Viewpoint question

TheAntar · Sep 24, 2008

Hey there,

I have a dilemna. As you might expect.

I have either two, or three, viewpoint characters in my current WIP. I think I can make the story better by using three viewpoint characters, but it will certainly be harder to do than using two. Is it worth working in three viewpoint characters (even if one dies before the halfway point?)

Second, and the real reason for the post, is this. Is using 1st-person for one viewpoint character and 3rd-limited for another a big no-no? Can it be done? I ask because one of my characters just comes across a lot better in first. It's unique to that character (in my writing) as I normally much prefer 3rd limited, but I just can't do the same justice to this guy in third.

So... thoughts?

ChaosTitan · Sep 24, 2008

First question: Some novels have four, six, and more viewpoint characters. There's no real rule, only to use what works to tell the story. Every POV should be necessary. One of my trunked novels, written in third person, has seven viewpoint characters.

Second question: Yes, you can mix first and third narration. It's been done, and I'm sure someone has even done it well. Not all readers, though, like it. I've only run across it once, but after five chapters of constant swapping, I gave up on the novel (and this by a best-selling author).

TheAntar · Sep 24, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
One of my trunked novels

after five chapters...I gave up on the novel (and this by a best-selling author).

I think you answered both my questions with big fat "Don't do its"

Thanks.

Telstar · Sep 24, 2008

First, it is not really a problem, many published novels have 3 or more viewpoints.

The second well, can be ugly.

Makai_Lightning · Sep 24, 2008

I think as long as you plan it right, 3 viewpoints is fine. George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series has, like, 8 or something. Mad long books, but you're not doing quite that many.

As for your second, I wouldn't recommend it. You can switch like that, but it's really distracting. You have to have a reason to set something apart. It would bother me if there was just one viewpoint in first for no apparent reason because it wouldn't seem to mesh with the book. You can do it, and it can be done well, but whatever you do should have purpose.

dawinsor · Sep 24, 2008

TheAntar, if you're looking for an example of a book that uses both first and third, try Elizabeth Bear's Hammered. You can see what you like and don't like about the technique.

maestrowork · Sep 24, 2008

Yes, and yes.

If it works.

Deccydiva · Sep 24, 2008

Like most things, if it is done well it's great and I am still trying to find out the title of a novel I read years ago where the same story was told four times over, (it might even have been five) each time by a different member of the same family plus the wife's boss. The wife kicks off the story and sails through blithely believing everything in her perfect world is fine then it comes crashing down. If I ever find the title I'll let you know.
I suppose what I'm saying is, it can work but it needs a particular kind of skill IMO.

kct webber · Sep 24, 2008

I have 6 viewpoint characters and three of them are MCs. It works. There are books with more, and books with fewer. If it makes the book better/if it's needed, do it.

As for the second, you can do--if you can do it.

Chasing the Horizon · Sep 24, 2008

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having lots of viewpoint characters. Most of my books have 3-6 viewpoint characters, sometimes more (as do many of my favorite published novels).

As for doing both first and third . . . this is one thing I have to say almost never works. I'm not saying it's impossible to do well, just almost impossible to do well, lol. I'd think you would have to have an extremely compelling reason for using both, and also a lot of experience to have any hope of pulling it off.

Nateskate · Sep 24, 2008

I'm reading Donaldson's second Thomas Covenant series. By book four he's a completely different writer. In book one, he sticks to primarily one point of view. But he keeps adding more POV as the story grew.

Now we can see Thomas Covenant as three dimensional, and not simply through his own eyes, which makes the novels better.

c.e.lawson · Sep 24, 2008

As far as the first and third POVs in one book, Diana Gabaldon carries this off very well in her Outlander series. BUT, the first person POV is the main character who carries the series. The third person POV chapters are not nearly as many, and are from important characters' perspectives when they are away from the main character and showing stuff we need to know for the story. I think she does an excellent job with this and I did not find it jarring at all while reading.

c.e.

Dawnstorm · Sep 24, 2008

You worry about three viewpoint characters? This scares me.

I have nine major recurring PoV characters; I never counted the minor recurring PoV characters, but there are at least another nine. Then there are one-shots... I doubt there are stretches when the PoV stays the same for more than 5000 words.

But then that's really necessary for the concept: I have lots of basically decent characters (no hero, no villain) meet during an unpleasant situation, which escalates in the finale.

I had three false starts. The number of PoVs increased with each one. The last one was the first to have one-shot PoVs. The story wanted that many. Now I'm at about 130k words (about 3/4 done).

I don't care if I can sell it. And if nobody wants to read it, that's okay, too. I'd rather scrap it and write something else than reduce the PoV number (significantly). You need to understand every character. You need to feel with them that there are no good solutions, yet decisions have to be made. If you want to pick a character and root for him/her, then this novel is the very antithesis of what you want.

TheAntar · Sep 25, 2008

Dawnstorm said:
You worry about three viewpoint characters? This scares me.

I worry because most of my favourites use one or maybe two.

Having said that, I enjoy scenes about your protagonist or antagonist from a minor character's PoV, especially when the scene doesn't require internal monologue and is, more or less, an action scene.

ChaosTitan · Sep 25, 2008

I also want to clarify that even though my multi-viewpoint novel is in the trunk, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do. Just that it was one of my practice novels, which may or may never see the light of day.

RJK · Sep 25, 2008

Restricting POV characters is a good thing when writing in first person. In third limited, it's not so important as long as you're careful about head hopping.

Mixing first and third? if you have to ask, don't. This is something akin to eye surgery. You really need to know what you're doing before you start carving. :e2brows:

Dawnstorm · Sep 26, 2008

TheAntar said:
I worry because most of my favourites use one or maybe two.

Having said that, I enjoy scenes about your protagonist or antagonist from a minor character's PoV, especially when the scene doesn't require internal monologue and is, more or less, an action scene.

Chaos Titan said:
I also want to clarify that even though my multi-viewpoint novel is in the trunk, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing to do. Just that it was one of my practice novels, which may or may never see the light of day.

Thanks, folks. Personally, I love multiple PoVs.

Interestingly, none of these discussions ever discourage me from writing my stories as I want to; they just discourage me from sending them out. Too much hassle for too little gain, if people actually don't want to read that stuff.

***

And to say something on topic:

First person + third person comes in many guises, but I'd say the most common one (subjective impression) would be 3rd person narration that's regularly interrupted by "authentic material" (interviews, letters, diaries...).

There's a book (very thin) by Ian MacDonald (Scissors Cut Paper Wrap Stone), where the past is narrated in 3rd person, while the present is narrated in first person. The narrator is the same person, but views his past as a different life and thus not himself at all. An interesting twist on the mix, working like a charm.

kct webber · Sep 26, 2008

Also, King's... Salem's Lot, I think, switches from 3rd the 2nd throughout the book. He does it well and it's not jarring. I didn't even really notice at first, and probably wouldn't have at all if I hadn't been analyzing.

katiemac · Sep 26, 2008

I didn't see anyone else touch on this, so I'm just going to throw it out there. As others have said, multiple viewpoint characters is no problem. However, since you said one of them dies, I'd be very sure that every scene in that character's viewpoint is absolutely necessary in his/her perspective.

It's not so much an issue that the character dies, but that the remainder of your novel might feel unbalanced from dropping a viewpoint character suddenly.

Feathers · Sep 26, 2008

I have nine major recurring PoV characters; I never counted the minor recurring PoV characters, but there are at least another nine. Then there are one-shots... I doubt there are stretches when the PoV stays the same for more than 5000 words. I had three false starts. Now I'm at about 130k words (about 3/4 done)

All I had to say on that matter.

Back to the OP: My novel has 4 different POV's. Two are third-person, past tense. One is usually third-person past tense, unless seen through the eyes of another POV, when he becomes third-person present tense. Then I have my first-person narrator, who uses both present tense and past, depending on whether he's narrating or whether it's happening right then.

It's a lot to juggle and not all of it is going to survive the second draft, but I think to a degree, it can be done. I don't mind reading both first and third person POVs in the same story when the first-person is the MC, or the villain. For some reason either of those ways seems to work.

-Feathers

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