Dash and Ellipsis Abuse--Awe Crap

Makai_Lightning · Sep 22, 2008

In my so-close-to-finished work in progress, there are few editorial decisions that still elude me. One of which is the dashes that litter the page, and the fact that I used ellipses in several areas. Technically speaking, I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to. I cut out most that didn't need to be there, but there are just some things and ways of speaking that just don't read the same without them.

Here's why I kept a pretty good many dashes (don't worry, they're not, like, everywhere, but there are a few scenes that I use them quite a few times in a row and is therefore noticable). Most of them are in dialogue, or the narration is mimicking the dialogue--I have a 1st person narrator (see? See? I just can't get rid of these damn things!). Some would be like the sentence I just wrote, with a hurried attribution to a mostly finished sentence, and then I used them when my characters cut each other off, because just nothing else make sense and explaining people getting cut off is cumbersome and adverse to the effect of cutting off. Sometimes my narrator will cut himself off, though only occasionally. This isn't to say all conversations are like it or necessarily the same either, it's just the way some characters tend to communicate. Same sort of thing with ellipses too, actually, since I generally just use them to indicate drag in someone's speech, if it's significant enough.

So really, how much is too much? I have at least one scene with two very pissed off people who can't let the other finish a sentence, and then there's the submissive type that gets cut off by other people who don't want to bother listening, and the generally just awkward person who doesn't know how to say what they're really trying to say. The way I wrote the scenes makes sense to me, but making sense and being technically sound are not necessarily the same thing.

The biggest problem has been with the dashes though. For the real quick back and forth dialogue there's just not a way to do it that made sense to me otherwise, and my narrator is really informal.

I cut the excess of both dashes and ellipses, but there still seems to be a good number of them.

As a side note, exclaimation points. I don't use a particular many of those, though I have them, and I've noticed a few in dialogue. Are those actually slated as bad if it's in dialogue or just the narrative. I might've used it once in narrative, twice if I'm wrong, but that's not really too bad.

maestrowork · Sep 22, 2008

Don't stress the small stuff.

If you do think you've been using them excessively, or worse, incorrectly, then you need to be diligent in exterminating them. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry too much, especially since you're writing in first person.

Otherwise, get some beta readers and see if the dashes and ellipses bother them.

Make sure you use them correctly though. A lot of writers misuse these marks. The thing about exclamation marks is a matter of style. I know my publisher doesn't like them, and I agree -- most of the time they're not necessary.

CaroGirl · Sep 22, 2008

If you truly believe you use these devices too much, and to the detriment of your prose, there's only one solution. Remove most of them.

If you want reassurance that every instance is appropriate, we can't give you that because we haven't read your work. In general, I find it distracting when either em dashes or ellipses are used too much. So, it seems like you're on a seek and destroy mission here.

As for your exclamation points, they're usually okay in dialogue. I don't like them in narrative.

Makai_Lightning · Sep 22, 2008

Haha. No, don't worry, I don't need validation on every one. Just a second opinion or so. I tend to let dialogue excuse more odd things, but I wasn't so sure that'd fly with everyone else (since that's where most of them are).

I guess I also just need a sense of how much is too much. To me, most of mine sound fine, but then my WIP is my baby, and I know what it's all supposed to sound like. I haven't gotten that particular complaint from anyone who's read my stuff, but I notice when I'm editing. This is just one of the slightly more sujbective things I tend to have more issue with. I think dashes and ellipses can add to voice and tone for some scenes, but there's a line somewhere between adding to tone and coating the page with so much extra shine that's all you see. I was worried about one or two scenes in particular.

edit: Oh, btw, thank you!

tehuti88 · Sep 22, 2008

The examples you gave make them sound fine to me. IMO dashes and ellipses are just necessary when people are getting cut off or are pausing/trailing off in their speech. Truthfully, I don't see why dashes and ellipses are hated so much when they're just forms of punctuation as valid as periods, or commas, or semicolons. What's the difference, really? Nobody would carp at somebody for using too many periods because there's one every time somebody finishes a sentence! If they don't belong somewhere, then they can be removed, but if they belong, then they're fine. Some people cut each other off a lot. Some pause a lot. Some people finish their sentences normally. It happens. You say it's just key characters/points in the story where this happens, not throughout the entire story, so it sounds okay.

Ditto with exclamation marks. If somebody's exclaiming, then they belong. I don't use them very much in narration at all (the uninvolved third-person narrator--I imagine it could be different in first person) but every so often I use them there. Some people exclaim things all the time! Because they're dramatic that way! OMGZZ!! (I would never use more than two in a row though. Many people eschew even that.

)

I can't speak for how well your dashes and ellipses would stand up to publication, sorry, but they sound perfectly fine to me. *shrug*

seun · Sep 23, 2008

tehuti88 said:
Ditto with exclamation marks. If somebody's exclaiming, then they belong. I don't use them very much in narration at all (the uninvolved third-person narrator--I imagine it could be different in first person) but every so often I use them there. Some people exclaim things all the time! Because they're dramatic that way! OMGZZ!! (I would never use more than two in a row though. Many people eschew even that. )

Surely it's better for the dialogue and situation to make it clear a character is exclaiming rather than going for the obvious ! And as for using two or more, that should be illegal!!

Phaeal · Sep 23, 2008

I just re-read Jane Eyre for about the twentieth time, and this reading was the first in which I noticed the enormous number of semi-colons Bronte (or editors) used. This quirk didn't stop me from zipping through the book. It could be your dashes and ellipses, if they truly don't interfere with the flow of the prose, will be equally invisible to the reader.

Only naive betas can tell. By naive I mean that you haven't warned them about the dashes and ellipses in advance. Once warned, they'll be on the watch for them, and the jig is up.

The Lonely One · Sep 23, 2008

I don't know, I'm reading "The Art of Fiction" by John Gardner (my second attempt to get through it), and that man uses more dashes/ellipses than anyone would think reasonable. Yet it's a book about fiction writing.

Perhaps the text was meant to emulate his lectures, but still.

jst5150 · Sep 23, 2008

I'd agree with Ray, who is published. Just write it and do it to the best of your ability. Your editor is going to walk you through that stuff and fix it. However, the meat of the thing has to be worthy of the grill before the seasoning goes on.

If you're stumped, however, I recommend "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves" as well as "The Word" by Cappon and other grammar/structure based books.

Danthia · Sep 24, 2008

I tend to use the em dash (the double dashes or one long dash) when I want to have a dramatic pause, followed by a statment that I want to emphasize.

"It was finally over--or so he thought!" (bad writing, yes, but it's early and it's just an example)

I also use an em dash to denote interruptions.

"But he said--"
"I don't care! He was rude."

I like to use elipses to show a thought or line trailing off, or a "soft pause" that an em dash would be too harsh for.

"If that was the case then...hmmm..." I reached for the phone.

Note this is not the proper grammatical use of the elipse, but my editor has not changed any of them in my MS. An elipse is traditionally used to denote that text in a quote is missing.

Exir · Sep 24, 2008

Surely it's better for the dialogue and situation to make it clear a character is exclaiming rather than going for the obvious !

Actually, even if a dialogue is clearly exclamation, exclamation marks are STILL needed, because the content of the sentence MUST be in sync with the punctuation used.

Consider this example:

Yay. I won the lottery. I am rich.

How does that sound?

Now try this:

Yay! I won the lottery! I'm rich!

This sounds much better, because the punctuation and the content are in sync. In the previous example, the sentence is telling you one thing, but the punctuation is telling you quite another, so it became awkward

FennelGiraffe · Sep 24, 2008

Exir said:
Consider this example:

Yay. I won the lottery. I am rich.

How does that sound?

Now try this:

Yay! I won the lottery! I'm rich!

That's an excellent example of using punctuation as a crutch to prop up weak writing.

Exclamation points aren't intrinsically bad. They can be used meaningfully. Most of the time, however, they're like laugh tracks on sitcoms; if the joke is funny, we don't need to be told to laugh. The temptation to add exclamation points is almost always a signal the words themselves aren't exciting. The warning to limit exclamation points isn't just about changing the punctuation; it's an exhortation to punch up your writing so that artificial supplementation isn't necessary.

The exclamation points above are telling us the character is excited. Try showing it, instead.

Exir · Sep 25, 2008

FennelGiraffe: again, I disagree. If the sentence itself is exciting, then the punctuation must agree with that. If you have a sentence that is clearly showing excitement, yet you don't use exclamation marks, it will jar the reader because the reader is receiving conflicting information.

I think the problem with exclamation marks is when a person uses them on sentences that do not show excitement.

seun · Sep 25, 2008

Exir said:
If you have a sentence that is clearly showing excitement, yet you don't use exclamation marks, it will jar the reader because the reader is receiving conflicting information.

If the sentence shows excitement already, then why the need for exclamation marks? The excitement has been shown. Why effectively show it twice?

Exir · Sep 25, 2008

If the sentence shows excitement already, then why the need for exclamation marks? The excitement has been shown. Why effectively show it twice?

Because otherwise the reader would be receiving conflicting information. If the sentence shows excitement, but we use a period to end it, then it would seem very jarring to the reader, as the sentence shows excitement, but the punctuation mark doesn't.

Hope I made my opinion clear

Bufty · Sep 25, 2008

Exir, think about what you are saying.

If one has two pages of exciting dialogue exchange - or even five or ten lines of exciting argument - is one supposed to have an exclamation mark after every sentence?

Of course not.

Julie Worth · Sep 25, 2008

Ellipses are worse than dashes because they force the reader to stop, and you don't want the reader doing that. I like dashes, though, and prefer them over parenthethes and colons. I came across a short story the other day that was littered with colons. The writer couldn't seem to finish a sentence without sticking one in there, whether it fit or not. Just terrible, I thought, but the New Yorker didn't agree: They published it.

maestrowork · Sep 25, 2008

Exir said:
Because otherwise the reader would be receiving conflicting information. If the sentence shows excitement, but we use a period to end it, then it would seem very jarring to the reader, as the sentence shows excitement, but the punctuation mark doesn't.

Hope I made my opinion clear

I agree with bufty. Show it in the characters' action and the choice of words, and don't rely on exclamation marks as a clutch. Those marks for meant for specific purposes, like... when people actually exclaim: "Stop!"

If you use exclamation marks once in a while, it's not a big deal. But things like "I won the lottery! I'm rich! I'm going to Disneyland!" are both overkill and also poor use of the punctuation. They're not necessary. Writers tend to think they have to use "!" or else the readers don't know they're excited. Overusing it makes us think of comic books: "BAM! POW!"

But this would work just fine:

Jerry pumped his fists in the air and screamed, "Oh my God, I won the lottery. I'm rich. I'm rich."

Danthia · Sep 25, 2008

Sometimes you do want the reader to stop. A dramatic pause is a great way to focus a reader's attention on something important.

mscelina · Sep 25, 2008

You know, I went through this with one of my writers when I was wearing my editorial hat last week. For me as an editor, I infinitely prefer to see:

"Stop right there!" the cop shouted.

as opposed to

"Stop right there," the cop shouted.

I'm seeing the latter more frequently these days because of the exclamation point phobia sweeping through the industry as of late. IMO, if a character is shouting, crying, yelling, screaming etc etc etc then that tag implies an exclamatory sentence. Period.

As for em dashes and ellipses--don't get me wrong. *sorry, couldn't resist* They can be overused. A couple of my writers use them incorrectly. Some use them in place of colons or semicolons. In those instances, they are struck. However, both pieces of punctuation are used for fairly specific reasons. If the voice trails off--it's an ellipsis. If the voice is cut off...it's an em dash.

The only middle ground where it's a bit iffy for me is if a writer is using em dashes in place of parentheses. There is such a thing as a writer's style which I, at least, try to preserve as much as possible. But, not all editors are the same.

If I get a manuscript that is littered with em dashes and ellipses to the point that it's annoying, I do find myself asking, "Why can't this writer complete a full thought?" or "Why do these characters interrupt each other all the time?" or "What's wrong with complete sentences instead of fragments?" In that instance, I usually find there's a deeper problem within the story and the stalled punctuation habits are a symptom. In the novel I edited week before last, the actual problem was an unresolved subplot. Whenver the writer tried to write about it, he had nothing to go on. All of the sentences were symptomatic of that: since he didn't know what ultimately happened, even the characters couldn't complete a thought process around the issue.

But that happens rarely in my experience. For the most part it's just a habit, like my lifelong obsession with adverbs, that is easily targeted and tamed with thorough revision.

Bufty · Sep 25, 2008

For my own clarification, M, I take it from your earlier expressed preference you consider such tagged sentences require an exclamation mark.

I'm not arguing - I'm trying to make sure I get your view right. I assume an 'exclamatory sentence' is by definition one that ends with an exclamation point.

mscelina said:
.... IMO, if a character is shouting, crying, yelling, screaming etc etc etc then that tag implies an exclamatory sentence. Period.

Exir · Sep 25, 2008

Thanks for all the different posts and opinions. I think there is no clearly right or wrong answer in this punctuation debate. I agree that the example I used was poor dialogue, and maestrowork's example was much better.

sharla · Sep 25, 2008

Makai,
I use ALOT of dashes in my ms too, in dialogue. I have a very modern story with a group of laid back people that are always cutting each other off. They never shut up, they talk all the time. I have some thought processes done that way as well, since it's first person. I worried too about it, and ended up rewording some of them and taking out quite a bit. Still have quite a bit left. I think it reflects the way they talk and interact with each other.

mscelina · Sep 25, 2008

Bufty said:
For my own clarification, M, I take it from your earlier expressed preference you consider such tagged sentences require an exclamation mark.

I'm not arguing - I'm trying to make sure I get your view right. I assume an 'exclamatory sentence' is by definition one that ends with an exclamation point.

Here's the way I approach it as an editor. If the writer gives me ["Stop right there," shouted the cop.] as the original sentence then I first remark that shouted implies an exclamation and that therefore the comma ending the dialogue is incorrect. Then I have them replace the tag with an action the indicates the character. So in the end, it turns out more like this:

"Stop right there!" The cop appeared at the top of the stairs with his gun aimed straight at my chest.

So in actuality, I use it as part of my editorial process. Don't get me wrong: I disapprove of random exclamation point use editorially. But specifically in the case of dialogue, if the original dialogue tag implies an exclamation, then I get the exclamation point in and the tag out and my EIC is a verry happy woman.

But, as I said, that's just me. Other editors (and houses) have different styles and priorities.

Bufty · Sep 25, 2008

Very clear now. The 'tag out' bit explains all. Thanks.

Dash and Ellipsis Abuse--Awe Crap

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