Thomas Covenant - Comments on growth- spoilers

Nateskate · Sep 10, 2008

Since I was critical of the first book, I thought in fairness, I should say that the story grew on me.

It's interesting how much an author can grow during a series. The initial story is told from Thomas Covenant's perspective, and in each subsequent book, more POV are brought into the story, balancing it out, and also diminishing Thomas Covenant's often irritating self-damnation, because there's really this desire to reach through the book and slap him into reality.

But there are also parts of the story that I think border on brilliant. Thomas Covenant's problems in the real world (referring to this world) could be a book in itself. In fact, I think that's what drew me to stay with these books- connecting to Thomas Covenant like a comic super hero- never appreciated and maligned by the people he saves. But also he takes credit for every one else's self-destruction.

At any rate, I'd say it was worth fighting through what I considered maddening elements in Book One.

Treyos · Sep 10, 2008

Read those books many years back (in high school... way, waaay back) and felt about the same. Covenant himself irritated the hell out of me throughout the first book but the supporting cast and concept was interesting enough that I managed through it. The sequels were definite improvements but even that first book was pretty decent all told. Just wanted to slap him around a bit and get him over the emo-ness.

Diana Hignutt · Sep 10, 2008

The second trilogy is better than the first. And then I prefer Donaldson's The Mirror of Her Dreams.

Nateskate · Sep 10, 2008

Diana Hignutt said:
The second trilogy is better than the first. And then I prefer Donaldson's The Mirror of Her Dreams.

I'm going to start the second Trilogy. I kind of feel bad for pre-judging Donaldson. I don't think it's a perfect series, and I think many readers have the same visceral reaction to book one. But books 2 and 3 evolve, and by book three I found it engaging.

But for me it says alot about growth as an author. I don't think it was simply that the story unfolded, but that his skills as an author improved a great deal from book to book.

johnzakour · Sep 11, 2008

Writing is like any other trade, the more practice you get the better you get at it.

The fact that people are still reading these books 20+ years later says a lot for the series. Yes, Covenant may have been a maddening character at times but each of the books were always highly readable.

Nateskate · Sep 11, 2008

johnzakour said:
Writing is like any other trade, the more practice you get the better you get at it.

The fact that people are still reading these books 20+ years later says a lot for the series. Yes, Covenant may have been a maddening character at times but each of the books were always highly readable.

Hi John. I agree with you that the more we write, the more the writing will improve. But I also see writers that let the story get away from them. In fact, they can be like musicians whose first works were edgy, and their subsequent works schmaltzy.

I think Donaldson's story had flaws, but it also had some great parts, and the story itself improved along with his writing.

Calla Lily · Sep 11, 2008

Loved the anti-hero, also read it in HS, but put down the first book at the rape. A friend convinced me to pick it up again, and I read all 6. Flawed and too wordy, but good. The current series, however, I'm beginning to actively hate.

Gillhoughly · Sep 11, 2008

At one of my first signings I shared the table with Donaldson.

We talked writing. I told him how I'd had one book in the slush pile, another finished, and the third partially finished when I got the call from the editor that led to a multi-book deal. I was (deservedly, I would say) proud of what had happened.

He looked at me with bored expression like I was some unimportant bug and asked in all sincerity "Why would you write a second book if your first hadn't yet sold?"

I couldn't believe I'd heard him right.

How could I NOT write??? I might as well have tried to stop breathing.

He then turned away and ignored me for the remaining 55 minutes of our slot.

In a very tiny instant, I determined he was a moron, I'd never learn anything from his writing, and that I would never, NEVER act like such a jerk to another writer, whatever their place on the ladder.

To balance this out, I once shared a table with Ray Bradbury himself, and he was not only a kind, funny gentleman, but the soul of graciousness, soft spoken, and sweetly polite.

I've read everything he's ever written. Which is a lot and I learned a lot.

But my best lesson from him was basic courtesy.

Perhaps this might give some of you an insight to what's behind:

"Covenant's often irritating self-damnation, because there's really this desire to reach through the book and slap him into reality."

I removed myself from the signing soon as my time was up. It would not have been the done thing for me to deck the other writer for being a such a wanker.

Calla Lily · Sep 11, 2008

Gillhoughly,

. But what a great papparazzi photo that would've been.

Gillhoughly · Sep 11, 2008

Heh-heh-heh!

He was such a skinny mutt. Wouldn't have been a fair contest.

Nateskate · Sep 11, 2008

callalily61 said:
Loved the anti-hero, also read it in HS, but put down the first book at the rape. A friend convinced me to pick it up again, and I read all 6. Flawed and too wordy, but good. The current series, however, I'm beginning to actively hate.

I hear you about "too wordy". Lol, I think I wanted to red-line some parts, but the story kept me going.

Nateskate · Sep 11, 2008

Gillhoughly, thanks for sharing this experience. Honestly, I wonder if people realize the impact that they have on others? Then again, I think these negative experiences are what can spur us to try to take the high ground if and when we get into those places.

On the flip side, I always enjoy your comments and I'm glad you're here to share from your experiences. You make the boards more fun.

Gillhoughly said:
At one of my first signings I shared the table with Donaldson.

We talked writing. I told him how I'd had one book in the slush pile, another finished, and the third partially finished when I got the call from the editor that led to a multi-book deal. I was (deservedly, I would say) proud of what had happened.

He looked at me with bored expression like I was some unimportant bug and asked in all sincerity "Why would you write a second book if your first hadn't yet sold?"

I couldn't believe I'd heard him right.

How could I NOT write??? I might as well have tried to stop breathing.

He then turned away and ignored me for the remaining 55 minutes of our slot.

In a very tiny instant, I determined he was a moron, I'd never learn anything from his writing, and that I would never, NEVER act like such a jerk to another writer, whatever their place on the ladder.

To balance this out, I once shared a table with Ray Bradbury himself, and he was not only a kind, funny gentleman, but the soul of graciousness, soft spoken, and sweetly polite.

I've read everything he's ever written. Which is a lot and I learned a lot.

But my best lesson from him was basic courtesy.

Perhaps this might give some of you an insight to what's behind:

"Covenant's often irritating self-damnation, because there's really this desire to reach through the book and slap him into reality."

I removed myself from the signing soon as my time was up. It would not have been the done thing for me to deck the other writer for being a such a wanker.

Gillhoughly · Sep 11, 2008

Thanks. You can figure why I have the pen name here, else I could never share any of the really juicy stuff.

I am very thankful for people like Ray Bradbury, who showed me what a class act is all about. He wasn't feeling well at that signing, but kept on until all the fans got an autograph. The only thing he asked for was a strawberry shake toward the end to keep up his energy.

I saw the same thing with James Doohan, who was cheerful and pleasant and stayed on for hours after the time was up to sign books for hundreds of fans. He also posed for pics, signing them, the money going to a local charity.

What I disliked was a writer who barged in on a signing, acted as though she was not only the center of the universe, but had specially gone out of her way to rescue everyone from fatal boredom, and by god we should be grateful!

This oblivious diva then set out all her vanity press books--right next to a multiple Hugo-winner.

The pro was polite enough not to burst out with laughter then and there, managing to hold it in until we dragged her off to the bar, then we all lost it.

I love conventions. :roll:

Perle_Rare · Sep 11, 2008

Wow! Fodder for stories / characters right there. Thanks Gillhoughly!

As for Donaldson, I read all the Covenant books as well as The Mirror of Her Dream in high school and loved them. I recently tried to read the Covenant series again and I wasn't able to make it a quarter of the way through the first book. I couldn't put my finger on the reason why not.

I wonder if I'd have as much trouble with The Mirror of Her Dreams if I were to try reading it again? Interesting thought. I just might have to give it a try.

then again, from Gillhoughly's description of Donaldson, maybe I don't need to...

rugcat · Sep 11, 2008

Nateskate said:
Gillhoughly, thanks for sharing this experience. Honestly, I wonder if people realize the impact that they have on others? Then again, I think these negative experiences are what can spur us to try to take the high ground if and when we get into those places.

I've been on both sides of this, not only as a writer, but as a struggling musician when I was younger. I know how it feels to be looked at and instantly dismissed. It takes so little to be nice to people, and it means so much to someone to be treated as an equal by a pro, if only for a moment, and even though you know you're not.

I resolved back then if I was ever successful to remember that and treat people kindly and show them some interest -- even if they were completely clueless. And I always have.

And let me put in a plug for Garth Nix -- one of the most down to earth, gracious, and decent people in the writing game.

Nateskate · Sep 12, 2008

Gillhoughly said:
Thanks. You can figure why I have the pen name here, else I could never share any of the really juicy stuff.

I am very thankful for people like Ray Bradbury, who showed me what a class act is all about. He wasn't feeling well at that signing, but kept on until all the fans got an autograph. The only thing he asked for was a strawberry shake toward the end to keep up his energy.

I saw the same thing with James Doohan, who was cheerful and pleasant and stayed on for hours after the time was up to sign books for hundreds of fans. He also posed for pics, signing them, the money going to a local charity.

What I disliked was a writer who barged in on a signing, acted as though she was not only the center of the universe, but had specially gone out of her way to rescue everyone from fatal boredom, and by god we should be grateful!

This oblivious diva then set out all her vanity press books--right next to a multiple Hugo-winner.

The pro was polite enough not to burst out with laughter then and there, managing to hold it in until we dragged her off to the bar, then we all lost it.

I love conventions.

Life can be very humbling. I think people who get easy success might be more prone to taking themselves too seriously. Then again, what do I know other than this whole slowcoach to a writing career has deflated my ego a notch or ten. It's probably best that happened.

Nateskate · Sep 12, 2008

You're right. Music is pretty unforgiving. Have to be in the right place at the right time riding the right wave.

I was once in a band that had a chance to be a supergroup. The lead singer was great and well-connected, and we had great harmonies like the Eagles or Fleetwood Mac. Just before we were to go on tour and into the studio- on someone else's dime- the lead singer cheated on his wife, and she said "It's the band or me." He chose his wife, and then lost her any way.

We had enough talent to regroup. My wife has an angel's voice and we had four writers still in the band. But when my first son was born my wife didn't want to tour, and I decided I wasn't going on the road without my wife and kid. I got "chained-to-a-desk" in order to get medical coverage, thinking we'd eventually have another crack at the big time. Laughs- then one day I looked in the mirror and realized that youth had completely vanished and there was no way.

I did studio work and some writing here and there, but unlike with writing a novel, unless you're Stevie Ray Vaughn good, your age really begins to matter at some point. I can fake a little SRV, but that's about it. Then again, perhaps I can contribute some to the movie soundtrack if my books become movies. Obviously that would never be my call, but I'd ask if they'd like to listen to something I put together just to humor me.

Regardless, got to have a dream to carry us through the difficult parts of life.

rugcat said:
I've been on both sides of this, not only as a writer, but as a struggling musician when I was younger. I know how it feels to be looked at and instantly dismissed. It takes so little to be nice to people, and it means so much to someone to be treated as an equal by a pro, if only for a moment, and even though you know you're not.

I resolved back then if I was ever successful to remember that and treat people kindly and show them some interest -- even if they were completely clueless. And I always have.

And let me put in a plug for Garth Nix -- one of the most down to earth, gracious, and decent people in the writing game.

Treyos · Sep 14, 2008

Nateskate said:
Regardless, got to have a dream to carry us through the difficult parts of life.

Sometimes the dream is all you've got; sometimes it's all you need.

As for Donaldson, sounds like maybe he put a lot of his own personality into Covenant. A shame that any author could be so out of touch with the purpose which drives any artist (visual, literary or otherwise) to bring thought into physical - the simple love for creation. We sure as hell aren't doing it for the money.

Calla Lily · Sep 14, 2008

Nate, your story reminds me of a solo I had in my college production of Working. The song is "If I Could've Been" and it's an ode to lost dreams and wasted talent. I never thought much about it in college--I was 22 and had my life before me. Plus it's a catchy song and yowza, I had the solo. (We got novations 3 of 4 performances.) Out of nostalgia I borrowed the soundtrack from the library a few years back and--yike. All it said to me was "we're at the point when there's no use hoping or trying anymore."

That's when I said to myself (paraphrased) "Never give up. Never surrender."
I won't waste it. I quit acting when my oldest was born. I quit singing when both kids were in too much soccer/band and I couldn't leave the DH to do all the chauffeuring. But writing has the advantage that you can do it during games and before concerts. It's the talent that accommodates my family--because my family is the most important.

Don't give up, Nate!

Nateskate · Sep 14, 2008

Treyos said:
Sometimes the dream is all you've got; sometimes it's all you need.

As for Donaldson, sounds like maybe he put a lot of his own personality into Covenant. A shame that any author could be so out of touch with the purpose which drives any artist (visual, literary or otherwise) to bring thought into physical - the simple love for creation. We sure as hell aren't doing it for the money.

Obvious Spoilers:

It could be. Thomas Covenant is both persecuted in one world and idolized in the other. And he has difficulty handling both. He really does get into the heads of a Leper, and Donaldson also gives insight into a Blind Man suddenly given sight. These two characters come at life from different directions (In Book Two). So Donaldson has to have some insight into Thomas Covenant (Meaning it's not entirely him). He clearly sees why Covenant is abhored through the eyes of the Blind Man, who is not an Unbeliever.

Lol- Contrast this with Lord of the Rings. Yes- there's a Ring of Power in both and a Dark Lord, and it's not clear whether Covenant's Ring is a good thing or bad thing, but the Dark Lord wants it.

However, in LOTR, you have these funny characters like Pippen and Sam and Merry to offset the stoutness of Gimli and even Gandalf. The characters vary greatly throughout the story, which offsets the stern world they face. In Thomas Covenant, there's no comic relief. The characters are severe, whether faithful or faithless.

Now throw in that the main character wounds everyone he touches, and that there are freaky moments, like when he falls inappropriately in love with Elena- in a Back to the Future incest moment, there are just many more disturbing elements in this darker story where loyalty goes out the window. (Think Seareach)

Nateskate · Sep 14, 2008

callalily61 said:
Nate, your story reminds me of a solo I had in my college production of Working. The song is "If I Could've Been" and it's an ode to lost dreams and wasted talent. I never thought much about it in college--I was 22 and had my life before me. Plus it's a catchy song and yowza, I had the solo. (We got novations 3 of 4 performances.) Out of nostalgia I borrowed the soundtrack from the library a few years back and--yike. All it said to me was "we're at the point when there's no use hoping or trying anymore."

That's when I said to myself (paraphrased) "Never give up. Never surrender."
I won't waste it. I quit acting when my oldest was born. I quit singing when both kids were in too much soccer/band and I couldn't leave the DH to do all the chauffeuring. But writing has the advantage that you can do it during games and before concerts. It's the talent that accommodates my family--because my family is the most important.

Don't give up, Nate!

I appreciate your saying that. I haven't really given up, though novels are my highest priority now. If (dreams) I become a famous author, I may use that as a platform to perform. Recently I've been asked to join a band, but I declined due to a) my arm is wounded right now and I'm in PT. b) I just have to finish edits on Book Three and don't have any arm to spare.

Nateskate · Sep 25, 2008

I'm now into Book One of the second series.

I must say that S.R Donaldson has grown tremendously as a writer by his fourth book. If he had written his first three books with the skill of his fourth, he might have achieved mythical status.

The first three chapters are brilliant, and whereas the first Book of the first series shows characters without insight, to the point of madness, this book is a veritable trove of insights into character development and motivations.

My criticism of Thomas Covenant was that he was one dimensional in book one, and infuriating. Now he is a well-rounded and interesting.

I'm writing this because I had almost written Donaldson off entirely, and realize now that a writer can grow a great deal after their first book.

Thomas Covenant - Comments on growth- spoilers

Nateskate

Treyos

Diana Hignutt

Very Tired

Nateskate

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard

Nateskate

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Nateskate

Nateskate

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Perle_Rare

Dragon rider

rugcat

Lost in the Fog

Nateskate

Nateskate

Treyos

Calla Lily

On hiatus

Nateskate

Nateskate

Nateskate