Devil's advocate

Nateskate · Apr 24, 2005

I have one friend who hasn't read my story. But I think he's intent on saving me from overly optomistic expectations. Do you have any devil's advocates in your life, who want to save you from embarrassing yourself or getting your hopes up?

"What if your book doesn't sell?"

Well frankly, if the world thinks my story absolutely sucks, I'll survive. I realize that the best we can do is give it our best, and take steps as they come. If it needs a book doctor, we either go that route, or back to the drawing board. If it's a great story, and we just don't have the writing chops, there's always paying a ghost writer to take your concept, or co-write with someone who has great prose.

He talked about self-publishing, and I frankly admited, "I stink at hawking things. If my goal is to be read, then I'd rather just find a way to build my own web-site and post the story free, and create links to places people would see the story, in hopes of some people enjoying it."

It's one thing to give someone positive advice to help them. That's what most people here are doing. And even if I happened to be a happily self-deluded writer, thinking my garbage smelled like perfume, it's okay for a concerned person to somewhat bring me back to reality. However, it's another to be a devil's advocate who feels compelled to constantly tell you every worst case scenario to save you from getting your hopes up. He's a great guy, and I know he means well; but I'm hoping for the best and pushing on.

How about you? Any flies in the ointment?

azbikergirl · Apr 24, 2005

My mom and my best friend are like that with pretty much everything with their negative, shoot-it-down-before-it-has-a-chance reactions. However, my mom has so much belief in me as a writer, that she's gone off the deep end with delusions that I'll be the next JK Rowling. I find myself trying to bring her back down to earth!

CalicoBean · Apr 24, 2005

Nateskate said:
He talked about self-publishing, and I frankly admited, "I stink at hawking things. If my goal is to be read, then I'd rather just find a way to build my own web-site and post the story free, and create links to places people would see the story, in hopes of some people enjoying it."

Good response Nate.

My experience is more like azbikergirl's. I have to try to convince the loved ones in my life how hard it is to publish fiction, much less make money at it. Last summer one of my nieces (9 yrs old) asked me what the book is about. I gave her a brief summary. Her response? "Wow, we're gonna be famous!" I was struck by the "we."

But seriously, it makes me squirm when family members assume I will be published and make lots of money.

pepperlandgirl · Apr 24, 2005

I have a professor who makes it a point to tell me all the reasons why I'll fail at my hopes and dreams, from grad school to writing to teaching to publishing to...well...fill in the blank.

He's the same professor who tried to arrange a paid reading for me at the school when he heard Liquid Silver was publishing my first book, bought the first copy of my self-published book, and pulled what strings he could to get me considered at another grad school.

I can't sort that man out.

black winged fighter · Apr 24, 2005

Though I believe in my writing, sometimes I'm my own worst-case-scenario-producer. *shrugs* It comes with the job, I guess.

So far, I've been luckly in that the people who know I write support me. But, like CalicoBean, sometimes my friends' enthusiasm scares me. One of my sweetest friends read a piece of my work and instantly claimed that I would be published without a doubt.

Bear in mind, the work was an unfinished first draft that I had taken a break from, because I believed that my prose and story needed drastic work. She only got to read it because I would not let my current WIP near anyone, and she'd been clamoring for something to read. How can I know she wasn't just trying to spare my feelings? I just know, in a way I can't explain.

*sighs* Sometimes overly optimistic people are as dispiriting as automatic nay-sayers.

Note On · Apr 24, 2005

My experience is that publication shuts up 95% of these people.

4% more won't shut up until you quit your day job.

The last 1% are reviewers.

Liam Jackson · Apr 24, 2005

Note On said:
My experience is that publication shuts up 95% of these people.

4% more won't shut up until you quit your day job.

The last 1% are reviewers.

Note, that's priceless.

I've been at both ends of the spectrum. Early on it was, "It's too difficult for a no-name to get into the business" or "Leave novel writing to the serious writers". (Whatever the hell that was supposed to mean.)

Now, it's "Why are you still working? Jeeze, quit the stinkin' day job and take one of those year-long cruises."

reph · Apr 24, 2005

I don't need a devil's advocate. I can call up memories of my mother any time. The old witch had a remarkable talent for imagining downsides. Whatever I did or planned to do inspired her to generate arguments against it: I'd hurt myself, it'd cost too much, I didn't know how, it'd make a mess, they'd laugh at me, I'd be ostracized. I now recognize that all those discouraging words came from the negativity of her depression.

Sarita · Apr 25, 2005

reph said:
I don't need a devil's advocate. I can call up memories of my mother any time. The old witch had a remarkable talent for imagining downsides. Whatever I did or planned to do inspired her to generate arguments against it: I'd hurt myself, it'd cost too much, I didn't know how, it'd make a mess, they'd laugh at me, I'd be ostracized. I now recognize that all those discouraging words came from the negativity of her depression.

Yes, it's my mother too. "Why would you want to quit your job to go back to school? You want to dig up bones? Who do you think you are, Indiana Jones? Your life wont be like that, you know! What on earth could you be writing?" My father, on the other hand, saved the first book I wrote (when I was 6 yrs old), and keeps it out on his desk as a reminder for me; he recently asked me to collaborate with him on a Viet Nam Memoir, researches little tidbits about Peru that I can't find elsewhere. It's like having my own lobbyist.

KTC · Apr 25, 2005

pepperlandgirl said:
He's the same professor who tried to arrange a paid reading for me at the school when he heard Liquid Silver was publishing my first book, bought the first copy of my self-published book, and pulled what strings he could to get me considered at another grad school.

I can't sort that man out.

Maybe he's a man who knows you have talent and who knows that some people with talent don't always get their due. Maybe he knows that you have what it takes but that that's not all you need. It sounds like he is someone who believes fully in your talents and wants you to make it but also wants to keep reminding you of the impossible odds. It sounds like he's a man you are lucky to have on your side!

Spookster · Apr 25, 2005

My in-laws are negative about everything I mention. So, I've learned to just shut up. Everything from school to writing to raising my children, I've been told I couldn't do it or I'm doing it wrong. It's just the way they are, and I ignore the negative vibes now. I'd rather try and fail than not try and never know what could have been.

maestrowork · Apr 25, 2005

There are a few. My mom, of course, but she's just worried that I'd die homeless. My dad, on the other hand, asked his author friend about how to go about it. They're both supportive, but my mom is just more cautious. There are a few friends who are negativer about anything they don't quite understand, and some who say things like "don't quit your day job." I usually don't listen. I'm a big silly optimist.

Nateskate · Apr 25, 2005

azbikergirl said:
My mom and my best friend are like that with pretty much everything with their negative, shoot-it-down-before-it-has-a-chance reactions. However, my mom has so much belief in me as a writer, that she's gone off the deep end with delusions that I'll be the next JK Rowling. I find myself trying to bring her back down to earth!

I watched that movie Sideways, where one character is a writer whose stories never get bought. I can picture the people in my life beginning to doubt me. "How's the story coming?" "Oh, you are still---chuckles behind my back---working on it!"

I think their minds are convinced that if I were legit, this would have already been in Barnes and Nobles. Yet, I haven't even submitted it. They picture a mad scientist in the basement. Or Russel Crow, in a Beautiful Mind, Nate in an abandoned building, chapters hanging by strings or taped to the walls, and invisible meetings with publishers.

Not really. Some people really believe in me, and they are pretty steadfast, which encourages me. But frankly, I thought I'd be published by now, and I'm feeling a little OCD with my re-writes. But the sobering thing to me is that I've seen writers who suck that are published. It's the great writers that still push me, because when I look at their work, I realize how far I have to go.

Nateskate · Apr 25, 2005

pepperlandgirl said:
I have a professor who makes it a point to tell me all the reasons why I'll fail at my hopes and dreams, from grad school to writing to teaching to publishing to...well...fill in the blank.

He's the same professor who tried to arrange a paid reading for me at the school when he heard Liquid Silver was publishing my first book, bought the first copy of my self-published book, and pulled what strings he could to get me considered at another grad school.

I can't sort that man out.

People are fickle. The same ones who pull you back will want to ride your wave when you succeed. "I taught him everything he knows...now he has to honor before the college president..." Nah, maybe he's better than that. But anyone who tells you "you'll never make it," sounds jaded. Maybe they just doubt themselves, because they tried and failed.

Nateskate · Apr 25, 2005

LiamJackson said:
Note, that's priceless.

I've been at both ends of the spectrum. Early on it was, "It's too difficult for a no-name to get into the business" or "Leave novel writing to the serious writers". (Whatever the hell that was supposed to mean.)

Now, it's "Why are you still working? Jeeze, quit the stinkin' day job and take one of those year-long cruises."

Frankly, I'm already working on my Liam Jackson stories, like how we used to be best mates...cause I knew he'd to be famous some day. "What was the name of that bar we used to hang out at, tossing around story ideas, before a round of darts?"

I'm just kidding, obviously. But that's the way people are. If you are struggling, they'll give you the "who does he think he is" stare. Then if you make it, they act like they knew it all along.

maestrowork · Apr 25, 2005

Not my mom. She's still asking, "Are you going to find a job?"

Nateskate · Apr 25, 2005

Saritams8 said:
Yes, it's my mother too. "Why would you want to quit your job to go back to school? You want to dig up bones? Who do you think you are, Indiana Jones? Your life wont be like that, you know! What on earth could you be writing?" My father, on the other hand, saved the first book I wrote (when I was 6 yrs old), and keeps it out on his desk as a reminder for me; he recently asked me to collaborate with him on a Viet Nam Memoir, researches little tidbits about Peru that I can't find elsewhere. It's like having my own lobbyist.

Woman, you are just too cool. You went back to school to be an Archeaologist? Or was it forensic scientist? Paleontologist (See, I can't even spell half these things)

Sarita · Apr 25, 2005

Nateskate said:
Woman, you are just too cool. You went back to school to be an Archeaologist?

hehe, thanks Nate! Yeah, archaeologist with a minor in linguistics. I'm just taking a few classes by correspondence now, but will start up full time in the summer. I can't wait.

cwfgal · Apr 25, 2005

Thanks to my obstinant nature, whenever someone tells me how long the odds are for my success, I become even more determined to try to get there. If I don't succeed at least I know I tried, and if I do succeed, well, that satisfaction is hard to beat.

When it comes to writing I've had far more encouragement from folks than naysaying. I'm probably the biggest pessimist of anyone I know.

Beth

Nateskate · Apr 25, 2005

Saritams8 said:
hehe, thanks Nate! Yeah, archaeologist with a minor in linguistics. I'm just taking a few classes by correspondence now, but will start up full time in the summer. I can't wait.

Well if my series ever takes off, it's nice knowing someone who knows the lingo. I already have parts of the follow-up written, which take place in modern times. It begins with an archaeologist trying to figure out why someone's shooting at him.

They are in the crossfires of religious and political wars, and uncover secrets of the fall of prior civilizations, which become pivotal in saving human kind from an emerging evil that threatens to destroy the world.

Spookster · Apr 25, 2005

They are in the crossfires of religious and political wars, and uncover secrets of the fall of prior civilizations, which become pivotal in saving human kind from an emerging evil that threatens to destroy the world.

Ooooh. Sounds interesting!

Sara. Good luck in school. I'm going back to college this summer, too. Not for anything as interesting as Archeology, though. I'm shooting for Trauma RN.

Christine N. · Apr 25, 2005

Ooh, now I have someone to pump in case i need archaeological information. The backstory character in my WIP series (we never meet him, he died years ago) was an archaeologist who dug up a weird mystical artifacts, among other things. I haven't had to use any real arch. information yet, but I know who to come to if I do! LOL

Oh, and the question - my dad's sister. She's got the graduate degree, she's a librarian. So no one can be better than her. I love her to death, don't get me wrong, but when I told her I had requests to read from three publishers, she looked at me like I had grown another head. "None of them asked for MONEY, did they?" Like I'm an idiot. Yeah, she's never really read anything of mine, but she gave an opinion.

brinkett · Apr 25, 2005

Christine N. said:
I love her to death, don't get me wrong, but when I told her I had requests to read from three publishers, she looked at me like I had grown another head. "None of them asked for MONEY, did they?" Like I'm an idiot.

What is it about people who want to pour cold water over everything? I know it says more about them than anything, but still...

Reph: we must have been separated at birth.

Sarita · Apr 25, 2005

Yeah, y'all. Hit me up when you need info! I'm not too deep into my major yet, but I expect to be within a semester or 2. Triceretops knows a bunch, too and he's very helpful.

Maryn · Apr 25, 2005

Boy, this throw-cold-water-on-you thread has been a count-your-blessings eye-opener for me. (Yeah, I picked up a basket of hyphens yesterday. Go ahead, take a handful.) The most discouraging reaction I ever got was when a play of mine was produced and Mr. Maryn and I went to see it. "You wrote that?" he asked. What, did he think I'd been hunched over the keyboard all this time playing spider solitaire?

My adult daughter comes in second--she encourages me to keep writing because I enjoy it (which I do), not because I might sell it. I read a subtext that she doesn't think I can or will, and my past sales, all smallish, don't count.

Maryn, grateful not to hear a discouraging word, even though the skies are cloudy all day

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