Using 'and' or commas

Sunshine13 · Sep 9, 2008

OK, I know I know, like my second topic in ten minutes here. Sorry!

Just curious about your style. In some books I've read in the past, I noticed some sentence structures that refuse to use 'and' when it seems natural to put one there. For example:

Jane lifted the hem of her gown, jumped over the puddle.

Thoughts? It seems . . . odd to me. Is it wrong? If so, does it matter that much seeing as I've read sentences like this before in more than one book? What do you prefer when reading/writing? Does it even matter?

I only ask because I've written a few like this and want to add the and. I think I will, just because it reads more natural to me. And it's much better than writing:

Lifting the hem of her gown, Jane jumped over the puddle.

*shoots all the ing's*

Ms Hollands · Sep 9, 2008

I was waiting for Jane to do something after jumping over the puddle. I'd stick an 'and' in there for sure!

Alpha Echo · Sep 9, 2008

Technically, it's not grammatically correct.

I do it sometimes, though. I can't explain how I decide to do that. Not in the example you gave though. That, I think needs an "and." Let me see if I can find an example of me NOT using "and" in my writing...

Okay, maybe I don't. I can't find an example.

Sunshine13 · Sep 9, 2008

Are you thinking of something like:

He raised his sword, swinging it down with a ferocious growl.

(totally pulling these out of my arse, so forgive me for the lameness)

See, going back to that I know the sentence is wrong, because he can't raise and swing at the same time, which I've learned is what this sentence is meaning if you have a 'ed and 'ing word there like that. (I forget the grammatical term for it). So it would be edited to:

He raised his sword and swung it down with a ferocious growl.

And I swear to you, I've read it in books without the and and just a comma. Ok, not sure if that was the kind of example you were looking for. I can't think of anything better at the moment lol.

Charlie Horse · Sep 9, 2008

That example reads like someone who isn't comfortable with the English language.

Carmy · Sep 9, 2008

I'd use "and" in there, or I'd expect to see a continuation of the sentence. But I think it depends on the writer's or character's voice.

Carmy · Sep 9, 2008

Good one, Christa. Trying to visualize that sword swinging. LOL

FennelGiraffe · Sep 9, 2008

ChristaCarol13;2734780 Jane lifted the hem of her gown said:
Grammatically, it's wrong. For a usage like this, however, style sometimes trumps grammar.

Stylistically, I think it would get really annoying really fast if used repeatedly. Very occasional use could possibly work.

For me, three parts make it much less awkward than two. It's still grammatically wrong, but it flows better.

Jane lifted the hem of her gown, jumped over the puddle, landed in the briars.

ORION · Sep 9, 2008

it seems to me more an issue of style - I will tell you if it bugs your publisher the copy editors will suggest to stick in that 'and' lol!
I think occasionally used to make a scene flow depending on how it's done is not a deal breaker for me as a reader. Doing it intensionally all the time? I dunno...

qwerty · Sep 9, 2008

I reckon it's a personal writing style thing. Not one I'm too keen on though.

Jane lifted the hem of her gown, jumped over the puddle (I want to add) and landed bum down in mud, or some such conclusion to the sentence.

I'm okay with: Lifting the hem of her gown, Jane jumped over the puddle. I think those ing jobs are called a dangling something, but I don't have an issue with them myself.

But to get back to your question, if you want to bung ands in because it reads more naturally, I'd say go for it.

a) Christa revised her copy and shoved in an and or two.
b) Christa revised her copy, shoved in an and or two. (Bugger, I still want to add something else to that!)

stuckupmyownera · Sep 9, 2008

ChristaCarol13 said:
Jane lifted the hem of her gown, jumped over the puddle.

Hate it, hate it, hate it.

If I really wanted to omit the and, for some reason, I'd make it two sentences.

Jane lifted the hem of her gown. Jumped over the puddle.

JVaughn · Sep 9, 2008

Omitting the 'and' is more of a screenwriting thing, where less words is better than more. Doesn't look right at all in this medium.

Seaclusion2 · Sep 9, 2008

Lifting the hem of her gown, Jane jumped over the puddle.

This is a gerrund clause. There is nothing technically wrong with using one and this one is technically correct. Sometimes a gerrund clause does not have the verb acting on the subject of the sentence and that is why they are sometimes confusing. As much as I distain opening sentences with -ing verbs, I prefer it to leaving out 'and' as a conjuction.

Richard

Sunshine13 · Sep 9, 2008

Richard,

Yes! That's what they are called. And yeah, I wasn't meaning they were all bad. But in most cases if it's a writing tick of yours, most of them aren't correct

At least twas my case when I first started this piece of mine.

Seaclusion2 · Sep 9, 2008

True. I would much rather read a well constructed sentence than have to figure out what the writer was trying to say. I think simpler is better. If it needs to be broken into two shorter sentences to get the point across, it is better than stringing together a long confusing sentence.

Richard

angelgirl · Sep 9, 2008

I would definitely add the "and" in the original sentence. It is needed to make the sentence grammatically correct. I agree with Seaclusion. When I see sentences like that when I am reading I get frustrated because I have to slow down and try to decode the sentence. Then I get mad that someone is getting paid to write poorly. Although breaking the rules may sometimes make sense stylistically, the sentence still has to be readable and make sense. This sentence leaves me asking, "Huh?"

gypsyscarlett · Sep 9, 2008

It sounds odd because it is odd.

It's grammatically incorrect. And I think the style is horrid. (just my two cents)

FennelGiraffe · Sep 9, 2008

qwerty said:
I'm okay with: Lifting the hem of her gown, Jane jumped over the puddle. I think those ing jobs are called a dangling something, but I don't have an issue with them myself.

The ing issue:

There are two separate problems. The first one is dangling modifiers. That's when the noun right after the comma isn't the actor who's doing the ing action. Lifting the hem of her gown, Jane jumped over the puddle is NOT a dangling modifier because Jane is doing both actions: lifting and jumping. An example that IS a dangling modifier: Lifting the hem of her gown, the snake bit Jane's leg. (Unless you claim it was the snake that lifted her skirt!)

The second problem is simultaneity. Was the ing action performed continuously over a period of time (what using the ing form means), and was the other action performed during that same period of time? Lifting the hem of her gown, Jane jumped over the puddle could possibly be argued either way. It depends on whether you consider 'lift' to refer only to the initial act of raising the skirt, or whether it can include the ongoing act of holding it up. Personally, I think 'lift' describes only the initial action, so this sentence is incorrect, but it isn't as flagrant as some I've seen.

If you avoid both of those errors, then it's a valid construction. The prohibition against it is because people so rarely do avoid them, especially the second.

Storm Dream · Sep 9, 2008

I've seen it both ways. I prefer the "and" but I'm guilty of using just a comma sometimes -- some distant part of me seems to think it adds tension, or something like that. Typically I use just the comma in a fight scene or when something very important/dangerous is going on. And using it over and over again just makes me want to break out my red pen o'death.

Used occasionally, I think it can work.

qwerty · Sep 9, 2008

Like I said, I don't have an issue with ing. Be it a garund, a dangling modifier or a dangling participle.

What does bother me is that, sometimes, a writer can affect his or her free-flow expression by getting hung up about what the individual components of a sentence are called.

I recently heard a BBC news announcer talk about a "No smoking ban". I instictively knew it was wrong, but I didn't try to get my head round if it was a tautology, an oxymoron or a double negative.

NicoleMD · Sep 9, 2008

A style choice, definitely. Used sparingly, they're effective as long as they don't jolt the reader too much. They're good to speed pacing up I think, more immediate.

Nicole

Lady Cat · Sep 9, 2008

I have to go with the majority here and agree that the sentence needs an "and". If I was reading this in a book it would make me stop reading and go back over the sentence several times to try and figure out what I was missing.

kuwisdelu · Sep 9, 2008

This particular sentence, especially since it's out-of-context, needs an and.

But sometimes it's best with the just comma, even if it's grammatically incorrect. Good writers break rules all the time, and this is just another example of that. The fact that you're noticing it, though, suggests the writer is not very good. You say it sounds unnatural, and that's because either it doesn't fit the rhythm of the writer's style, or the writer has a poor grasp of rhythm. Like most stylistic tricks, when done well, you wouldn't even notice this kind of thing, because it will fit the rhythm perfectly, and sound completely natural. If it sounds awkward, don't do it.

maestrowork · Sep 9, 2008

ChristaCarol13 said:
Jane lifted the hem of her gown, jumped over the puddle.

It's not wrong. It's a stylistic choice, and I suspect it's done for punchiness. I use it sometimes, but only in threes:

Jane lifted the hem of her gown, took a breath, jumped over the puddle.

Lifting the hem of her gown, Jane jumped over the puddle.

Eeek, you're right, that would be bad. It's incorrect as well unless "lifting" is replaced by "holding." A participial clause general means they're simultaneous actions.

Cato · Sep 9, 2008

I think it works a bit better in first person.

"I take a breath, shut my eyes, block it all out."

Using 'and' or commas

Mom by day, writer by night!

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Mom by day, writer by night!

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It's green they say

Sailed away years ago

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Extraneous Comma Slayer

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