Short Fiction as Apprenticeship to Novels

I think they're two different things, written in two different ways, so I don't think that one is more of a training ground for another. A short story is usually a snapshot, a quick glimpse into whatever the story is about. There usually isn't much in the way of character development, or description just for the sake of description. The pacing is completely different, there aren't usually a lot of sub-plots, etc.

I think you learn short stories by writing short stories and novels by writing novels. Some people are better at one than the other, some people can do both.

There can be benefits, but it really depends on the person. I learned a lot about the individual parts of a story-- esp. characterization and plot. I also learned to be very careful with my wordchoices, which I think makes my novel stronger because I'm very direct in what I say.

But writing shorts is very different than writing novels-- I found, to my surprise, that while I was working on my novel, I couldn't work on shorts at all. It was a completely different mindset-- particularly as far as length of plot. When I'm working on shorts, I can go back and forth between stories, shift gears, etc without problem. But I can't do that with the novel.

Each will be different. If you think that writing shorts will work for you, give it a shot. It worked for me. And, since my shorts all feature my novel's MC, I also developed a bit a of a fan following.

Start as you mean to continue

scheherazade said:

Do you believe that writing short fiction is a necessary and/or useful step that writers should consider before (or while) working on a novel? Has writing short stories changed the way you approach novel-writing or given you new skills? Does writing short fiction set up any "bad habits" or challenges when it comes time to shift to novels?

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Nope, I don't think learning to structure one helps you to structure the other. Rather like being a GI surgeon does not mean you have the knowledge necessary to do brain or transplant surgery. A few things transcend because it's something of the same, but so much of the details are different that it's not interchangeable.

The things which I can see transcend are: good word choice (short stories demand it--you can be "sloppier" in novels and get away with it), clear drawing of characters, conflicts and/or settings. Basic grammar, sentence construction, etc. skills.

The things I see as being totally different is character introductions, world/setting establishment, introduction of new conflicts, intertwining/simplifying conflict and story arcs--and that's just off the top of my head.

A friend of mine once described the difference between short fiction and novels as the difference between a mouse and an elephant. There's many internal differences that allow them to exist at their size that can be taken for granted. It's the same way in fiction: Novels, by the nature of their length, demand a complexity that is impossible in a shorter work. A shorter work has to be more direct to the point of the story and have very focused verbage.

Personally, I believe you have to write what it is you want to write and gain the practice and the skills as you do it. One is not a substitute for the other. As the old adage says, "Start as you mean to continue." If you want to write one, then focus on the one. If you want to write both, then write both. At some point you'll probably find where your talent lies and that might make the decision easier for you.

Hope that answered the question. I think I went off on a tangent somewhere along the line. Sorry.

scheherazade said:

Short Fiction as Apprenticeship to Novels

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The thing that bothers me about this view is that it treats short stories as a stepping-stone and has an implicit disrespect of it as an art form.

When it comes down to it: any writing you do is going to help you become a better writer. Short stories are touted as a good stepping-stone because you get to feel what it's like to complete something, and it's a smaller scale so it's easier to edit.

If you want to become a novel writer, there's no substitute for writing actual novels. Everything else is just improving your general craft.

dempsey said:

The thing that bothers me about this view is that it treats short stories as a stepping-stone and has an implicit disrespect of it as an art form.

When it comes down to it: any writing you do is going to help you become a better writer. Short stories are touted as a good stepping-stone because you get to feel what it's like to complete something, and it's a smaller scale so it's easier to edit.

If you want to become a novel writer, there's no substitute for writing actual novels. Everything else is just improving your general craft.

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I almost agree with this. I think looking at short-story writing as a stepping stone to a novel or as something that is easier than writing a novel does not give short story writing enough credit.

Yes, it will probably take less time to write a short-story than it will take to write a novel. Because of this, writing a short stories will help to develop the skills needed to write longer works.

However, there are parts of short-story writing that are more difficult than novel writing. If I am writing a short-story I cannot go into 1,000 words of backstory. Any background information given has to be short and succinct. Writing short-stories keeps you focused on the story and on word choice. There are very few extra words in a short-story. A writer cannot afford to use any extra words in thier writing.

Writing a great short-story in my opinion is just as hard as writing a great novel.

The Scip said:

Writing a great short-story in my opinion is just as hard as writing a great novel.

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Harder.

I agree. The short story is a stepping stone to the novel. In a short story you learn how to tightened up your words, to make your story a better tale but the lessons you learn writing short fiction helps you write the long fiction as well. The same steps you use in a short story help tell the longer one too. and the more you write the better you become. Just my opinion

I learned a lot about my writing while focusing on short stories, and I think I improved my skills overall. However, as I now attempt to dig into a novel, I find many of my short story techniques have no carryover to writing a novel (especially those concerning plotting)(accursed plotting!). I just can't write them the same way. So now I flounder about trying to figure out what I need to do to complete an actual novel.

Very, very frustrating.

That being said, if you have some short stories in you, want to practice some core writing skills, the go for it. But don't write short stories just because they are some nebulous step. They are not. They are a writing form of their own. A very difficult one. Just like novels. Heh.




-Michelle

Grrarrgh said:

I think they're two different things, written in two different ways, so I don't think that one is more of a training ground for another. A short story is usually a snapshot, a quick glimpse into whatever the story is about. There usually isn't much in the way of character development, or description just for the sake of description. The pacing is completely different, there aren't usually a lot of sub-plots, etc.

I think you learn short stories by writing short stories and novels by writing novels. Some people are better at one than the other, some people can do both.

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I agree completely.

It's like saying you should learn to ride a bike as practice for driving a car. It's true that many writers start with short stories and many motorists once used to cycle, but it's not essential to master one before attempting the other.

Novels and shorts are two entirely different kettles of fish.

I write both and when I was just starting out as a writer, I had the notion that in order to get my foot in the door with book publishers, I needed to have a certain number of shorts published. I don't know where I got that idea from, but I did learn how to craft short stories. In that process, I learned first hand just how different the two forms are. I've become a better writer because of that.

scheherazade said:

Do you believe that writing short fiction is a necessary and/or useful step that writers should consider before (or while) working on a novel? Has writing short stories changed the way you approach novel-writing or given you new skills? Does writing short fiction set up any "bad habits" or challenges when it comes time to shift to novels?

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I don't think it's necessary; it might help some people, but then again it might not. I wrote shorter stories when I was little (of course no novel writing at age twelve or earlier!), but even back then I loved writing series stories and longer short stories in book form. I think all my life in some way or another I've been a novel/series writer at heart and a short story/novella writer only secondarily. Shorter stories are much harder for me, in truth. It's the opposite for some people; for them, writing short works in preparation for writing a novel might be helpful, but for me they're two different things with different benefits and challenges.

Because of that, the way I write a novel or a short story hasn't changed the way I write the other because it's a different process.

The only challenge I can see in shifting from short stories to novels is in the length of time and effort involved. A person used to short stories had better not expect writing a novel to be as easy as stringing together a bunch of short stories, for example (the same way that a novel writer shouldn't expect writing a short story to be any easier than a novel--it always depends). I do see that a lot of people who start out trying to write novels just don't have enough material yet and end up struggling along a few chapters through, so one has to make sure they're truly ready before starting. Even I don't just start out on a novel/serial after I come up with the idea; I have to mull it over for months, at least! Short-story writers have to keep this in mind--they'll be in it for the long haul. There will be no fast ways in or out.

But if somebody really has the material and the drive to shift from short stories to novels, there should be no real problem. Challenges, yes, but not a problem.

I think the key is in realizing that a novel is not a very long short story, and that a short story is not a very short novel. They're apples and oranges, not big apples and small apples. Writing one can help you write the other, but not necessarily, and something that you can say about one won't always apply to the other.

I really disagree with the emphasis on short stories and novels being completely different. They're not. They're both stories and they're both writing. They are far more similar than they are different.

Any kind of writing, no matter what length, will go a long way to helping you write a novel. Practice really helps.

I've written a lot of short stories in my time, and still write them, but for the purpose of I like writing short stories and part of that is a more instant gratification of finishing something. And I can say that I wouldn't be as good at writing novels not having done this.

But there are still differences and one trap some short story writers fall into is just thinking of a novel as a more lengthy short story. There are fundemental differences to how the two are plotted and developed. It's just not a matter of padding your novel with more description or something.

A more apt metaphor would be the sprinter and the marathon runner. It's all about pacing.

I agree that some of the things learnt in short storu writing will be useful in novel writing (and that the road sense learnt from cycling could help with driving) but you could also learn all aspects of novel writing without ever writing a short story. As usual, the best way of doing things is the way that works best for the individual.

I write short stories and am trying to write novels. Personally I feel my strength lies in my short stories. I write them if my longing to feel proud of a completed work is so strong that I find I'm rushing to finish my MS too quickly, in which case I take some time to write something shorter. Which is basically an exercise in impatience and distraction I suppose, and is no doubt why I have so many incomplete manuscripts. But are they different rungs on the same ladder? No, I don't think so.

While you can definitely hone your sentence craft by working on short stories to start, I believe they are two completely different animals.

When I began to write seriously, I started with short stories, and fell in love with them.

When I tried to write a novel, it fell flat. Turns out, I can't even wrap my mind around it without difficulty.

Is that a product of having began with short stories? Could be; it seems to happen to other people too. But I also know that when I tried to write novels before I was serious, I'd always hit a roadblock. Short stories were the first things I actually finished.

Now was that because I'd finally learned the rules of grammar and good writing? Could be.

But, I'd just beware of starting with shorts as precursors to a novel. They are completely different creatures, and while you can learn things from practicing one that will benefit the other, you could just start with the format you want to write and learn the same things along the way.

I believe that you can only strengthen your writing by taking the time to write short stories. By reviewing a short story that you've written, you can examine your overall pacing and conflict resolution. A short is a great way to see if you have the tools you need to pull it all together.
Will the ability to write a beautiful short story translate into novel work? Not necessarily. There are additional elements to novel writing that simply are not present in shorter works. Longevity is a key factor. In writing a novel, you must have the ability to maintain interest and suspense for longer durations. The plot threads can become a complicated jumble compared to finely woven tapestries you've become accustomed to creating with your shorter works.

In the end, both venues are related and both require certain polished skills to pull off. I would venture to say, though, that short story writing will not harm your ability to create compelling novels. I would definitely say that any writing that is honing and perfecting your skill is good writing that should be taken to task at every opportunity.

In a lot of the literature and commentary online, the "short stories as apprenticeship" theme seems to show up not in reference to learning to write, but in getting published. I see this again and again in every page I've seen on writing query letters for publishers and agents: sell short stories so you can list all your previous writing credits.

It's the old employment Catch-22. No one will hire you without experience, but you can't get experience unless someone hires you. Whenever I read online that you need to get your short fiction published first in order for book publishers to notice you, the underlying implication seems to be that getting short fiction published is somehow easier than getting someone to look at your novel.

While I'm sure that may be true, I find it surprising seeing as how the novel has almost completely replaced the short story as the format-of-choice for most readers. I enjoy the occasional short story myself (especially from someone like Gaiman or Bradbury) but as a librarian I find that I have to practically twist peoples' arms to get them to read short fiction.

However, you can't knock what works, and you can't change the rules of the game until your evil plans for world domination come to fruition. A buddy of mine online has just sold three short stories in the last couple months, and it's going to look great when she lists all those on her query letter for the novel she's written.

That's a good distinction Tycho, and I think a lot of that received wisdom about the short comes from an earlier time when short fiction was read widely, and it absolutely was a way to build a career. Just looking at SF publishing furnishes many examples of writers who broke in in the magazines, and parlayed their popularity into novels. Those were different times, but I'd imagine there's some residual gloss attached to having some high profile sales -- as someone said, any publication (other than, say, vanity press) is better than nothing.

One thing I'd like to add about why short stories still are a useful 'apprenticeship' (not that I'm implying that's all they are, I agree the short form deserves more respect than it's given) is that they get a writer involved in the process of publication earlier, and provide a great deal more feedback. Working on a novel, in isolation, for months or years of rejection, is lonely and daunting. Short fiction gets you dealing with editors and publications with more frequency, and when your fiction is published, then all of a sudden you have readers. Perhaps not fans, but you can get feedback enough to help nurture the writing ego.

In my own experience, I've loved getting good reviews for my short fiction, getting appreciative emails from people I've never heard of, and even signing autographs. I'm in contact with editors, I've been offered gigs as a reviewer and non-fiction writer and an open invitation for a collection . . . in short writing short stories gets you 'out there' in a way laboring on a first novel can't, and that can be all the difference between feeling good about your writing and feeling frustrated, isolated, and hopeless.

Use the short story to get a feel for a character for a novel. Would this MC work in a novel? Would I want to spend time in their world? Would others?

A short can help you find out.

Cross-posting from the Learn Writing thread,

An editor acquaintance of mine said the following,

You have to keep in mind that you're competing against thousands of other writers who are trying to sell their novels -- and many of those other writers have pro short-fiction credits.

Occasionally, someone breaks into novel publishing without taking the short-fiction-market stepping-stone path.

Bear in mind that this editor and I disagree substantially on many levels, not the least of which is the caliber (ie professional level) of my writing in the short fiction venue, but I do listen to most of what he has to say and thought his opinion would be worth taking a look at for this thread as well.

This was posted, along with some other comments that I edited out, in response to a query letter I posted on another forum.

The editor works for a major publishing house, just as a BTW.

This is more reflective of my reading habits than anything, but I'm more than a little trepidatious at the thought that yes, a lot of novel writers seem to get their foot in the door by way of the short story. I've long aspired to write novels, but not short stories. Certainly I see the value of them as both a stepping-stone and a format of unique importance, but the ideas that I tend to come up with for fiction are so ambitious, so labyrinthine, that the short story actually feels more challenging. How could I pack everything I want to do into such a localized crawlspace?

Something tells me I don't read enough short stories. I don't "get" them yet. And here's the rub: the localized short-story narratology you pick up when you're young and at school applies so poorly to the composition of novels.

In my limited experience, the principles don't scale - in either direction.

The Scip said:

I almost agree with this. I think looking at short-story writing as a stepping stone to a novel or as something that is easier than writing a novel does not give short story writing enough credit.

Yes, it will probably take less time to write a short-story than it will take to write a novel. Because of this, writing a short stories will help to develop the skills needed to write longer works.

However, there are parts of short-story writing that are more difficult than novel writing. If I am writing a short-story I cannot go into 1,000 words of backstory. Any background information given has to be short and succinct. Writing short-stories keeps you focused on the story and on word choice. There are very few extra words in a short-story. A writer cannot afford to use any extra words in thier writing.

Writing a great short-story in my opinion is just as hard as writing a great novel.

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Bolding mine. I apply the same to my novels. I also like the chapters in my novels to have a beginning, middle and end. Kinda like 50 short stories within a novel.

And, I don't consider it necessary to have short story publishing credits to get a novel published. Useful perhaps, but not necessary.

Do whatever feels comfortable to you. Write short stories if that's what you want to do. But, don't think you must get some short stories published before querying (or even writing) your novel. It's like saying you have a better chance of getting published if you were a journalist and therefore go and become one just to get a novel published.

JJ