Don't tell me not to kill my narrator!

[The Lonely One]

I've been told numerous times that "killing the narrator" is a no-no in first-person writing.

And, as with all things I've been told numerous times, I tend to ignore said advice.

Here's the argument: if you write in first person and you kill the narrator at the end, well then how did s/he tell the story to begin with? And also, stories from the perspective of a ghost are cliche and boring. Boring! RaaaAAR!

Okay my creative writing teachers never became dinosaurs at the end of their speeches...

I'm not one to have ghosts tell stories. Not usually, anyways.

But this "irresolvable issue" of telling a story where you die at the end is, I've found, entirely resolvable. The issue isn't if you die at the end, it's when you're telling it, hence, tense (excuse the rhyme).

In past tense, of course it doesn't make any damned sense. You're basically saying, "I died." Huh, really...

But in present tense, what's the prob, bob? I see no issue with telling everyone what you're going through AS you die, other than you really aught to be asking for medical help or something. But then again, anyone who narrates their own lives has issues to begin with.

So.

Why not, damn it?

Also, I'd like to hear from some of you who are willing to kill in first-person (you brave souls, you). I want to hear how you conveyed the impending death, perspective of the narrator and all of that. Pretty please.

[RedScylla]

99% of my current WIP is in past tense, told by a character who dies at the end. Of course, he's telling the story as he waits to be executed, and so the last two paragraphs or so are his thoughts as he's walking to the execution chamber, and so they're a cheat, but the rest of the book is told by him before he dies.

ETA: by all of which, I mean to say, "It's fiction. You can do whatever you like, as long as the reader is willing to play along."

[Clio]

Hmm. Philippa Gregory did this in her 'Boleyn Inheritance'. She has three narrators, Anne of Cleves, Catherine Howard and Lady Rochford. Catherine's execution is witnessed by Lady Rochford, so Gregory got out of that one neatly. However, she then has Lady Rochford narrating right to the moment the axe falls. While part of this worked for me - the present tense rendering it very immediate, and there was a vivid image of the wetness of Catherine's blood on the block - I couldn't help feeling it was odd somehow. I'm not the biggest fan of Gregory, but I thought it was brave to attempt this. But I'm not sure she pulled it off.

I'd be interested to know what others thought of this device, if they've read the novel.

[Williebee]

Kill 'em. Write it. Let your beta readers tell you if it was a bad idea.

IF it turns out it was, change it. It's your world, after all.

[Gillhoughly]

But in present tense, what's the prob, bob?

It's in present tense.

You'll have a difficult time getting an agent or the interest of an editor for that piece--unless you're really, REALLY good.

Beta readers will let you know about the last one. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[JoNightshade]

In general, advice given by writing instructors is given in the following spirit:

"I'm saying this is a rule because most PUBLISHED writers can't pull this off, and chances are you won't be able to pull it off either. So stay the heck away from it until you've got the basics down well enough that you no longer need my advice."

[jclarkdawe]

Having done it, my recommendation is don't. It's a hard sell and although I've landed an agent, it took a lot of work. And whether we'll find a publisher is another issue. And then whether I'll get any readers is an even further issue.

The book is written in first person, present tense (a hard approach to write). The book involved an 87-year-old man who was diagnosed with cancer and Alzheimer's. His wife had died several years earlier. He is trying to decide whether to die from cancer, Alzheimer's, or committing suicide (although he tries to define what he intends to be outside suicide). He heads into the hills camping for a week to decide with two horses (one riding and one pack).

The last scene by the narrator is him preparing a stew for dinner and riding off for a short horse ride. Originally the book was going to end there, but the lack of closure felt way too literary for me. Last scene of the book is a very short news article disclosing that hunters had found the body of an unidentified man.

As I said, I won't recommend it. But I had a protagonist who you know is suffering, so death is not necessarily bad. I'm in mainstream, edging towards literary for a genre. And the book is about dying.

Feel free to PM if you need more info.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[The Lonely One]

It's in present tense.

You'll have a difficult time getting an agent or the interest of an editor for that piece--unless you're really, REALLY good.

Beta readers will let you know about the last one. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Let's apply this to, say, a short, short story (let's keep it less than 2,500 words).

Let's say I've done this already :Shrug:.

Is present tense still all that horrible in the short stuff?

[RedScylla]

I recently had a present tense novella accepted for publication, but I did consider it harder to place. My story placement stats are typically between 0-4 rejections before acceptance, but that one scored a whopping 8 rejections.

[DeadlyAccurate]

Courtney Summers (http://courtneysummers.ca/cutbexcerpt/) pulled off 1st-person present tense, for what it's worth.

[Stunted]

I was actually thinking about this...

[Clair Dickson]

It can be done. If the story is compelling enough, then a reader can overlook the narrative, I think.

Movie: American Beauty

Book: Double Indemnity (note-- also written in past tense. Thought he guy is writing the events down come the last chapter.)

Wasn't Desperate Housewives narrated by a dead character? (According to wiki the show is narrated by a dead character.)

Story trumps all.

[eyeblink]

First person narrative is not necessarily written down, it could just as easily be an interior monologue, especially if in present tense. So yes, your narrator could die at the end. Whether it works or not in your novel is another question.

One recent YA example (and this is not a spoiler - look at the novel's title) is Jenny Downham's Before I Die - and yes, the narrator does die at the end.

In Alice Sebold's The Lovely Bones, the narrator dies at the end of the first chapter.

[Ms Hollands]

I read it a long time ago, so I'm not certain, but I *think* "The Awakening" by Kate Chopin is in this style. I completely got in her mindset and it's one of my favourite books. It might be worth checking it out in a library/bookshop and having a quick read of the ending to check. If so, I recommend you read it as it's a great example of a dead main character at the end, and if I'm right and it's written in first person, present tense, it's perfect for you to read.

[BfloGal]

I just murdered my first person MC at the end of a short story. I wasn't planning to--it just kind of happened that way. It seemed the most logical end to the story, and felt right. The story is told in the past tense, and she doesn't say she died, she just recounts her experiences that should lead to her death. So I guess the reader could imagine a rescue if he really wanted to.

Killing your main character is a risk--something that can kill your story or make it great, depending on how you pull it off. Aren't the greatest writers the ones who break the 'rules' in the most interesting ways? Not that I'm a great writer. Right now, I think I'm experimenting. And short stories may be perfect for this kind of experimentation, since if it doesn't pan out, you haven't wasted all the effort on a novel.

Was "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" a first person or just a tight third? I don't recall. But that, to me, is probably the best example of a MC death. A lot of people hate it, but it is still being read.

[JJ Cooper]

For me, present tense is annoying. By the time your book is released and finds its way to my library, the groovy stuff you describe will be in past tense and really annoy me.

We all know the publishing odds. Why make it all the more difficult by writing something that's 'dated' before the release?

JJ

[dpaterso]

I just wouldn't do this, it's not logical, unless the narrator is speaking to a scribe or into a recording or broadcasting device.

-Derek

[selkn.asrai]

In all honesty, I'm wary of present tense narrative; it jars me. I suppose it's because when I walk down the leaf-littered street, I don't think, "I walk down the leaf-littered street." And most stories are told in the past tense, so I suppose its a comfortable habit.

Killing the first-person narrator? I can understand its potential as a hard sell. A reader could feel cheated, in the same vein (but not nearly as offensive) as "But it was only a dream..." I'd be taken aback by some versions. But say it ended with the MC saying, "I'm dying." Mayhaps more of a reluctant question or sad admission than the melodramatic, overly unrealistic, "I die." (Polonius much?) Depending on my attachment to the MC, the former could be acceptable to me.

Somewhat off topic:

99% of my current WIP is in past tense, told by a character who dies at the end. Of course, he's telling the story as he waits to be executed, and so the last two paragraphs or so are his thoughts as he's walking to the execution chamber, and so they're a cheat, but the rest of the book is told by him before he dies.

ETA: by all of which, I mean to say, "It's fiction. You can do whatever you like, as long as the reader is willing to play along."


Red, what's his story like? That premise intrigues me.

[allenparker]

First person and character commits suicide in the end.

The tough part for me is to write in past tense for most of the book leading up to the death scene. The transition to present tense is difficult and cumbersome.

It is harder to do than I imagined when I first developed the idea. Whether I have done this well or not remains to be decided.

Responding to Gil's suggestion, if its done well, the reader nor the editor will mind. If it is done poorly, whether in first person or not, the editor and reader will still not want to have it.

I do admit, the whole process would have easier in third omni. It just wouldn't be as strong, IMO.

[Ugawa]

The Darren shan saga is a great example of how he got away with killing the narrator at the end (it was also past tense).

He said that the mc carried a diary round with him all the time and the story was acctually written out from the diary.

It's all very complicated but at the end some witch he knew filled out the end of the diary, how he was feeling ect.

Then he goes back in the past (before dieing) and gives the book to someone to give to himself when he was younger.

Confusing... but it was a great twist.

XX

[josephwise]

Stephen King has a short story, where a doctor crash-lands on a desert island and chronicles his self-cannibalism. It worked fine, but of course the narrator had to stop writing because he was busy eating his own hands. It wasn't in present tense. It was a journal.

And I believe there's a scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where there's an inscription in a cave that ends in "aaarggghhhhh" because the person writing it died while writing it.

In any case, I've seen this a lot. More so in short stories, but it's certainly been done in novels.

If you're writing something comedic, it's fine to end with, "Hoy! The Phebeletonian veranda-beast is eating me alive!"

But if you're writing a more serious tale, I'd recommend implying the death, but ending the narrative slightly before it occurs. For realism's sake.

[The Lonely One]

In all honesty, I'm wary of present tense narrative; it jars me. I suppose it's because when I walk down the leaf-littered street, I don't think, "I walk down the leaf-littered street." And most stories are told in the past tense, so I suppose its a comfortable habit.

Killing the first-person narrator? I can understand its potential as a hard sell. A reader could feel cheated, in the same vein (but not nearly as offensive) as "But it was only a dream..." I'd be taken aback by some versions. But say it ended with the MC saying, "I'm dying." Mayhaps more of a reluctant question or sad admission than the melodramatic, overly unrealistic, "I die." (Polonius much?) Depending on my attachment to the MC, the former could be acceptable to me.

Somewhat off topic:




Red, what's his story like? That premise intrigues me.

I understand the reader could feel cheated by a death, this is also a strong consideration when writing these pieces.

By the way, Robert Olen Butler published a collection of short stories about the last thoughts of a severed head, all present tense, no beginning or end to the sentence (no hard punctuation) begins and ends in the middle of a thought. It's a great book. Severed, I think it's called.

But back to what I was saying, I guess I'll describe my short story and you tell me what you think:

An Iranian man is standing atop the Azadi Tower and is waiting to jump to his death. His mother basically cut ties with him when she found out he was gay, his lover was imprisoned, and he has no other family, so he belongs to no one. He tells within the first few paragraphs what his intentions are, so if people don't like it they can stop reading early on. Throughout the story, he relates things he sees below to his childhood, a red balloon reminds him of the balloons he got with his mother as a child and how its freedom as if flies into the sun is the freedom he wants from Allah, who he relates to a father figure.

But he can't just have a father, he has to have a mother so when an aunt (or, I forget, it's been a while since I wrote it) notices who he is, she sends for his mother.

The goal, or plot, is for the character to get his mother to say he is her son three times before he dies. The last time she says it is as he has already jumped and lays dying atop the shattered windshield of a police car. It gives him the peace to finally leave the oppression of his life and enter into Allah's arms.

I submitted this story to a college literary magazine, but I think the subject matter may have been too much for them.

I'll submit something less in-your-face this year to test my theory and see if it gets in.

P.S. I don't get the opposition to present tense? After a few paragraphs it's the same as any other. Written well, I've never had trouble reading present tense if the story is interesting. Shrug.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Present tense generally feels like a trick and it calls your attention to it. I think it works better for a short story than for a novel, especially when the novel is not written in diary or transcript form.

That said, I think it probably works fine for your story, which sounds like an inward narrative/stream of consciousness at a moment of crisis.

[Novelhistorian]

I can't stand present tense for an entire novel, though I've seen it work in sections in which the author uses it to contrast time and place with the main action. Other authors achieve that contrast without using present tense.

As for killing a main character, I can think of two examples off the top of my head. All Quiet on the Western Front is first-person, and the first time I read it, I was shocked on the last page, so convinced was I that Remarque wouldn't dare break convention. But the book wouldn't have worked as well otherwise. Nicholas Freeling's Aupres de ma Blonde is third-person, but the main character, who had anchored an entire series, was murdered.

[OremLK]

Please don't write an entire novel in first person present tense. It is distracting and annoying.

Please don't kill your first person narrator. As you already illustrated, it makes no sense. Also, try not to kill your main character (if you have just one, or one predominant protagonist). If you've made me care about him and made the whole story about what happens to him or as a result of him, and then you kill him, I will never read another story by you, because I won't trust you anymore as an author.

[Dana-Lynn]

I don't get the opposition to present tense? After a few paragraphs it's the same as any other. Written well, I've never had trouble reading present tense if the story is interesting. Shrug.


I completely agree with this. I have read a ton of published novels in first person present tense, and liked them, so what's with the whole past tense is better than present tense philosophy that seems to be resonating here? How can you say it's bad to write in present tense versus past tense if there are TONS of PUBLISHED books out there written that way?
(Don't crucify me! It's an innocent question and I'm just curious! :D No maliciousness intended. . . .) ;)


I wonder if it's genre that makes the difference?


I only read YA, and there's no question that first person is what YA readers prefer, but present tense also seems to be quite popular with that genre.


I went to the Library recently and checked out 11 YA books. All of them were written in recent years (the oldest being 1999, the most current being 2007), all in first person, and 5 of the 11 are present tense.


In my own writing, I have discovered that I have a huge knack for present tense. I struggled soooo much with past tense in my first YA novel, because I kept slipping into present tense all the time without meaning to. For the second YA novel, I've been writing it all in present tense, and haven't slipped into past tense once so far. LOL!

[OremLK]

Genre does make a difference. First person present tense is in vogue in the literary community. As for YA, well, it has genres too, does it not? I don't read YA too much, but out of the examples I've seen (mostly speculative fiction and my wife's YA chick lit) none have used first person present. I'd be interested to know the genre of the books you've been reading.

I'm just speaking for myself when I say that present tense is very annoying, but I've heard many others say the same. The real issue, I think, is that you will be eliminating readers by using present tense, while you will probably not be if you stick with the more traditional past tense. I consider it a bad idea to eliminate readers.

But once again and for the umpteenth time: Any rule can be broken, if you understand and are willing to deal with the consequences. Or: If it works, it works.

[Sassee]

It works or it doesn't. Write it and find out, or if it's already written, submit it to the chopping block (SYW) or a few betas.

[Dana-Lynn]

The real issue, I think, is that you will be eliminating readers by using present tense, while you will probably not be if you stick with the more traditional past tense. I consider it a bad idea to eliminate readers.


I don't think that's true for younger (YA) readers, though, and present tense is becoming increasingly popular with YA as time goes by.



THIS quote below sums it up VERY nicely :

:D

I think there are at least two clear reasons why present tense novels resonate with younger readers.

Let's face it, current generations are very much used to immediate gratification ... video gaming, instant messaging, text messaging. They like their information current, right now, and right here! History is a bore to many. Let's find out what happens now! So, that's one reason present tense works, I think. Teens are used to immediate and close quarters action.

Second, much of ya literature has to do with adolescent angst issues. These coming of age stories are laden with internal conflict and coming to grips thinking. Again, present tense makes the reader feel like they are right there, inside the protagonist's noggin during all the stress.

Sure, well written third person novels can achieve the same result. But teens want to "be" the main character more than most, I think. They want to know how others like themsevles have solved stressful situations. I think adults are more focused on plot and on interesting and quirky characters, characters less likely to be emulated. Adult readers may tend to see third person main characters as, well, third persons. They don't necessarily want to "be" the protags, just relate to them.

Seems to me anyway. Ya lit is loaded with first person and present tense books.

[IrishElim]

Hm, yup, Im killing my first person narrator, and he tells his tale in the present tense. I dont see the big deal about doing it in the past tense though.

I beleive Kevin Spacey narrated over his life after he was dead in 'That Movie I Won't Name' in case you haven't seen it, ha.

[The Lonely One]

Please don't write an entire novel in first person present tense. It is distracting and annoying.

Please don't kill your first person narrator. As you already illustrated, it makes no sense. Also, try not to kill your main character (if you have just one, or one predominant protagonist). If you've made me care about him and made the whole story about what happens to him or as a result of him, and then you kill him, I will never read another story by you, because I won't trust you anymore as an author.

As I said before, my character's intentions to kill himself are clear within two grafs. Some readers might be sensitive enough to feel betrayed by the second graf of a short story, but that's awfully fickle.

The point of the story then becomes to get his mother back as the clock runs and outside forces begin to hasten the process (e.g. police coming to stop him).

If so many people say present tense annoys them, I won't say it doesn't. But I still don't get it; it's just a word tense. The story is the same, it's just happening more immediately (to avoid the "I'm already dead" thing).

My number one belief in fiction is that no matter what people's rules are, if they read a well done book or story (which they think is well done) that breaks those rules, they won't even notice. And if they do notice, they'll think, "huh, I guess it can work."

When I get a chance I'm going to post a short excerpt of Butler's work, which I mentioned earlier. Just to see what reaction you guys/gals have to it (my story isn't entirely dissimilar in style).

[Alpha Echo]

My story placement stats are typically between 0-4 rejections before acceptance, but that one scored a whopping 8 rejections.

Umm, what I wouldn't do for a "whopping 8" rejections.

Between my two full manuscripts, I've received about 60 - about 30 queries sent out for each and all, ultimately rejected (and only one partial request).

So um, not to derail this thread, but I'm jealous.

Congrats, though seriously. :tongue

:D

[batgirl]

Brother to Dragons, Companion to Owls, by Jane Lindskold, an sf novel from a few years back, is all in present tense, first person. It's narrated by a mute autistic girl. I read it in gulps, and didn't even realise until afterwards that it was present tense. Because the story dragged me along.

What's with the need for realism in whether a narrator could physically be narrating? I thought we'd got past that since the 1800s. Do we still have to pretend that first-person narrators are actually telling or writing the story down somehow, and then the manuscript survives in a copper cylinder or mysterious jade casket or something? I mean, that was one of the funnier things about epistolary novels like Pamela (Samuel Richardson) or Lovecraft's horror short stories, that the narrator took pen in hand after nearly being ravished by the villain, or kept pen in hand while being dragged away by beasts from the uttermost chasms of unknowable space.
I love epistolary novels, but I wasn't aware they were still the standard.
-Barbara

[Alpha Echo]

I actually agree with those that said first person present tense is annoying. Cody McFadyen uses it, but uses it well. It's the first time I've ever enjoyed it.

[Gillhoughly]

Is present tense still all that horrible in the short stuff?Probably not, simply because it IS short. No reflection on your own writing, but that's usually as much as most people can stand of the device.

There are going to always be exceptions to all rules, but as has been stated, those exceptions are often accomplished by writers who have a solid grasp of the basics.

Until you can prove to an acquiring editor or agent that you can write, period, it's a good idea to keep the special literary effects in the background.

Get established first, make your publisher some money, then haul out the cute stuff to impress the hoity-toity literati.

Waaaaay back in the mists of time I had my 1st person MC conked on the head halfway through the story, so he shifted to present tense to reflect that state of mind. It seemed to work, the story sold, I spent the money, took my bows, grinning all the time at my brilliance for pulling it off.

Fifteen years later I looked at that story again and was horrified. What the heck was I THINKING??? People read this? Someone paid me money for this?? What drugs was the editor on at the time?

I'm amazed I still had a writing career after that one came out.

I've since done a rewrite, fixing what was seriously broken. The story will go up on my website as a freebie to my readers, only now I won't be wincing over its more dramatic flaws.

:eek:

[Paichka]

Hmm.

In my novel WIP, I kill off one of the two main POV characters -- the story isn't told in first person though, so that might not qualify.

I had a short story where at the very end, the first-person narrator died. I submitted it to a mag, and got a lovely rejection saying that the story was wonderful, but the ENDING didn't work. So I rewrote the ending to be more ambiguous, resubmitted to the same mag, and got accepted. It's a much stronger story now, and I have to admit I was never really happy with the original ending. It seemed (even to me) as kind of a cop out.

So sometimes the story just doesn't SUPPORT that kind of ending. The trick is determining when that device is necessary to the plot & spirit of the story, and when it's just a gimmick.

[Paichka]

Hmm.

In my novel WIP, I kill off one of the two main POV characters -- the story isn't told in first person though, so that might not qualify.

I had a short story where at the very end, the first-person narrator died. I submitted it to a mag, and got a lovely rejection saying that the story was wonderful, but the ENDING didn't work. So I rewrote the ending to be more ambiguous, resubmitted to the same mag, and got accepted. It's a much stronger story now, and I have to admit I was never really happy with the original ending. It seemed (even to me) as kind of a cop out.

So sometimes the story just doesn't SUPPORT that kind of ending. The trick is determining when that device is necessary to the plot & spirit of the story, and when it's just a gimmick.