"The Market" - what do you think it wants?

The only advice I've consistently gotten in over 30 years of trying to figure out the market is "Same, but different."

And if anyone figures out what that means, they'd best bottle it 'cause they'll make a mint off the rest of us who want to know.

Seriously, what we have now is what was the market 6-18 months ago when things were bought by the editors. What is being sold today will become the market in another 6-18 months. It's totally impossible to predict, so don't think about it. Pick the story that makes your heart sing and write it.

What does the market want?

Me.

Actually all of us--if we can produce a good, well-written story. The rest will come on its own.

Page count: I'm reading 30k, no more than 50k *and* I'm reading 50K-90K...which is it?? Just depends on the agent?

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I can't speak in absolutes, but as I understand it adult sci-fi/fantasy novels should be above 80K words. (and for a debut author, below 120K). If you're talking YA novels, then yes, it's ok for lower word counts, but I still wouldn't go below 50K.

Just what I've gleaned from various conversations.

Tasmin21 said:

I can't speak in absolutes, but as I understand it adult sci-fi/fantasy novels should be above 80K words. (and for a debut author, below 120K). If you're talking YA novels, then yes, it's ok for lower word counts, but I still wouldn't go below 50K.

Just what I've gleaned from various conversations.

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I keep trying different things. I figure if I can stand to write it, people will like to read it.

I'm contemplating a 50-90k Urban Fantasy set in the wilds of the Old West.

I gave up on my Cold War erotic high fantasy, high latitude, 110k, high-heel-oriented space-age bachelor-pad thermonuclear war fantasy after it turned out to be very confusing for the average reader and metaphysically exhausting for me. But everybody is not confused by the Old West, right?
People ride here and there and they see some things that just don't look quite right, right? So the next thing they know something else comes along that needs fixin' and that's a saga or two in the making. But not too much...just for 50-90k. Not a whole lot to fix, maybe, out there in the proto-dustbowls:

Oh when the fences come down
And the moon comes up
Ya just sorta know its time to eat sup
Er..................

First off, if you write for "the Market" you're doomed to fail. What's out and popular now, was purchased 1-2 years ago, and written probably a year before that. So any trend you write that's popular now, will likely be over by the time your book is ready to submit. Instead, you want to keep an eye on the market to see what's been done so you know what to avoid, what's similar to yours and where there might be a void a story idea you have could fill.

If you don't like popular books, don't write one like it. Write what YOU like to read. If you've never read a romance, it's unlikely you'll be able to write one that will be fresh to the genre and have the things romance readers look for.

I write YA fantasy myself, and just sold my YA fantasy trilogy. YA fantasy is indeed a hot market right now. If you read YA and enjoy YA, then by all means write YA. But if you're looking at YA because it's "an easy sell" you're in for a shock. YA is not easy to write. You need the right voice for it. You need to understand what makes a YA novel YA. YA readers won't cut you any slack if the book doesn't grab them from page one. The only way to understand YA is to read a LOT of YA.

YA often covers both the YA and MG markets, which is probably why you saw such a wide word count range. Typical word counts for MG is 30-50K, YA is 50-70K. There are books that go above and below these ranges, but for first time writers, it's smart to aim for these guidelines. Bottom line with YA word count...it has a lot more to do with pacing than numbers. A book that hooks you and never lets go can have a higher word count.

If you suck at being hip, don't try to write hip, ESPECIALLY for YA. Kids have built in BS detectors and they'll know instantly if you're trying to talk down to them or pull one over on them.

I don't know who told you to write only male protag's but that's silly. Write the protag that appeals to you and makes a good story. Boys do tend to prefer male protags, but boys will read a great book just like anyone else, especially if there's a male character they can relate to in the story. For adult novels, men will read either. I can’t really say much about a lesbian relationship. If it’s a good story and the novel is about more than just “two gals get it on” then you’re probably fine. Some readers will be turned off, some turned on, and others won’t care one way or the other.

You can do whatever POV you want as long as it works. It depends on your style. I prefer first person, but others prefer multiple third person POVs. Do what works for you and the story.

I’ve heard that epic fantasy is on the decline because there's nothing new being done with it, and agents/editors are bored with the same old same old. But any author who writes an epic fantasy that’s fresh and original stands as good a chance as anyone at selling it. It’s all about the idea. People who like epic fantasy want to read more, but they want to read things like it, with a new twist.

A marketable book is one that's well-written, with an original idea, a great voice and a story and characters you just want to spend time with. This book can be anything. Don't try to fit the market. Look at what you like to read and write the stories that get you excited. Write the ones you'd buy if they were on the shelves. Trust me, if you write a YA fantasy just because someone said they were hot right now, the odds of you having the market knowledge and passion to write something that will hook readers is pretty slim. Same with any other genre. YA is my market, and while I can sell there, if I tried to write a Regency Romance, I'd fail miserably.

Write what you love to read. I can't stress that enough.

I have found everyone on these boards to be incredibly helpful. However, answers to your questions can and should only come from you. Writing, and all it involves, is very hard and extremely consuming work, and the burden is all on you. Unless you're writing somewhat formulaic books, you don't write about what's trendy at the moment. You do heavy thinking and research and do your best to conclude what will be trendy a year or two from now. Some of the basics for all books -- you refer to word count (not page count), theme, characters, setting -- you have to develop on your own. You really must. We, at least I, have no idea what you might be good at, what you enjoy writing, why you write, and heck, not even who you want to write for.

This may be a little harsh, but I think you have to take these matters into consideration if writing is to be your life -- at least a big part of it.

Good luck.

Zellie said:

Setting: urban fantasy seems to be The Thing and I feel like steampunk is either going to explode or already has and I'm just not looking in the right places, High Fantasy seems to be on the decline

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Hey, I hope urban fantasy will become the next thing, because I adore writing it.

I'm gonna say don't bother trying to write with fads and trends. Aside from the ideas already mentioned, like the fact that what we see in the market was bought months ago and we don't know the future market, other people will obviously be thinking the same thing. This means that you, along with other people all writing the same specific kind of trend in hopes of catching on the train are all competing against each other and that which was already published, which may already be a declining trend when it's all said and done. I'd bet it'd be harder to get picked up. Can't prove that, but it's something I'd think about.

mscelina said:

What does the market want?

Me.

Actually all of us--if we can produce a good, well-written story. The rest will come on its own.

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I agree with everything but the last part. Quality well-written stories do not get the attention they deserve without oceans of marketing and promotion. Well-promoted tripe will win out over unpromoted quality product every time.

I'd rather write what I'm interested in than guessing what others want. Some people like my MC's name, others don't. Who knows? I've got more the mind to just do work and put it out there.

Straka said:

I'd rather write what I'm interested in than guessing what others want. Some people like my MC's name, others don't. Who knows? I've got more the mind to just do work and put it out there.

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Obviously no one can say that what you want to do is wrong, because it's not, IMO. However, I do hope you realize that by only satisfying your needs, by ignoring what the public, agents, and publishers need, want and are open to, you are completely ignoring the business of publishing. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do.

scope said:

Obviously no one can say that what you want to do is wrong, because it's not, IMO. However, I do hope you realize that by only satisfying your needs, by ignoring what the public, agents, and publishers need, want and are open to, you are completely ignoring the business of publishing. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do.

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A fair point. To clarify, I have been working my making my WIPs more commercial in their structure. So I'm not ignoring the requirements of the the publishing industry. I was referring more to coming up with the concept of the work. I don't sit back and think, "Does the public want to hear about a zombie / vampire romance?"

I don't form ideas based on guessing at what I think people want to read, because I simply don't know. I'm of the opinion that its impossible to know what the public really wants. Look at the Twilight series, made a lot money and she got rejected harshly by agents and when people thought vampire romance was dead.

I just write what is appealing to me within the notion of making it marketable. With that said if I do get an agent and they had suggestions to make it more marketable, then I will certainly consider incorporating them. Same with a publisher.

I don't think anyone here is saying ignore the market and write for your needs only. Of course the market is important and you need to know what's out there. But if you only write to capitalize on a current trend or write what you think people want, the odds of actually accomplishing that are slim because there's no passion in the work. Plus, you'll always be behind the curve. By the time something is hot, editors are moving on to the next fresh idea on their desks.

Paranormal romance is hot right now, so does that mean we should all go out and write one? Of course not. But if you enjoy paranormal romances and think your idea is different from what's being done, then write a paranormal romance. Or if you also write paranormal suspense, you might decide that paranormal romance is getting saturated, and you might do better next year with the paranormal suspense instead. That's a great way to use an understanding of the marklet to improve your chances at publication. That's a LOT different from writing for a trend.

What the public wants are great stories that will entertain them, or fill whatever need they happen to have. There's no way of knowing what that is. That's why small books no one has ever heard of suddenly become huge bestsellers, and books by major authors unexpectedly languish.

What agents and publishers want are books that the public wants. Certain things have been proven to work, like good writting, great hooks, interesting voices, great pacing, thrilling plots, etc. We know these work, so we use them. But we can all put our own fresh spin on them.

Hey, Zellie, I knew exactly what you were getting at from your original post and that you're not looking to chase trends. Smart writers don't do that, for all the reasons repeated on this thread. The brilliant thing you're doing is to acknowledge that trends do exist, and you're analyzing what they are, why they are, will they stay, how will they change, etc. That's how you stretch your imagination. And that's how great books are born. So you're doing it right, IMO. Bravo!

It's a fun discussion to have, too. We can all get out our crystal balls and roll them around the room, peering at them one way and then the other to try and guess what readers want next. This is how creativity is sparked and ideas are generated. It's the smart way to brainstorm your next story idea.

I like to look at what I call micro trends. You see the seed of an original idea start to spread bit by bit, and then it picks up steam and either explodes, or wanes. Kind of like going to Vegas. When you start a new book, you're laying your bet that it will be the one. At least with writing fiction you can research first. And then to really make it interesting, the idea excites you, too. You'll write it no matter what. But it's that spark of inspiration that's so cool, and then you run with it.

I've been seeing the micro trend of supernatural thrillers lately that deal with ancient Myan and Aztec myths, apocolyptic prophesies, the rebirth of dead gods... Where will they go? I don't know, but I sure want to read these books! I'm not interested in writing one, but as a writer of urban fantasy, this kind of stuff thrills me to pieces. It might be too narrow a market to last long, but you never know. Who'd have guess vampires would be such a big deal? Certainly not me. I've never been a fan.

I think the urban fantasy is here to stay, and it will hybridize. All genres are crossing each other these days, and fiction has never been so exciting! I'm currently working on a steampunk urban fantasy set in an alternate history NYC. I'm having a blast writing it and my agent's excited about it, and the one major publisher who knows about it is eager to read it when it's done. Will this sub-sub genre be the next big thing? Vegas, baby. It's a gamble. And it's okay because I'm having the time of my life writing it.

Anyone else spot some interesting micro trends lately?

At least one YA house has said it was moving away from YA traditional fantasy (Razorbill). Or maybe that was a polite way of rejecting my YA traditional fantasy. But that manuscript has been on submission since January, and so far, only RB got back to us. The others? Silence. I'm thinking that YA traditional fantasy (along the lines of STARDUST for teens) is slowing, or even stopped. (Or maybe my book just isn't all that.)

I'd like to see more stories about ghosts, unusual stories, atypical ones. The Heart Shaped Box is one I haven't read yet and I really want to. Another new and different one is Neil Gaiman's THE GRAVEYARD BOOK about a boy raised by ghosts in a graveyard, kind of like Rudyard Kipling's Junglebook. Talk about original! I wish I'd come up with that idea. I have ghosts in the book my agent is shopping, but they're not all that interesting and don't do much. I'm hoping to give them more purpose in future books in the series.

Zellie said:

So, what do YOU think the market wants?

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I don't know what the market wants but as a reader I want something NEW. The ghosts thing was a good suggestion, it's not done too often in SFF. I'd also like to see more cyborgs as main characters (a la Keeping It Real). As far as the supernatural goes... I'd like something other than European and Native American based mythos. Give me something that's not already saturating the hell out of my bookshelf.

Karen Duvall said:

I'd like to see more stories about ghosts, unusual stories, atypical ones.

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Mine has the souls of people from Hell fighting for the Evil Overlord. Does that count? (Umm...they're not really transparent- they're very very physical)

No one has the faintest idea what's going to be a big seller a year from now. Not agents, not publishers. If they did, all publishers would be multibillionaires and there'd be no need for agents at all.

Mostly what they're looking for is whatever was hot last month. Anything else is guesswork and hopeful thinking. As others have said, you might just as well write what you enjoy reading, because "The Market" is nothing but a fast-moving phantom, always just beyond everyone's grasp.

Characters: I was told in a writing workshop to only write male protagonists.

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Did they say why? Cos that sounds like bollocks to me.

My next question is how to write fantasy for a male audience when two central protagonists are female. And how hard will it be to sell if the two females fall in love with each other by the end of the story?

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Most blokes I know would love a bit of girl on girl in their fantasy! Writing for a male audience is very similar to writing for women - write a bloody good story.

I've also been told in writing workshops to ONLY have one point of view throughout the novel.

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Again, sounds like bollocks to me. ( I suppose unless you're doing it first person). Have any of the people telling you this seen how successful a certain GRRM multi viewpoint series is? Many, many fantasies have more than one POV. The trick is making it work.

I'd say - write the kind of book that you want to read but can't find on the shelves. Because you are also the market, right?

Characters: I was told in a writing workshop to only write male protagonists. Um. No. Besides, there seem to be a lot of books with ass-kicking female leads. >_>; My next question is how to write fantasy for a male audience when two central protagonists are female. And how hard will it be to sell if the two females fall in love with each other by the end of the story? I've also been told in writing workshops to ONLY have one point of view throughout the novel. But most books I've read shift from character to character??

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Not sure what workshop you went to. I see no reason for the 'only male protagonists', in fact sounds like the person who told you that could be slightly biased. I, as a male, have no problem with a story where to females fall in love with each other.

As for the POV, a writing group I'm part of talks about this a lot with new people who have heard this. Our answer has been it depends onthe book, how your writing it. Generally stay in one POV per scene, don't change as it confuses the reader, or one POV per chapter, don't have twenty POVs.

Hope that helps.

Zellie, in my experience, fantasy readers hunt assiduously for great fantasy. When they can't get it, they buy mediocre fantasy instead that at least reminds them of some great fantasy they once read.

My strong suggestion is that you write great fantasy., not mediocre fantasy that's remniscent of great fantasy Here's how you do it.

Page count: Pack as many good ideas for character, plot, setting as you have into the smallest possible space. Most big FSF novels are mediocre at best. Fantasy authors are notorious for over-writing and under-editing -- they're cynically exploiting what is effectively a niche market who have nowhere else to go. They pad mediocre plots with mediocre setting, have mediocre characters angst for pages about mediocre issues... Great fantasy novelists can all write great fantasy in 50-70K; the mediocre ones can't. So write small and only expand once you write great.

Themes: Themes are based on character arcs. Fantasy is about characters transforming the world or being transformed by it. Therefore write complex, rich, contradictory, memorable characters and take them credibly to states the reader thinks is impossible. Any time you do that, you will have a boffo fantasy theme.

Characters: Please see themes. Age and gender matter more to children than adults; most adult fantasy readers will cope with any age and gender if the character works. So write complex, rich, contradictory and memorable characters.

Setting: The job of fantasy is to enchant. You can't enchant by using derivative settings, so be original. When certain settings seem to be 'on the rise', it's because authors are copying one another. When they're 'on the decline' it's because readers are tired of that. The only reason to be on this treadmill is because you're committed to writing mediocre fantasy. Don't copy. Be original. Create places that lure, haunt or repel your readers. Ensure that these places set mood that suits your story. Do that and readers will jump upon you.

Hope this helps.