Please before I destroy my Elements of Style

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Stlight

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I can't get this one, I've tried for days, so please help

He remembered his mother telling him and his brother a story about...

or

He remembered his mother telling his brother and him a story about...


I'd really like to have this in the book, but honestly everything is starting to sound and look wrong.

Yes, you may feel free to tell me which page the answer is on in the Elements of style. I didn't find it.

Thank you.

Stlight
 

qwerty

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The first version seems fine to me. The second one seems a bit clunky, but I can't say why.

Maybe: He remembered his mother telling his brother and himself a story about...

Here's hoping someone else can be more helpful
 
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Dawnstorm

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Maybe: He remembered his mother telling his brother and himself a story about...

No, not "himself". The subject of the verb "telling" is "mother"; conversly "him" is not the objcet of the verb "remembered".

***

Both are fine. Without context, I agree with qwerty that the first sounds better, but I think that's because it emphasises the brother, and I can rush through "him and his" which has alliteration and is a catchy repetition. In other words, I think my preference is for the way the sound-quality and speech-rhythm rather than for meaning.

***

And please, please, please destroy your Elements of Style. Once copy less of that horrid little booklet would make the writing world a better place. ;) [Sorry, I've been biting my tongue while lurking in that thread, so the title of this one was to good to pass up.]

Seriously, I do think that Elements of Style is a vague, arbitrary and overly opinionated list of private peeves. It started life as a teaching aide, and it should have remained that - modified and updated within the classroom rather than on the editing desk, and by the teacher using it. What's arbitrary to the reading public at large is quite targeted to the group of students that gave rise to said peeves. The vagueness can be taken care of in class context, too. "Overly Opinionated", I'm afraid, is a personal touch, but with my other two criticisms taken care of, I could live with that.
 

dpaterso

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I'm leaning towards "He remembered his mother telling him and his brother a story about..." which is plain and clear.

Elements of Style is a rough guide, not a bible.

-Derek
 

qwerty

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No, not "himself". The subject of the verb "telling" is "mother"; conversly "him" is not the objcet of the verb "remembered".

Nevertheless, as is "him", "himself" is a pronoun, albeit reflexive.

Not being familiar with Elements of Style, I just googled it and found it pertains to American English.

Hey, guys, there's an international world out here.
 

Troo

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He remembered his mother telling him and his brother a story about...

or

He remembered his mother telling his brother and him a story about...

The reason you're struggling is because you're focussing on one small thing rather than the root of the problem, which is the ungainly sentence structure.

Try jiggling it around a little, e.g.:

His mother once told him a story. He remembered it now. He and his brother were X years old at the time, and the tale of XYZ had scared the bejeesus out of them both.

or

He remembered his mother once telling the story of XYZ. He and his brother had listened, unsure of why she was saying such things, but now it all became clear.

You're trying to throw all your information into one sentence. Spread it out a little. Let it seep through to the reader a piece at a time :)
 

qwerty

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The reason you're struggling is because you're focussing on one small thing rather than the root of the problem, which is the ungainly sentence structure.

You're trying to throw all your information into one sentence. Spread it out a little. Let it seep through to the reader a piece at a time :)

Um, as a "reader" I had no problem with absorbing: He remembered his mother telling him and his brother a story about...

To be honest, I didn't find that sentence ungainly (although I felt the second option was a bit clunky). Either way, they both say what the writer wants to convey. Which is basically that someone remembered something the mother of that person told him and his brother.

I'd like to point out that the OP asked which of two alternatives were better. Totally re-writng someone's sentence isn't always constructive.
 

Bufty

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Yes, and I think that little book is still worth its weight in gold.

A periodic flick through its pages can remind one of things that have perhaps slipped from one's mind -if they were ever there at all - as evidenced by a scan of the SYW Forum.

And because this is a grammar forum I can't help mentioning I don't think 'because' is required after 'The reason ... is' in a previous post.

Nevertheless, as is "him", "himself" is a pronoun, albeit reflexive.

Not being familiar with Elements of Style, I just googled it and found it pertains to American English.

Hey, guys, there's an international world out here.
 
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Dawnstorm

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Nevertheless, as is "him", "himself" is a pronoun, albeit reflexive.

True. But what is your point?

My point, perhaps confusingly phrased, was that reflexivity is incorrect in "remembered his mother telling [3rd person pronoun] and his brouther", because it's the mother telling him, not he telling himself.

"Himself" could also be emphatic, as in:

"He did it himself," or "Who would enter at that very moment but myself?"

I don't think emphasis works either, here, though this a bit more debatable.

Bufty said:
A periodic flick through its pages can remind one of things that have perhaps slipped from one's mind -if they were ever there at all - as evidenced by a scan of the SYW Forum.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. That texts get better with the EoS-treatment?

Actually, I'm not sure that the things EoS reminds people of are actually in the book and not just in people's minds. For instance, either White or Angell weakened what Strunk said in the original about "active/passive voice" by the simple act of example-substitution.

Strunk writes:

Strunk said:
Many a tame sentence of description or exposition can be made lively and emphatic by substituting a transitive in the active voice for some such perfunctory expression as there is, or could be heard.
One of the example pairs:

"The sound of the falls could still be heard." // "The sound of the falls still reached our ears."

This was later replaced by:

"At dawn the crowing of a rooster could be heard." // "The cock's crow came with dawn." (I don't currently have any later editions available, so could anyone check whether I made a mistake here?)

Now, notice this:

"Reached our ears" is "a transitive in the active voice", the thing that Strunk means to demonstrate. "Came with dawn", on the other hand, is an intransitive with an adjunct. This means that in later editions this example does not illustrate what Strunk is saying, but something more losely related to this.

Now, since Strunk never explained in the first place what he was on about in this section (the quote above is the only occurrance of "transitive" in the entire rule) I'm left unsure what the entire rule is supposed to mean.

Notice that other examples in there are: "There were ... leaves lying on the ground." This is not an example of passive voice, so Strunk's "Use the active voice," is somewhat broader than "Don't use the passive voice". It would be interesting to know what Strunk would have thought about "intransitive verbs" (verbs that take no object), but he's - misleadingly - focussing on the active-passive distinction.

Basically, the reader is left to figure out the meaning on his own; and - to my mind - later editors got it wrong with the "cock" example. It's a cock up. (I love bad puns.)

Almost all the book is that vague. It's more rough than a guideline. It's really more of a bible, reinforcing what you already know in your heart, leaving everyone who disagrees with you a heretic.

A good booklet would have tried to help you understand the "rules" in question, but Strunk really only used his rules as a bludgeon of authority. (He was a teacher; the "helping understand" would have taken place in the classroom, I suspect. It's White's hero-worship that messed things up: the Elements of Style without Strunk is a desouled booklet.)

Finally, you'll notice how the sentence that decries "could be heard" contains an equivalent construction: "can be made lively and emphatic". How are we supposed to deal with that. I agree dpaterson: it's a rough guide, not a bible. I disagree with people who claim Strunk is a hypocrite.

But it is a flaw in the composition of the booklet, I find. The meta structure (what is in the book, what isn't, and how it's written) suggests that we're on our own when it comes to applying the "rules"; but the "rules" are written with authority. The effect of this is:

I, the teacher, am the authority. I know how to break my rules. You, the students, are supposed to respect my authority. You best adhere to the rules, unless you prove that you can break the rules. I'm not going to help you get there. You'll have to do it yourself.

This wasn't necessarily Strunk's position, mind you. I'm actually guessing it's the removal of the class-room situation that causes that effect. (I'd probably still disagree with Strunk about some stylistic choices being bad, but that could be productive.)

To my mind, the things that reading S&W reminds you off are vague dogma; and I get that impression precisely from perusing online critique pages (including SYW). I suppose there's a difference of perception at work (and no: "I suppose a difference of perception is at work," would not be better, here. :tongue )
 

Troo

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I'd like to point out that the OP asked which of two alternatives were better. Totally re-writng someone's sentence isn't always constructive.

*Shrugs* That's how you feel. There's no harm in offering alternatives. Only the OP can say whether or not they were of use to him/her.
 

Bufty

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Dawnstorm, I am not suggesting the wee book (current version) is anything other than a rough guide, but apart from the technical grammar issues you touch upon it still contains many helpful reminders of the simpler things folk forget.

I think the free web version is many years old.
 

qwerty

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True. But what is your point?

I think my point was in pointing out that both "him" and "himself" qualify as personal pronouns, regardless of subject, object or verb contained within the sentence in question. If I was incorrect in my assumption, I am happy to stand corrected.

Troo, if my post made you feel petulant, shrug away. I admit to being uncomfortable about your rather assertive statement: "The reason you're struggling is because you're focussing on one small thing rather than the root of the problem, which is the ungainly sentence structure." Opinions are one thing. Stating what is or isn't the case is going beyond offering an opinion.
 

maestrowork

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I can't get this one, I've tried for days, so please help

He remembered his mother telling him and his brother a story about...

or

He remembered his mother telling his brother and him a story about...

Both are grammatically correct, but as far as style goes, the first one flows better. The second just reads clunky.
 

maestrowork

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I think my point was in pointing out that both "him" and "himself" qualify as personal pronouns, regardless of subject, object or verb contained within the sentence in question. If I was incorrect in my assumption, I am happy to stand corrected.

"Himself" is only used when the subject and object are the same person:

He told himself to stay calm.


He remembered his mother telling himself and his brother...

... is incorrect because the object "himself" is connected to the subject "mother" and not "he." Do a sentence diagram and you'll see which subject-object pair goes with the verb "tell." And this has nothing to do with UK or American English.


However, I admit that "He remembered his mother telling his brother and himself" sounds better, for some reason, even if it's still grammatically incorrect.
 
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maestrowork

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And because this is a grammar forum I can't help mentioning I don't think 'because' is required after 'The reason ... is' in a previous post.

It's one of my pet peeves:

"The reason I was late is because I got caught in traffic."

Eeek. It should be either:

"The reason I was late is that I got caught in traffic." or

"I was late because I got caught in traffic."
 

Dawnstorm

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Dawnstorm, I am not suggesting the wee book (current version) is anything other than a rough guide, but apart from the technical grammar issues you touch upon it still contains many helpful reminders of the simpler things folk forget.

So what is it, than, that it should remind me of? To make the paragraph the unit of composition? To use the active voice? To write with nouns and verbs not adjectives and adverbs?

My impression is that it's not a very good guide in the first place. The "technical grammar issues" I mention aren't superficial quibbles, IMO. They seriously mar the value of the book. It's like a swimming teacher drops into the deep waters, tells you to do one type of stroke, while he himself does all kinds of other fancy tricks, and claims drowning is your fault for not following his words (as opposed to his example).

For experienced writers, it may be a good expression of writerly judgement they already hold, if they do so. The reminders function much like a Hail Mary reminding you that you're a Catholic.

The questions raised in the rules are rarely addressed. Instead, they're silenced with dogma... Argh, rant mode again. :eek:

I think the free web version is many years old.

The free web version's from 1918. I've compared it to a more recent version (3rd edition; I've yet to see the 4th). My core criticism holds (or doesn't hold) for both the 1918 original and the 3rd edition. (I've never seen 2nd or 4th, but I doubt they're any better.)

I think my point was in pointing out that both "him" and "himself" qualify as personal pronouns, regardless of subject, object or verb contained within the sentence in question. If I was incorrect in my assumption, I am happy to stand corrected.

No, you're absolutely right about that. You're supplying a correct piece of information. I'm just wondering why you're supplying it, or - alternatively - why you're quoting me when you're doing it.

***

Gah, I'm not making friends today.
 

Bufty

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D. It is, to a beginner writer or someone who is contemplating starting to write a book or whatever, a useful collection of points to be kept in mind. Many, many folk don't have large technical English grammar books so in that sense it is also helpful for beginners.

Beyond that it's packed with straightforward sensible advice on style - say what you mean, mean what you say, don't use big clever words if a smaller one will suffice, don't waste words, be sparse with exclamation points, don't be vague, use positive instead of negative phrases, and on and on...

These, and other points touched upon in S & W may be routine to many folk -to many others they are not.

I don't know why you are attacking it -it's not meant to be a substitute for the text or reference books used by a linguist or grammarian.

And here's a hug -just because -:Hug2:
 
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qwerty

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No, you're absolutely right about that. You're supplying a correct piece of information. I'm just wondering why you're supplying it, or - alternatively - why you're quoting me when you're doing it.
.

Um, because you asked me what was my point. (post#10)

Ouch, we came in here to try and answer stlight's question, not to get our knickers in a twist and argue with each other.

TRUCE - HUGS - POPCORN - Whatever it takes, with or without en or em dashes with knobs on.
 

Dawnstorm

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I don't know why you are attacking it -it's not meant to be a substitute for the text or reference books used by a linguist or grammarian.

I don't know how to answer this without going into more of the same. I honestly think the booklet, depending on what sort of style is native to you, can ruin your style rather than help you evolve. It may be fine for "bold, American frontiersmen," but it will never - not even in advanced stages - produce stylists like Rushdie, whom I'm reading right now. It's not a matter of new/advanced; it's a matter of preference.

I'm putting forward the hypothesis, for example, that extroverts are better served by that booklet than introverts (and guess who shouts louder, thus giving a free PR effect). That may be true, partly true, or complete nonsense. [Look, I'm violating the rule "Use parallel constructions".] But EoS doesn't account for difference in preference, and the target readership looks to me more like "bold, American frontiersmen" than, say, "laidback, British colonialists".
And here's a hug -just because -:Hug2:
Aw, thanks. :Hug2:

Despite the way my posts might read, I don't enjoy being contrarian.

qwerty said:
Ouch, we came in here to try and answer stlight's question, not to get our knickers in a twist and argue with each other.

TRUCE - HUGS - POPCORN - Whatever it takes, with or without en or em dashes with knobs on.

My fault. I inspire this sort of argument.

Yay, popcorn. :D
 

CaroGirl

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That may be true, partly true, or complete nonsense. [Look, I'm violating the rule "Use parallel constructions".]
No you aren't. That is in parallel construction.

That may be true.
That may be partly true.
That may be complete nonsense.

How is that not parallel?
 

Troo

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Troo, if my post made you feel petulant, shrug away. I admit to being uncomfortable about your rather assertive statement: "The reason you're struggling is because you're focussing on one small thing rather than the root of the problem, which is the ungainly sentence structure." Opinions are one thing. Stating what is or isn't the case is going beyond offering an opinion.

You seem to be reading petulance when what was intended was indifference. I apologise for not communicating more clearly.
 

qwerty

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My fault. I inspire this sort of argument.

Can I change "argument" to discussion? (or even intellectual intercourse if I'm allowed to get away with that). And, sod it, if we didn't care, we wouldn't even bother to post.
 

Dawnstorm

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No you aren't. That is in parallel construction.

That may be true.
That may be partly true.
That may be complete nonsense.

How is that not parallel?

true = adjective phrase

partly true = adjective phrase

complete nonsense = noun phrase

See? (I am legend, vs. I am legendary, Hehe)

If I were to go into even more detail:

true = adjective phrase [adj]

partly true = adjective phrase [adv:adj]

complete nonsense = noun phrase [adj:n]

So that the middle construction differs from the first but has in common with the last that it has a modifier.

To use completely parallel structures I would have had to say:

This may be true, semitrue, or nonsensical.

Three plain adjectives. See? (Even introducing a hyphen, which I'd prefer, would cause an imbalance.)

To clarify, what I've said is the structural (though not semantic) equivalence of:

This vegetable is red, brightly red, or a tomato. ;)

How freely are we allowed to interpret the rules? When do we break them? Bend them? A lot of conflict about such rules is about that: "But I thought I was doing this!"

qwerty said:
Can I change "argument" to discussion? (or even intellectual intercourse if I'm allowed to get away with that). And, sod it, if we didn't care, we wouldn't even bother to post.

It's a discussion and not an argument? Yay!

Seriously, though. Sometimes I wonder whether I'm going too far.
 

CaroGirl

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true = adjective phrase

partly true = adjective phrase

complete nonsense = noun phrase

See? (I am legend, vs. I am legendary, Hehe)
Ah. I see. Thanks.

In my little world, parallel construction simply requires that each phrase follow logically from the introductory phrase, not that they all (necessarily) need to be the same parts of speech. Each of those phrases follows logically and has grammatical meaning (not like "I am legendary", which does not).

To me, non-parallel is something like: I like to go to the store, play hockey, and sheep.
 
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