their authors' credentials or lack thereof. I honestly find it disgusting that someone who can write good fiction but is total crap as a theorist or teacher can sell useless how-to books just on their name recognition.

Plot diagram, what's missing?

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Court Jester

Hoopy frood

In the mind warp pavilion

It's green they say

What? I have a title?

I create people

Hapless Virago

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Grateful for the day

In the end, it's just you and the manuscript

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Player of the Letters

Anachronista

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It's a doggy dog world

Ah-HA!

Impractical Fantasy Animal