Dilemma - great characters, no story!

Kristy101081

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OK, I'm curious as to what you guys think because I have absolutely no objectivity when it comes to this.

I'm working on a script. I love the characters, but I don't really have a story to tell. I'm in the process of going through the antagonist's history to find what drives him (I know what drives the protag), but I wonder if I'm wasting time. So, I put this script aside and go work on something else. But, I'm invariably drawn back to this script. I love the characters and I've got some cool ideas, but nothing strong enough for 120 pages at this point.

Should I force myself to shelve this puppy and revisit it later? Or do I stay the course and find the story?
 

zagoraz

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It's tough to write an awesome screenplay without a story. I've struggled with this myself in the past. Maybe the story is there, you just can't see it. Maybe you need some distance from it. Work on something else for a while and come back. The best ideas often come to you when you're not even looking for them.

Worse comes to worse, you could always turn your script into a play or use the characters you love so much in a different script idea that has a story.
 

Beach Bunny

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I think a bit of brainstorming might be of some use. Is there something the antagonist and protagonist could compete for? What goal could one have that the other would want to thwart? Maybe asking yourself those kinds of questions and putting down every idea no matter how silly will help that great idea rise to the surface. Because I think that the reason you keep coming back to these characters is because there is a story there wanting to get out.
 

kullervo

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Character in screenplays is expressed in action first and foremost. Hitchcock once said that the script for his new film was finished-- all they had to do was add the dialogue and they'd be ready to shoot. I suspect you're putting too much weight on the dialogue, if there's no story going on. I'd advise you to think about the rule that a movie should make sense with the sound turned off. Work on the script from that angle until it does.
 

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Think harder. Where's the conflict? Does the antag want the same thing as the protag? A love interest? An object? Is there rivalry between them, is honor at stake? Are there broader event or political issues that define the setting? Or genre expectations? Where and why do they bump heads?

-Derek
 

stuckupmyownera

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I have this trouble all the time. Great scenarios with no central story problem. Or with seemingly unsolvable story problems that I can't bring to a satisfying conclusion.

The folks at the Sandbox have really helped me out with brainstorming on a couple - maybe you should try sharing your scenario and seeing what others suggest?

But it seems to me if you've got a protag and an antag, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out why they are opposed and insert a goal for them to fight over.

Let us know how you get on!
 

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Think about how you'd like the story to end, then work backward from there. Or, write a scene that you are particularly passionate about, it doesn't matter, for the moment, where this scene will ultimately go. I find that either of these get me, and my story going.

Also, since you have characters that you're enthused about, take one, or all of them, and imagine them 'in' another story. Just plop them in the middle of a scene. What would they do? How would the storyline change?

Let us know.

MA
 

nmstevens

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OK, I'm curious as to what you guys think because I have absolutely no objectivity when it comes to this.

I'm working on a script. I love the characters, but I don't really have a story to tell. I'm in the process of going through the antagonist's history to find what drives him (I know what drives the protag), but I wonder if I'm wasting time. So, I put this script aside and go work on something else. But, I'm invariably drawn back to this script. I love the characters and I've got some cool ideas, but nothing strong enough for 120 pages at this point.

Should I force myself to shelve this puppy and revisit it later? Or do I stay the course and find the story?


If you want to take my advice (for what it's worth) -- forget about history.

Deal with *need* -- what do your characters need right now. You can always figure out the why and the wherefor of that need if you want later.

At the center of your story is your protagonist and his need and the opposition to that need.

But what is important to understand is that in the best constructed stories, both the need *and* the opposition are both present within the protagonist. In essence, need and opposition represent opposing aspects of the protagonist's personality.

I'll give you an example. Take Terry Malloy in "On the Waterfront" --

What does he need to do? He needs to do the right thing. That means informing on Johnny Friendly and his brother.

But he also has a deep loyalty to those figures -- family loyalty to his brother. Johnny Friendly is a kind of surrogate father. There is the "code of silence" that's been a surrogate morality that binds him and everyone around him.

In order to do the right thing he has to reject all of those things.

If you look at the characters that surround him, they externalize those *internal* aspects of his need - on the one hand, the need to do the right thing, on the other hand, the need to remain loyal.

So you have the priest and Eva Marie Saint who represent the former -- his brother and Johnny Friendly representing the latter -- *externalizing* the struggle that is going on inside.

The issue is much less what Johnny Friendly's past is about that made him what he is, or what made Terry's brother the way he is -- although you can explore that.

The real question is -- what do those characters represent in terms of the Protagonist's *internal* struggle. What aspect of that internal struggle do they externalize and illuminate.

You have that commonplace image of the angel and the devil on someone's shoulder -- but you would be surprised at how often, in story-telling, that that construction is used -- that you have a protagonist at the center, and you flank that character with others that mirror the divided aspect, the internal conflict that the character is suffering.

So you have Frodo in the middle -- and you flank him with Sam on one side -- and Gollum on the other. And obviously, they represent the two ways he might go. He can ultimately go in the direction embodied by Sam -- or go into darkness and become like Gollum. Just as Terry Malloy can go in the direction of darkness and become corrupt, like his brother and Johnny Friendly, or he can go in the other direction.

Same thing. You embody *choices* in the form of characters.

The challenge for you is to stop thinking about your characters as people you want to meet and go out with and have lunch with and start thinking about them more in strictly dramatic terms -- as entities in the dramatic space of a story where they must serve a dramatic purpose.

What is the dramatic purpose that your characters are serving? Is something missing? Is *someone* missing?

NMS
 

icerose

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I'm probably going to be the odd person out here. I say explore your characters if that's where they are leading you. Think of what you're doing as one long character sheet. If after you're done with all the history and everything like that and you still have no story, I'd say shelve it, while pulling it out now and then. You may not have a story now, but that doesn't mean there isn't one brewing in your subconscious just waiting for you to pull all the pieces together. I wouldn't suggest attempting to write the script without discovering the story, but you can definitely use this time to discover your characters so when the story comes into your mind, you'll be all ready for it.
 

Stylo

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Don't know how sharing you are with your babies, but have you thought about co-writing? If you get to the point where you really can't move this project forward, another writer may be able to supply the missing puzzle piece.
 

sharonda.harris84

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You can do two things here: 1.) Shelf it and come back to it later. 2.) Write a character driven screenplay (like Marty or Vera Drake or many of the French New Wave films). Writing a character-driven screenplay instead of a plot-driven screenplay will be alot more difficult to write and sell, especially if you are in the US. However, you still will need some type of conflict that your character has in order to have something to write about. They just can't be living their lives. Hope that helps.
 

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I wrote a character driven, slice of life, screenplay and I love it but it is impossible to sell because there is no plot. I am convinced I'll be forced to film it myself because I doubt anyone will be able to market it. However, after getting so much feedback about how it had no plot, every other script I wrote, I focused, nay, fixated on plot. This took a lot away from the characters. My opinion is just let it happen organically. A good story is a good story. Good is relative, but as long as you'd watch what you're writing you can;t go wrong. Write it, get it read, and apply the criticism where it applies.

I never focus on "is there a plot? are my character sympathetic or relatable? etc?" I just write what I have and hope something compelling and/or interesting is man-birthed out of it.
 

Raghu

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Kristy,

Let me tackle your posting in two ways. First of all you say you have great characters but no plot. That’s absolutely fine. Writers can get inspired in many ways and you seem to be inspired by your characters. One day Agatha Christy, one of my favourite authors, was going to her friend’s home along with her friend and when they got there they found that the friend’s brother has just finished reading a murder mystery. He put the book down, thought for a bit and said, “Why didn’t they ask Evans?” Christy got inspired by this and went ahead and wrote a bestseller based on the same title. So you see the title of the book came first, no plot, no characters, no nothing! My point is anything can inspire a book or a screenplay. Something that you read in the newspaper, a bit of conversation you eavesdropped on in the restaurant, something you saw on T.V. absolutely anything. But weaving that inspiration into a screenplay is however, a different story altogether.

There are two schools of thought regarding the creation of a plot in a book or screenplay. One school believes that it is the characters that give rise to the plot and the other school believes that that it is the plot that dictates the sort of characters to be created by the writer. I tend to take the middle path. When you are dealing with genres it becomes imperative that you construct the plot first and then work on the characters but if you start with the characters and then try to weave in a plot it becomes more of literature than something that is genre based. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Here is an example. Let’s say you are writing a murder mystery and you are inspired by a great character that you want to appear in the film. You cannot create your character first and hope to set up a believable plot because the very essence of the genre demands that you have an unique premise first and then move on with the rest of the elements that make up a screenplay. You cannot say that you’ve written a screenplay for a murder mystery with a fabulous protagonist but no murder !

Now if we were to believe in the first school of thought, since your characters are already ready, it reasonable to assume that your plot should automatically create itself, this being the first part of your dilemma. If this doesn't work you need inspiration to create the plot and this is the second part of your dilemma.

Let’s deal with the first part of the problem. How do well created characters help design the plot? Assume that the central character of your script is a very angry young man. Now all you have to do is to ask yourself a bunch of questions and the plot will write itself.

Why is he angry? Answer will give you the back-story.
What happens to his anger? Does it get the better of him or does he reign in his feelings and becomes a better person? Answer will give you the character arc and once the character arc is set it becomes reasonably easy to fill in the blanks with interesting incidents.
What makes him even more angry, or what tests his self control? Answer will give you the inciting incident and maybe a few plot points.
What character traits are diametrically opposite to the protagonist’s? Answer will give you the character of the antagonist.
That’s it . Its easy, see?

Now if you are having trouble trying to generate a plot using the technique I mentioned then you have no other option but to tackle the problem head on. There are numerous resources on the net that teach you to develop a plot and I have given two links to ebooks that might be of some help to you.

Ebook one.

Ebook two

You can also try these two books;

No plot no problem.

Holly Lisle’s Plot clinic.


I haven’t tried these two books but I believe they are good.

All the best.

Raghu.
 

nmstevens

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Kristy,

Let me tackle your posting in two ways. First of all you say you have great characters but no plot. That’s absolutely fine. Writers can get inspired in many ways and you seem to be inspired by your characters. One day Agatha Christy, one of my favourite authors, was going to her friend’s home along with her friend and when they got there they found that the friend’s brother has just finished reading a murder mystery. He put the book down, thought for a bit and said, “Why didn’t they ask Evans?” Christy got inspired by this and went ahead and wrote a bestseller based on the same title. So you see the title of the book came first, no plot, no characters, no nothing! My point is anything can inspire a book or a screenplay. Something that you read in the newspaper, a bit of conversation you eavesdropped on in the restaurant, something you saw on T.V. absolutely anything. But weaving that inspiration into a screenplay is however, a different story altogether.

There are two schools of thought regarding the creation of a plot in a book or screenplay. One school believes that it is the characters that give rise to the plot and the other school believes that that it is the plot that dictates the sort of characters to be created by the writer. I tend to take the middle path. When you are dealing with genres it becomes imperative that you construct the plot first and then work on the characters but if you start with the characters and then try to weave in a plot it becomes more of literature than something that is genre based. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. Here is an example. Let’s say you are writing a murder mystery and you are inspired by a great character that you want to appear in the film. You cannot create your character first and hope to set up a believable plot because the very essence of the genre demands that you have an unique premise first and then move on with the rest of the elements that make up a screenplay. You cannot say that you’ve written a screenplay for a murder mystery with a fabulous protagonist but no murder !

Now if we were to believe in the first school of thought, since your characters are already ready, it reasonable to assume that your plot should automatically create itself, this being the first part of your dilemma. If this doesn't work you need inspiration to create the plot and this is the second part of your dilemma.

Let’s deal with the first part of the problem. How do well created characters help design the plot? Assume that the central character of your script is a very angry young man. Now all you have to do is to ask yourself a bunch of questions and the plot will write itself.

Why is he angry? Answer will give you the back-story.
What happens to his anger? Does it get the better of him or does he reign in his feelings and becomes a better person? Answer will give you the character arc and once the character arc is set it becomes reasonably easy to fill in the blanks with interesting incidents.
What makes him even more angry, or what tests his self control? Answer will give you the inciting incident and maybe a few plot points.
What character traits are diametrically opposite to the protagonist’s? Answer will give you the character of the antagonist.
That’s it . Its easy, see?

Now if you are having trouble trying to generate a plot using the technique I mentioned then you have no other option but to tackle the problem head on. There are numerous resources on the net that teach you to develop a plot and I have given two links to ebooks that might be of some help to you.

Ebook one.

Ebook two

You can also try these two books;

No plot no problem.

Holly Lisle’s Plot clinic.


I haven’t tried these two books but I believe they are good.

All the best.

Raghu.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree on the question of character and mysteries.

I believe in most great mystery stories, the mystery itself is almost always trivial.

They are almost always about character.

Holmes and Watson.

Nero Wolfe and Archie.

Miss Marple. Hercule Poirot. Sam Spade. Philip Marlowe. Nick and Nora Charles.

When you think back to the books and the movies featuring these detectives -- do you really remember the plots, the mysteries, who killed who, what the twist was, what the reveal was?

I've probably read every Nero Wolfe book ever written and I doubt I could tell you a single plot from a Nero Wolfe story.

No -- what you remember are the characters, the way they interact, the way they relate to the situations, to the villains.

The best mysteries are *always* about the characters. They're never about the mystery.

There's a well-known story about the making of "The Big Sleep" -- which is one of the more confusing detective stories, and there was a point at which Howard Hawks, who was directing the adaptation, called Raymond Chandler, the writer of the original novel, and asked him, "The Chauffeur who ended up murdered in the Sternwood's car -- who killed him?"

"Beats me," Chandler replied.

And really -- what difference does it make who killed the chauffeur? What really matters is you get to see those cool characters in action, being cool, doing the stuff that makes us want to be a part of their lives.

The mystery is there to enable that experience.

Chandler was also the guy who's answer to the problem of writer's block was, "When in doubt, have two guys with guns come in through the door."

NMS
 

icerose

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I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree on the question of character and mysteries.

I believe in most great mystery stories, the mystery itself is almost always trivial.

They are almost always about character.

Holmes and Watson.

Nero Wolfe and Archie.

Miss Marple. Hercule Poirot. Sam Spade. Philip Marlowe. Nick and Nora Charles.

When you think back to the books and the movies featuring these detectives -- do you really remember the plots, the mysteries, who killed who, what the twist was, what the reveal was?

I've probably read every Nero Wolfe book ever written and I doubt I could tell you a single plot from a Nero Wolfe story.

No -- what you remember are the characters, the way they interact, the way they relate to the situations, to the villains.

The best mysteries are *always* about the characters. They're never about the mystery.
<snip>
NMS

I agree with you to a point. Without a good mystery or "plot" to compliment those great characters, the story would be very boring. The characters are certainly the center piece, but without the story and plot it'd get rather boring very fast. It's like having a turkey dinner with just a turkey, no stuffing, no mashed potatoes, no dessert, just the turkey. Sure the turkey would taste good, but not as good without the rest of the stuff.
 

LIVIN

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Beware: Harsh Words Coming

It's impossible to have great characters without a story. Impossible. Yes, impossible. Seriously. What I mean is, the characters written on the page are not great. Maybe in your head they are. But, well, that's worth about a penny. And, without a story, not only are they not great, they do not exist.

I couldn't possibly begin to know whether to suggest to shelve this or not - it's really up to what you want to do. Do you want to transform what's seemingly great in your head onto paper? Well, I guess that's the only question, as you'll be doing that no matter what you're working on.
 

WarrenP

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OK, I'm curious as to what you guys think because I have absolutely no objectivity when it comes to this.

I'm working on a script. I love the characters, but I don't really have a story to tell. I'm in the process of going through the antagonist's history to find what drives him (I know what drives the protag), but I wonder if I'm wasting time. So, I put this script aside and go work on something else. But, I'm invariably drawn back to this script. I love the characters and I've got some cool ideas, but nothing strong enough for 120 pages at this point.

Should I force myself to shelve this puppy and revisit it later? Or do I stay the course and find the story?

What is the genre? Maybe you don't need a strong story, just one that is good enough to show your character's main elements shining through...
 

nmstevens

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It's impossible to have great characters without a story. Impossible. Yes, impossible. Seriously. What I mean is, the characters written on the page are not great. Maybe in your head they are. But, well, that's worth about a penny. And, without a story, not only are they not great, they do not exist.

I couldn't possibly begin to know whether to suggest to shelve this or not - it's really up to what you want to do. Do you want to transform what's seemingly great in your head onto paper? Well, I guess that's the only question, as you'll be doing that no matter what you're working on.


This, to me, is exactly the point. You have to distinguish between a great "character" in the sense of a fictional creation, and a "great person" -- in the sense of the "character" of a real person that one might know in real life.

It may seem to belabor the obvious to say that characters in stories aren't the same as characters in real life, but sometimes people don't really understand the way in which they are different -- and that's at the heart of why there really is no difference between "plot" and "character."

The two simply can't exist in isolation.

In the real world, competing gangs in a street war are just that -- things are what the are in physical reality.

In stories, street gangs and mothers and fathers and wars and cheating spouses and innocent children and avenging ghosts and guilty memories and doomsday devices and exploding death stars and really hot cars full of cool spy weapons -- they're all *dramatic devices.*

They all exist to unfold the choices that confront characters in conflict.

The difference between the choices, the characters, the conflicts in Die Hard or Casino Royale or Death of a Salesman or Vera Drake -- those are strictly a matter of the conventions of form.

The choice of the conflict, the choice of the issues at stake, the *form* in which the conflict is explored, whether in the setting of an overtly fantasy world or a more putatively realistic (although when you really look closely, not an actually realistic) world.

Whether the expression of the conflict is embodied directly in the behaviors of the characters directly or externalized in the forms of actions, props, and symbols surrounding them -- it's still the same.

Character in conflict. Characters in opposition. Opposition embodies theme.

There's nothing wrong, in principle, with coming up with characters when you don't have a story to put them in, any more than there's anything wrong with coming up with scenes or lines of dialogue, or images without having a story to put them in.

But you can't fall into this trap of "character-driven" vs. "plot-driven" -- not from either direction.

The nature of the conflict that drives and defines your character defines your plot. The working out of that defining conflict *is* your story. If there isn't one, then there is no plot. There is no story.

And in the same way, the idea that you can simply have a "plot" without understanding that a plot is something that is, at its heart, driven and defined by the character that is at the heart of it, inevitably leads to plots that are arbitrary and unfocused, and repetitive -- because, again, if you do not understand what it is that drives and defines your character, you do not have the proper tools for constructing a plot -- because, in the end, the plot really isn't about those missing nuclear bombs, or about Blofeld stealing space capsules and hiding them inside a dormant volcano in Japan -- it's really about James Bond -- about who he is, about the kind of man he is, and about the decisions he makes. All the rest of it is a fantasy *externalization* that enables him to face the challenges and do the things that he does.

NMS
 

Raghu

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NMS,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree on the question of character and mysteries
I believe in most great mystery stories, the mystery itself is almost always trivial.

They are almost always about character.

Holmes and Watson.

Nero Wolfe and Archie.

Miss Marple. Hercule Poirot. Sam Spade. Philip Marlowe. Nick and Nora Charles.

When you think back to the books and the movies featuring these detectives -- do you really remember the plots, the mysteries, who killed who, what the twist was, what the reveal was? NMS

That’s unacceptable. The very act of picking up an Agatha Christie novel is based on the strong assumption that either Miss.Marple or Poirot will encounter an unsolvable murder mystery, which baffles everyone and in the end go on to find an ingenious solution. How well do you think you will enjoy a Poirot novel which has a plot like water? So you see although characterization is important, it is the plot, the premise, the twists and turns that keep the reader hooked and compel him to keep turning the pages till the end.

Now I know what you are going to say to this NMS – “ The plot still is trivial, it is the way is which the cool characters react to the circumstances and the conflict that will keep me engrossed”. Unacceptable again. In the first murder mystery involving Marple or Poirot we get a complete character sketch of the both of them INCLUDING the way in which each will react to different situations and these traits do not change all throughout the books. So what makes you read every adventure of theirs with enthusiasm? The plot naturally!

Take James Bond for that matter. He is spy, a strong tough guy who drinks a lot, seduces women at the drop of a hat and is licensed to kill. Now this character does not change anytime. There isn’t even a character arc. But we still enjoy Bond movies don’t we? Not for who he is but for what he does and that is plotting for you.

I agree with you to a point. Without a good mystery or "plot" to compliment those great characters, the story would be very boring. The characters are certainly the centre piece, but without the story and plot it'd get rather boring very fast. It's like having a turkey dinner with just a turkey, no stuffing, no mashed potatoes, no dessert, just the turkey. Sure the turkey would taste good, but not as good without the rest of the stuff.

It's impossible to have great characters without a story. Impossible. Yes, impossible. Seriously. What I mean is, the characters written on the page are not great. Maybe in your head they are. But, well, that's worth about a penny. And, without a story, not only are they not great, they do not exist.
I couldn't possibly begin to know whether to suggest to shelve this or not - it's really up to what you want to do. Do you want to transform what's seemingly great in your head onto paper? Well, I guess that's the only question, as you'll be doing that no matter what you're working on.

With character-driven stories, the problem is internal and is usually caused by a weakness in the main character that has to be overcome before he can resolve the problem that makes up the story. The pivotal point is when the character understands this and takes the first steps to right his weakness.

A plot-driven story begins with a problem that is external – in a thriller, this might be a terrorist attack, in a mystery it might be an unexpected murder. The characterisation influences the plot by the reaction of the main character to the problem. At the pivotal point, the character finds the tools, internally or externally, to solve the situation.

So it goes without saying that when one is working on a genre based script, one is compelled to give more importance to the plot than to the characters and vice-versa.

Look at what a reputed screenwriter has to say about this issue.

Most writers have a preference for one style of writing over another. Some writers are more adept at developing complex, interesting, and quirky characters. Others excel at page-turning action. The lucky ones are writers who are good at creating both the Character Emotional Development plotline and the Dramatic Action plotline. Become aware of your strength and learn to address your weakness, and you, too, can become one of the lucky ones.

Broadly speaking, writers who prefer writing plot-driven stories focus on logical thinking, rational analysis, and accuracy. Plot-driven writers tend to rely more on the left side of their brain. These writers approach writing as a linear function and see the story in its parts. Plot-driven writers like structure. They usually pre-plot or create an outline before writing. Plot-driven writers have little trouble expressing themselves in words.

On the other hand, writers who write character-driven stories tend to focus on aesthetics and feelings, creativity and imagination. These writers access the right side of their brains and enjoy playing with the beauty of language. They are more intuitive, and like to work things out on the page. Character-driven writers are holistic and subjective. They can synthesize new information, but are somewhat (or more) disorganized and random. They see the story as the whole. Right brain writers may know what they mean, but often have trouble finding the right words.

But you can't fall into this trap of "character-driven" vs. "plot-driven" -- not from either direction.

Agreed. Amen!

Raghu.
 

nmstevens

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NMS,



That’s unacceptable. The very act of picking up an Agatha Christie novel is based on the strong assumption that either Miss.Marple or Poirot will encounter an unsolvable murder mystery, which baffles everyone and in the end go on to find an ingenious solution. How well do you think you will enjoy a Poirot novel which has a plot like water? So you see although characterization is important, it is the plot, the premise, the twists and turns that keep the reader hooked and compel him to keep turning the pages till the end.

Now I know what you are going to say to this NMS – “ The plot still is trivial, it is the way is which the cool characters react to the circumstances and the conflict that will keep me engrossed”. Unacceptable again. In the first murder mystery involving Marple or Poirot we get a complete character sketch of the both of them INCLUDING the way in which each will react to different situations and these traits do not change all throughout the books. So what makes you read every adventure of theirs with enthusiasm? The plot naturally!

Take James Bond for that matter. He is spy, a strong tough guy who drinks a lot, seduces women at the drop of a hat and is licensed to kill. Now this character does not change anytime. There isn’t even a character arc. But we still enjoy Bond movies don’t we? Not for who he is but for what he does and that is plotting for you.





With character-driven stories, the problem is internal and is usually caused by a weakness in the main character that has to be overcome before he can resolve the problem that makes up the story. The pivotal point is when the character understands this and takes the first steps to right his weakness.

A plot-driven story begins with a problem that is external – in a thriller, this might be a terrorist attack, in a mystery it might be an unexpected murder. The characterisation influences the plot by the reaction of the main character to the problem. At the pivotal point, the character finds the tools, internally or externally, to solve the situation.

So it goes without saying that when one is working on a genre based script, one is compelled to give more importance to the plot than to the characters and vice-versa.

Look at what a reputed screenwriter has to say about this issue.

Most writers have a preference for one style of writing over another. Some writers are more adept at developing complex, interesting, and quirky characters. Others excel at page-turning action. The lucky ones are writers who are good at creating both the Character Emotional Development plotline and the Dramatic Action plotline. Become aware of your strength and learn to address your weakness, and you, too, can become one of the lucky ones.

Broadly speaking, writers who prefer writing plot-driven stories focus on logical thinking, rational analysis, and accuracy. Plot-driven writers tend to rely more on the left side of their brain. These writers approach writing as a linear function and see the story in its parts. Plot-driven writers like structure. They usually pre-plot or create an outline before writing. Plot-driven writers have little trouble expressing themselves in words.

On the other hand, writers who write character-driven stories tend to focus on aesthetics and feelings, creativity and imagination. These writers access the right side of their brains and enjoy playing with the beauty of language. They are more intuitive, and like to work things out on the page. Character-driven writers are holistic and subjective. They can synthesize new information, but are somewhat (or more) disorganized and random. They see the story as the whole. Right brain writers may know what they mean, but often have trouble finding the right words.



Agreed. Amen!

Raghu.

Then I'd have to pose the question to you -- granted that the relationship between Holmes and Watson came full-born and completely developed from the head of ACD -- it was, to all intents and purposes the same in the first Holmes and Watson story as it was in the seventh or the tenth.

Certainly, there were developments -- Moriarty was introduced, for instance -- but by and large, the characters and the world of Holmes and Watson were set right at the beginning.

Does that mean that the reason we come back to Sherlock Holmes was because we wanted to puzzle out the mysteries?

What mysteries exactly were they? I suppose I've read every Sherlock Holmes story at least a couple times, and with only a few exceptions, I doubt that I could even tell you what the "mysteries" even were.

I know that the speckled band turned out to be a snake. Maybe a few others.

With Agatha Christie, I remember that it turns out that everybody did it in Mystery on the Orient Express, and that somebody we thought was dead turned out to be the killer in Ten Little Indians.

Beyond that, I couldn't begin to tell you who did what and when and why and how.

No. The structure of the mystery, that is the plot, is simply an enabling device -- it enables the protagonist to confront the fundamental themes that underly these sorts of stories -- in which the heroes embody the forces of law/reason/order -- and, as a rule, the murder or murders embody the forces of chaos, crime, and disorder -- and those forces engage one another over the course of the story.

It is that *struggle* that we want to see played out over and over again. The mystery, as such -- the puzzle, is secondary.

The problem that I have with the dichotomy that you, and others raise above, between "character-driven" and "plot-driven" is that it ignores the larger and more fundamental over-arching story structure.

And that is that Story is "theme-driven" -- and that when you are dealing with entities in a story in thematic terms, there is no difference between a person and an incident.

That is, in thematic terms, there is no difference between the struggles that go on inside somebody's head -- which must, in any case (in drama) be externalized and expressed through action, and literal external action, which must, in any case, be chosen to embody the thematic journey of the characters.

It's important to understand this distinction.

Take a movie like "In Search of Bobby Fischer" -- it's based on a true story.

Now, in the true story, there's obviously a real little kid chess prodigy. He has a real father, a real mother. He was taught by a real Chess Master who had taught Bobby Fischer, who was also real. The kid did go on to win this chess tournament.

Now, in the movie, he also played chess with this guy in the park -- I have no idea whether there was such a character in real life.

But what those people were or were not like in real life is almost tangential to what they were in the movie.

That is because in order to make the movie, those real people have to undergo a transformation. They have to stop being people in the traditional sense and become iconic -- they become representations of ideas -- thematic entities.

And those thematic entities are at war -- at war over the soul of this boy -- and that struggle for his soul forms the basis of the story.

And once again, you have the *internal struggle* externalized in the form of people -- the people representing points of view -- the mother and the chess guy from the park on one side -- the father and the chess master on the other side.

But again, it's absurd to talk about the "plot" of this story as it were a thing that was separate from these characters. The character exist to unfold the development of the protagonist's character.

And the protagonist's character is not something that exists in isolation. It exists in tension -- an internal tension that plays out, by extension though characters whose only reason for existing *in the story* is to externalize that internal struggle.

I don't know from right brain or left brain writing -- so far as I know, language and speech is virtually completely specialized on the left side of the brain, so that all sounds like a lot of metaphorical fluff.

Whether one has an intricately plotted or a thinly plotted story sort of depends on the story you want to tell and on your own aesthetic preferences. Whether you have a story that is very grounded in reality or highly fantastical, likewise depends on what story you want to tell and your own preferences.

But whichever kind of story you want to tell, in the end, you are still going to come down, at the most basic level, to characters, situations, images, events -- that embody ideas that ultimately converge on a single thematic resolution -- the thing that your story is about.

And it is neither plot, nor character but that -- theme, that is really driving your story.

NMS
 

icerose

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And we're probably all arguing about the exact same thing just looking at it through our own unique perspectives and terms. What I call character development, others are going to call theme or plot.
 

Raghu

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NMS,

What do you see when you look at a human being? A pretty nose, lovely legs, beautiful eyes etc. Look deeper into a human body and you will discover that it is simply made up of tissues. Even deeper it is molecules and deeper still it is atoms.

You can’t tell us you are madly in love with a bunch of atoms, nor can you say that you and another bunch if tissues are going to play golf this weekend. Both are ludicrous statements.

So too with a screenplay. From an aerial point of view all the elements are clearly visible, the plot, the inciting incident, the large fair bosom, the plot points, the sexy thighs, the characters etc. But the instant you change your perspective and start analysing the essence, everything changes. Like the way the laws of Newtonian physics break down at the subatomic realm.

I think it is very beautiful, maybe even poetic to say that there is no difference whatsoever between a character and a plot, and that both are one and the same. But that deals with the essence of the screenplay.

How can argue about the merits and demerits of the different elements that make up a screenplay from a perspective wherein these elements have become invisible, lost their identities and coalesced to form a single beautiful organism or entity called the screenplay?

Point is, from the perspective where the elements are visible and identifiable, having an argument about their virtues is valid. At this level you are justified in bolstering your theory that character is everything and I am justified in reiterating my stand that plot is the soul of a screenplay. Doesn’t matter who is right or wrong. However once you go to the essence everything changes, as I described earlier, and one is not authorised to have a squabble about it.

Hope I’ve made my point clear.

One final question. Where the heck is the OP?

Raghu.
 

Joe Calabrese

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Everyone's right and everyone's wrong.

Great characters are the total sum of their persona and the actions they take. Dialog and action.

A great plot with terrible characters is just as bad as a great character with terrible plot.

Good character development make the reader feel vested and interested in what the character does and the plot must be engaging and thought provoking other wise these great characters are wasted.

It's all about balance.