Japanese honorifics in dialogue

a_morris · Sep 8, 2008

I'm writing a soft sf novel set on a world based on modern Japan. Japanese honorifics are more complicated than Mr, Miss, Ms and Mrs. I can use the rules governing honorifics as second nature. I'd like to use them but I can't explain them to my readers because there is no place in my plot for someone who is so much of a tourist that they need to be taught about them and info dumps are bad.

Examples:
1)

Atsuka looked down. Her arms showed bruising. “I was in a fight. However I’m fine. Mohana san, this is my daughter Junko san. Ju chan, this is Raj san.”
“You were in a fight? Cool,” said Junko.
“Not cool. Where are your manners? Greet Raj san.”
“Pleased to meet you, Raj san.”
“Likewise it is a pleasure, Junko san.”

2)

“Emi san, you look absolutely gorgeous,” said Kiera and hugged her “This is my date for the evening, Akita Tetsuya san.”
Tetsuya bowed. Emi bowed. “Pleased to meet you, Akita san. Ki chan, you look great too.”

3)

“So do you have kids?” said Emi to fill the silence.
Atsuka pulled a purse out of her evening bag and produced a photo. “Three. Yuma kun, 20, Junko san, 15 and Kenta kun, 13.”
Emi was relieved that the children were not young children. Even teens were far more bearable. “What is your son Yuma kun doing now that he’s finished school?”

What do you think? Good cultural colour? Distracting? Or confusing?

ETA: I have decided the honorifics aren't working and this post has also revealed serious problems between the nature of my characters and the nature of my worldframe. I'm now trying to think about how to fix that.

GLAZE_by_KyrstinMc · Sep 8, 2008

a_morris said:
I'm writing a soft sf novel set on a world based on modern Japan. Japanese honorifics are more complicated than Mr, Miss, Ms and Mrs. I can use the rules governing honorifics as second nature. I'd like to use them but I can't explain them to my readers because there is no place in my plot for someone who is so much of a tourist that they need to be taught about them and info dumps are bad.

Examples:
1)

Atsuka looked down. Her arms showed bruising. “I was in a fight. However I’m fine. Mohana san, this is my daughter Junko san. Ju chan, this is Raj san.”
“You were in a fight? Cool,” said Junko.
“Not cool. Where are your manners? Greet Raj san.”
“Pleased to meet you, Raj san.”
“Likewise it is a pleasure, Junko san.”
2)

“Emi san, you look absolutely gorgeous,” said Kiera and hugged her “This is my date for the evening, Akita Tetsuya san.”
Tetsuya bowed. Emi bowed. “Pleased to meet you, Akita san. Ki chan, you look great too.”

3)

“So do you have kids?” said Emi to fill the silence.
Atsuka pulled a purse out of her evening bag and produced a photo. “Three. Yuma kun, 20, Junko san, 15 and Kenta kun, 13.”
Emi was relieved that the children were not young children. Even teens were far more bearable. “What is your son Yuma kun doing now that he’s finished school?”

What do you think? Good cultural colour? Distracting? Or confusing?

I'd suggest doing "Mohana-san", etc instead. That seems to be easier for most people to read, and is typically how it is written in English.

Now, remember that "kun" is used for boys younger than you/boys your age and close to you.

"San" can only be addressed using the person's last name, and means "Mr." or "Mrs." or "Ms.".

"Chan" is like "kun" but for girls. Sometimes "chan" can be used for very young boys, like 4 and under.

Now, "Sama" means "Master" or "Lord", addressing someone with "sama" means you're showing them a kingsworth of respect.

"Yuma kun, 20, Junko san, 15 and Kenta kun, 13" threw me off, is Junko the family last name, why is the mother addressing their 15-year-old with the greatest respect?

Cheers.

IceCreamEmpress · Sep 8, 2008

This reads like a horrible, horrible translation.

You should reserve use of honorifics for direct address when writing in English.

And even if you decide to keep the honorifics, I'm not understanding what you're doing with them. For instance, I have never heard a Japanese mother call her own children -san or -kun. That's just not what Japanese parents do, either in direct address or in indirect referral. So unless there's some good reason why in your fantasy world this practice changed so radically, I would drop it.

"Yuma kun, 20, Junko san, 15 and Kenta kun, 13" threw me off, is Junko the family last name, why is the mother addressing their 15-year-old with the greatest respect?

I think that the poster is confused about many aspects of how Japanese honorifics work, and thinks that "-san" is gendered for girls, and "-kun" is gendered for boys.

Neurotic · Sep 8, 2008

The examples just read really awkwardly to me. Sometimes in translations it can be better to go for the spirit of whatever you're translating, rather than word-for-word.

Liosse de Velishaf · Sep 8, 2008

I'm somewhat familiar with the uses of honorfics, bolstered by some recent research on the language and culture for a project. I agree that your examples seem really odd. I've never had trouble with honorifics, with anime or literature. It's really not that hard to get with context, so there's little wrong with using them properly.

Glaze is right on with that dash comment. I found the lack of it very odd.

I disagree with some of the information provided by Glaze's notes on
-san. If it isn't a bit wrong, it's stated in a confusing manner. It is usually translated into English as "Mr." or "Mrs.", but that's not exactly what it means, and it is never used in self-reference like english speakers may use "Mr." and "Mrs.". Also, it can be used with the given name or the family name.

The rules for -kun and -chan are a little more complicated. I'm fairly sure -chan is actually a dimunitive, rather than specifically feminine, but it has come to be more associated with females at this point, and is not used towards males above a certain age, while it can be used for females under several circumstances. -kun is more decidedly masculine at this point. It is not used to address one's own children, however. It is used primarily in direct address of young men, depending on circumstances.

I basically agree with Glaze on the use of -sama, but it doesn't appear to be currently relevant to your questions or examples.

But the point here is that your use of the honorifics needs a serious overhaul.

Edit: And Fullback is pretty much right. Are you really capable of basing a culture on the actual Japanese model?

Fullback · Sep 8, 2008

Good morning!

I thought about this for a while this morning and have come to the opinion that maybe it's best to not use the honorifics to make the characters less Japanese and more of some other hybrid culture. I understand that you appreciate Japanese culture and I think that is wonderful. But, to appreciate it means to be true to it also, don't you think?

If the characters are a little less Japanese by eliminating the honorifics, the inconsistencies between the western action and dialogue the characters portray with true Japanese dialogue or actions is resolved. Japanese simply don't act or say things like the characters here. It's a westernized version of Japanese culture.

A mother would typically not use san when talking about or introducing her child or any immediate family member. Sometimes kun or chan would be used for young children, but not for older ones when speaking about them. In many cases, names would not be used at all.

The examples 2 and 3 would never happen in Japanese culture. Japanese just don't speak or react like that. Men don't say a woman is gorgeous directly to her and a woman would be horribly embarrassed to hear a man say that in public. People would not say the names of their children and pull out a photo. That is western culture.

The man would say someone was beautiful with his eyes only and would never hug in public. The mother would simply answer that she had three children. Taking out a photo and rattling off names would require the other person to feel obligated to remember the names, or feign interest when they truly have no reason to be interested or force them to say something (usually insincere) about the children.

Western culture is filled with touching, feeling and insincere words and actions. Japanese culture is not. There is insincerity, but it is understood explicitly when something is meant to maintain a mood, and not meant to be taken seriously. Japanese do not say that they "love" a pair of shoes, hug strangers, feign friendship or overstate feelings. Love is a word for people, not things. Shoes are nice and hamburgers are delicious. You don't love them in Japan.

Western people will talk incessantly for hours to a stranger seated next to them on an airplane, exchanging business cards, birthdays and all the gory and tawdry details of their life, promising eternal brotherly love through war and peace, but it's all crap and forgotten after walking down the ramp.

Japanese don't bother with it and don't even introduce themselves or talk to a stranger seated next to them. They are not being rude, they are just being practical and conserving the energy required to put up the facade of friendship that westerners do.

The cultures are just different...

So, I would say eliminate the honorifics and appeal to your intended audience with western dialogue, and make the characters less Japanese to help in the cause of not furthering the myth that everyone thinks and acts the same as western people.

Susan Lanigan · Sep 8, 2008

There's a good book called "Haruki Murakami and the Music of Words" by one of Murakami's translators, Jay Rubin, which discusses the difficulty of translating from Japanese to English.

Interestingly when I read South of the Border, West of the Sun, I did not realise that the reclusive heroine, Shimamoto, did not reveal her first name - Shimamoto being a surname. The male protagonist called her Shimamoto-san, which I in my ignorance thought was a term of endearment, whereas it was the precise opposite.

And a whole point goes soaring over my head

yttar · Sep 8, 2008

GLAZE_by_KyrstinMc said:
Now, "Sama" means "Master" or "Lord", addressing someone with "sama" means you're showing them a kingsworth of respect.

I heard that if a girl calls her crush -sama, it means she's incredibly obsessed with the guy and it's a little bit creepy. For example, in Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon (the live action drama), Usagi calls her crush Mamaru-sama.

I find honorifics to be rather confusing. In one manga I read, there was a chart that listed what all the characters called each other, whether it was by their given name or their family name, and what honorific they used, but I was so confused, I had to keep looking at the character names in the front to match the character's given name with their last name.

I read a fantasy novel where the culture seemed to be a blend of both Western and Eastern cultures, the author used honorifics, but she made up her own and had a guide at the beginning for who each honorific referred to. Maybe it's just me or the way she did it, but I found her system a lot easier to understand or a lot easier to ignore if I didn't feel like looking up who this honorific was referring to. The novel was Doppelganger by Marie Brennan, though the reissue is called Warrior.

Yttar

Phoebe H · Sep 8, 2008

First of all, don't leave the honorifics as separate words, connect them to the name with a hyphen. Otherwise it is very hard to parse them. That is the usual way that they are presented in English.

You can get away without explicitly explaining what the honorifics mean, but what you have to do then is make sure that you, at least once or twice near the beginning, explain what the underlying relationships are that the honorifics represent. After a few examples, the reader should be able to pick it up by analogy.

Fantasy novels often have to do the same sort of thing, so that's a good genre to look to if you want to see examples of how this is handled.

a_morris · Sep 8, 2008

Ok not doing Japanese honorifics then.

NeuroFizz · Sep 9, 2008

"Ms. Jones, this is Mr. Adams."
"Pleased to meet you, Ms. Jones," Adams said. "Can you go to lunch now? Mr. Smith is going to join me, and Ms. Conner may make it as well. We'd love it if you'd joins us."
"Thank you, Mr. Adams. I always wanted to meet Mr. Smith and Ms. Conner."

While cultural sensitivity and accuracy is admirable, honorifics can become horrorifics really fast. Write for your audience and pile in the accuracy just short of the point where it negatively impacts the prose, the dialogue, or the story. In fact, add accuracy when it enhances the story. If it is of neutral value, don't overdo it or it can become a negative really fast (in my opinion, of course).

hammerklavier · Sep 9, 2008

You should only refer to them. Something along the lines of:

He introduced himself in the high manner of the Japanese.

Junko, in his excitement to hear the story of the fight, failed to great Raj and was corrected by his mother for his poor manners.

As you do this throughout the course of the story, your reader will end up knowing something about honorifics without thinking them horrorific.

ishtar'sgate · Sep 9, 2008

a_morris said:
I'm writing a soft sf novel set on a world based on modern Japan. Japanese honorifics are more complicated than Mr, Miss, Ms and Mrs. I can use the rules governing honorifics as second nature. I'd like to use them but I can't explain them to my readers because there is no place in my plot for someone who is so much of a tourist that they need to be taught about them and info dumps are bad.
quote]

Much too much. It detracts from the flow of the storyline. We don't introduce one another using Mr., Mrs., Ms. or Miss so there's no reason to do so even if your novel is set in Japan. I'd reserve the Japanese honorifics for more formal occassions in your story - say a government dinner or something like that. Just my opinion, though.
Linnea

Tocotin · Sep 10, 2008

I'd say yeah, get rid of the honorifics, they are confusing and dangerous too. But I have one advice if I may: if you have any siblings in your story, just remember not to let the younger address their elder brothers/sisters by name. That alone doesn't happen. Anything else goes

Fullback said:
Good morning!

The man would say someone was beautiful with his eyes only and would never hug in public. The mother would simply answer that she had three children. Taking out a photo and rattling off names would require the other person to feel obligated to remember the names, or feign interest when they truly have no reason to be interested or force them to say something (usually insincere) about the children.

Western culture is filled with touching, feeling and insincere words and actions. Japanese culture is not. There is insincerity, but it is understood explicitly when something is meant to maintain a mood, and not meant to be taken seriously. Japanese do not say that they "love" a pair of shoes, hug strangers, feign friendship or overstate feelings. Love is a word for people, not things. Shoes are nice and hamburgers are delicious. You don't love them in Japan.

Western people will talk incessantly for hours to a stranger seated next to them on an airplane, exchanging business cards, birthdays and all the gory and tawdry details of their life, promising eternal brotherly love through war and peace, but it's all crap and forgotten after walking down the ramp.

Japanese don't bother with it and don't even introduce themselves or talk to a stranger seated next to them. They are not being rude, they are just being practical and conserving the energy required to put up the facade of friendship that westerners do.

I'm sorry, but I think that what you said above is a little bit too extreme. Yes, Japanese are rather reserved and sometimes have problems with small talk. But the differences are not that great, and someone who is too shy can be perceived as boorish and rude.

Yes, the vocabulary concerning love is very different. But there wasn't even such word as high, platonic love in Japanese until 19th century; and they still can and do say that they love hamburgers or shoes.

Men say compliments quite often in public - even to other men - and they comment on people's appearances: height, hair color, even breast size, especially if they are drunk; they can be quite straightforward. They often hug and kiss publicly too, especially young people. Only elder people don't do that.

dirtsider · Sep 10, 2008

Try a book called Kiss, Bow, or Shake Hands. It's a book on etiquette in foreign countries, primarily for doing business. But it might give you some ideas of dealing with the different foreign cultures.

GunDoctor · Jun 6, 2009

“Jon-san, I have a question,” Miru said.
“What is “san?” Jon asked.
“San” is Japanese for Mister or Miss.”
“Go ahead, Miru-san,” Jon said with a smile.

That's how I explained the Mister or Miss thingy in "Interservice Rivalry" (the subject of many queries to agents).
Hope that helps

motormind · Jun 7, 2009

My latest WIP takes place in Japan (although I never mention the country), but I decided to dispense with the honorifics altogether and show the relationship between the characters by other means. Honorifics are very confusing to people who haven't learned about them before.

BlueLucario · Jun 7, 2009

Just wronge

From what I see, the characterization isn't my concern. You're using the honorific completely wrong. Japanese people do not use it unless the are addressing the person they were referring to. Take it from me who has the knowledge and fixation with japanese culture.

Tocotin · Jun 7, 2009

BlueLucario said:
Japanese people do not use it unless the are addressing the person they were referring to.

Japanese people use honorifics all the time and not necessarily only when addressing the person. They also use honorifics when speaking about objects and abstract concepts.

motormind · Jun 7, 2009

Tocotin said:
Japanese people use honorifics all the time and not necessarily only when addressing the person. They also use honorifics when speaking about objects and abstract concepts.

Yes, but only in a limited sense by placing "o" in front of certain words. They do use honorifics when talking about someone. In any case, I don't think you should use them in a story written for a non-Japanese audience, unless it's about introducing the concept to a character who is not from Japan.

Tocotin · Jun 7, 2009

motormind said:
Yes, but only in a limited sense by placing "o" in front of certain words. They do use honorifics when talking about someone. In any case, I don't think you should use them in a story written for a non-Japanese audience, unless it's about introducing the concept to a character who is not from Japan.

I'm not defending the concept of using honorifics in a story written in English. I agree with you that they can be omitted easily. I was only trying to say that honorifics are used very often, not only when addressing the person.

Btw, it's not only o, but also go and mi.

Birol · Jun 7, 2009

You guys do realize this is a resurrected thread from 2008, don't you? If so, carry on.

motormind · Jun 7, 2009

Birol said:
You guys do realize this is a resurrected thread from 2008, don't you? If so, carry on.

What, the Japanese dropped using honorifics since then?

Birol · Jun 7, 2009

Nope. But the person who resurrected this thread was addressing a topic from September and a person who has not logged in since April. As I said, if you're aware of this, carry on. I'm not telling anyone how to spend their time.

Indirectly · Jun 7, 2009

I kind of like when old threads get resurrected and new info added. I never know when it'll be useful.

Japanese honorifics in dialogue

Life long learner

Hapless Virago

Militant apathist

practical experience, FTW

Life long learner

The grad students did it

It was a dark and stormy night

living in the past

deceives

Not so new, really

Waking the neighbors

Blood Elves FTW

deceives

deceives

Around and About

Around and About