Bible Code

Status
Not open for further replies.

Come Back Kid

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
170
Reaction score
28
Location
Nashville, Tn.
My wife and I disagree on the Bible Code. I happen to believe there is something to it, even though nobody has come to a conclusion as to how to utilize this code. I can see it helping some people believe in God, since it would require a supernatural being to insert such amazing facts concerning world events.
Anyone have any comments?
Thanks,
Jim
 

auntybug

teh other evil broad
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
6,097
Reaction score
11,418
Location
I am destined for greatness. I'm just pacing mysel
Website
www.junekramin.com
I have it but haven't gotten though the whole thing. They had a talk about it at a church we attended a couple times so it sparked my interest. It was interesting that the guy that wrote it was an atheist but can't deny there is an actual code there but I still have doubts ... its great for telling you "what already was"..it's not really "predicting" anything so to speak.

I won't poo-poo it if thats someones thing - I just have a lot of great AWer books I'd rather get into right now :)
 

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
2,462
Reaction score
420
Location
The Great Wide Open
Take any sufficiently large text...the Oxford English Dictionary, for example.
Now. Take the ELS method used in the Bible Code.
Apply it to the OED.
What do you get?
 

Mac H.

Board Visitor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
2,812
Reaction score
406
It really is a crackpot theory, I'm afraid.

Sure, it works. It also works if you don't use the Bible and use, say, Moby Dick.

Even the author of 'The Bible Code' (Michael Drosnin) has conceded:

When my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister encrypted in Moby Dick, I'll believe them.
(Newsweek, Jun 9, 1997)
There are plenty of predictions hidden in the text of 'Moby Dick' - but the most impressive one is the assassination of John F Kennedy

See this list for just a sample of famous predictions hidden in the text of Moby Dick: http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/codes/moby.html

It doesn't tell use a thing about the Bible, the Torah or Moby Dick.

It tells us everything about ourselves.

Mac
 
Last edited:

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
Humans like to look for threads of meaning where probably none exist.
 

Minister

Unpredictable preacher
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
175
Reaction score
22
Location
In the South-East, once again - of Michigan this t
Website
www.tominister.blogspot.com
There is plenty of prophecy in plain sight in the Bible. There's no need to invent more. I'll be impressed when we actually understand and obey the parts of Scripture that are plainly stated. Once we've gotten that down, maybe then we can go scouring for the hidden.

As to the mathematical ease of finding a code, I haven't read the books detailing the so-called code, but my suspicion is that finding such patterns in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, is even easier than it is for most books, given the nature of the written form of Hebrew.
 

windyrdg

New kid, be gentle!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Messages
526
Reaction score
89
Location
So Oregon Coast looking at the ocean
Website
capearagopress.com
It's an interesting theory. Randy Ingermansen, who's a PhD physicist and mathametican, has done some work on this. You can find it on his website. He studied it and came to the conclusion it doesn't exist.

Personally I always wondered why God would go to that much trouble. The other problem that I see is which translation are you going to use? The nice thing about, say John 3:16, is it doesn't change much from one version to another.
 

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
12,799
Reaction score
2,500
Location
West Michigan
My wife and I disagree on the Bible Code. I happen to believe there is something to it, even though nobody has come to a conclusion as to how to utilize this code. I can see it helping some people believe in God, since it would require a supernatural being to insert such amazing facts concerning world events.
Anyone have any comments?
Thanks,
Jim
Unfortunately, I fall in the disbelief camp as well.

Now, if different translations made the same predictions based on the corresponding words/verses, that might be a different thing.
 

Norman D Gutter

Engineer Sonneteer
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
2,144
Reaction score
353
Location
Arkansas, USA
Website
davidatodd.com
I read about 2/3 of the original book; found it too tedious to continue. Have the second book as well, both picked up second-hand.

The code, if it exists, is found in the original Hebrew Torah, not in any translation. I don't believe the researchers have gone outside the Torah to the rest of the Hebrew scripture. According to the book, the Hebrew text of the Torah is undisputed in the last thousand years, maybe longer. So the whole idea of applying it to translations is outside the scope of the original research.

I don't know whether this code exists within the original Hebrew text or not. The book is very convincing as to the sincerity of the workers and the accuracy of the work. But of course it's all in Hebrew. Therefore the examples shown in the book are in Hebrew, and the many illustrations prove nothing to me. I can't independently verify the work.

I think Dan brings up a good point about the nature of written Hebrew, what little I know about it, being more conducive for finding such a code than other languages.

NDG
 

Deleted member 42

The very concept is idiotic, and no, the code doesn't exist--even in the Torah.
 

Gehanna

Introvert
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
2,139
Reaction score
429
Hello Medievalist,

Why do you find the concept idiotic?

Sincerely,
Gehanna
 

Ruv Draba

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
5,114
Reaction score
1,322
This is a Christian writer forum. Writers tend to be fairly well-informed people, and Christians have lived successfully in a culture of scientific learning for over four hundred years.

I believe that well-informed people of any faith, living in an enlightened scientific culture don't need to credit this sort of bunkum. Certainly, I believe that Christianity itself can't benefit from this sort of conspiracy-theory inanity. Bible Code, Da Vinci Code - just say no. :)

So why is it bunkum?

Firstly, although the original Witzum, Yips and Rozenberg (WYR) paper appeared in Statistical Science in 1994 that fact doesn't legitimise any wild claims. Science contains the highest concentration of iconoclastic skeptics in the world - but every scientist loves a puzzle. Offering a 'hidden code' inside any text (whether Biblical or not) is guaranteed to get scientists interested - and that interest gets you published - but only because you're reporting a fun, statistical curio. It doesn't mean that any subsequent wild claims are creditable or accepted by the scientific community.

The WYR paper saw an unprecedented three rounds of peer reviewing. As a scientist who has reviewed papers (though not that one) I can well imagine what the reviewers were saying:
'These guys are making a mischievous claim. Put their paper into the loony basket'
'No, they're just reporting a curio - and the curio is factual and interesting. And they haven't actually made a wild claim about the significance here.'
'Well.. okay, but you'll regret publishing this! Every loony will come crawling out of the woodwork'
'Sure, but it'll be fun, and it will help us learn more about stats'​
Secondly, the wild claims (as opposed to the statistical curios) are essentially claims of bibliomancy. Bibliomancy has been around for 3,000 years at least. Ancient Greeks used to look for secret messages from the gods in Homer; Romans did it with Virgil and the Hindus do it with their Vedas. Right away that should give you a clue: people are predisposed to find special secret meaning in their literature. This is an example of what psychologists call confirmation bias -- that when we're looking hard for something, we're willing to redefine what it actually is so that we can recognise it. In support of confirmation bias as an explanation, people have found ELS curios in other, secular books too. (The other way you can tell confirmation bias is that what you find tends to be fairly trivial and banal considering the effort it takes to find it - which appears to be the case in the 'Bible code' too.)

Thirdly, what's the supposed mechanism for salting a code into literature? When it's a single book by a single author such as the Da Vinci Code, the author can easily contrive the code. But what about when it's a multi-edited, multi-authored, multi-translated anthology like the Bible? This is where the conspiracy theorists and their tinfoil hats start to crawl out of the woodwork. Whatever mechanism they claim for Biblical coding must surely apply elsewhere. If a god is whispering into multiple ears all the time, then that should apply ubiquitously. But why do that? Why hide a message you want to communicate? And why messages that are so trivial? This is where your typical conspiracy theorist introduces the inevitable grandiose, self-important paranoia: the message is only for the Elect; it's only when we're Ready; there's an Enemy who mustn't Know the Message... blah blah blah

Penultimately, I believe that the main attraction for some Christians to believe that their holy book has secret codes is to legitimise it as a holy book, and perhaps make it 'more special' than anyone else's holy books. But this is a misguided impulse.

New holy books are being created every generation with each new religion, cult and sect. And if secret codes are a crucial pillar of legitimacy then anyone can fabricate them. Just ask Dan Brown. More than that, Christianity has never needed physical proof of specialness to make it a worthwhile religion. And if it ever grounds itself in that evidence (e.g. needs miracles to be credible) then such evidence also forms a basis of disproof. Christians, I feel, do a disservice to future generations of Christians to get too excited about miracles and secret codes. In effect, they discredit the religion of their children with their own ignorance and zealotry. Historically, we know that 'miracles' don't survive scientific scrutiny for very long. Madonna's tears prove to be made of canola oil, and dips in fountains prove to be no more effective than a placebo, and death-shrouds prove to be fakes. Ergo, if you want a credible, sustainable religion, don't base it on wild claims of physical miracles.

And finally, Christianity itself shuns benighted practices such as bibliomancy. Leviticus (19:26) is pretty firm about this in his account of Mosaic law: Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.

Conspiracy theories make pretty lures for the gullible and ignorant, and fun diversions for writers and the imaginative alike. But as writers we shouldn't be gulled by the same product that we sell. My advice in short: don't get caught up in this nonsense. No respectable religion needs it, and it makes faith look foolish.

Yours respectfully from an atheistic, skeptical but pluralistic perspective,

Ruv.
 
Last edited:

Mac H.

Board Visitor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
2,812
Reaction score
406
Why do you find the concept idiotic?
Gehanna, I'm not the person you addressed the question, but as a reference point, what would you consider a non-idiotic concept?

For example, the overall concept (as outlined by the author of 'The Bible Code') is:

a. Aliens from space influenced the creation of the Christian Bible and filled it with secret messages
b. Aliens from space also put a secret key to decode their words and hid it on an obelisk - possibly the Egyptian pyramids.

This is NOT a Christian philosophy. Is there ANY world view that you would agree is idiotic?

Sure, idiotic concepts may turn out to be true. This may be one of them. But the general idea is what many people may call 'idiotic'. (Just for the record, I'm not one of them. I love quixotic charges. It would be idiotic to NOT have idiotic ideas occassionally)

---

Some more general points:

1. It relies on the idea that the text is 'correct'.

Even in the case of the Hebrew Torah, there are at least 40 differences in accepted early copies of Deutoronomy alone.

Sure, the differences may be trivial when read normally, but Drosnin's method relies on the lengths of words, so a SINGLE character difference invalidates it entirely!

2. The author (Drosnin) uses the method to predict major destruction of US cities by earthquakes in 2006. It didn't happen.

3. The author uses the method to predict that Jerusalem would be destroyed in a Nuclear attack in 2006.
It didn't happen.

What more do you need?

Mac
 
Last edited:

Gehanna

Introvert
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
2,139
Reaction score
429
I don't know much of anything about the Bible Code other than having heard the words before. I am gathering my initial knowledge base about the subject from this thread. For this reason, I am interested in the opinions being posted here. Medievalist ended her post with, "--even in the Torah." Those final words peaked my interest in her opinion and I hoped she might elaborate.

I enjoy learning the what as well as the why. Why is my favorite question. Although I do not always receive the answer, asking "Why?" is my need.

Sincerely,
Gehanna
 

Sean D. Schaffer

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
1,433
I know this thread is a little old, but I've wanted to respond for a while now.

I agree with Minister on this whole scenario. Jesus said, "They have Moses and the Prophets. If they will not listen to them, then they will not listen even if one came to them from the dead."

Of course, this is from the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. And it makes a good point. How many people are searching through a Bible Code for answers, while the whole time they're not willing to listen to what the Bible plainly says? I'm not saying there is no Bible Code, just that people need to listen to what the Bible puts right in front of our faces before we move on to codes and stuff like that.

My viewpoint on the Code, therefore, could probably be summed up this way: we won't find out how to use it, until we admit we need to use the portions of the Bible that are plainly spoken, that everyone can read. And I don't see that kind of stuff happening anytime soon, simply because of the arrogant nature of Humanity.

And just so you all know, I'm not focusing in this discussion on the entire world; I'm focusing specifically on those peoples who claim the Bible as their holy book: Christians, Jews, Noahides, etc. Until the peoples who claim that they believe and follow Scripture, actually do what they claim they're doing, Humanity will never be able to prove one way or the other, a Bible Code, how it works, or how to use it.

Again, to quote Christ: "They have Moses and the Prophets. If they will not believe them, then they will not listen, even if one comes to them from the dead."

We who love the Bible and claim it as our Holy Book, must follow its plain teachings of love, kindness, goodness, etc., or we will never be able to fully justify or debunk, whatever the case may be, any such thing as the Bible Code.
 

Bartholomew

Comic guy
Kind Benefactor
Poetry Book Collaborator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
8,507
Reaction score
1,957
Location
Kansas! Again.
I wonder if my publisher would let me re-arrange Spider Slayer so that it had a mathematic code seeded into it...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.