Info dumping

Info dumps don't have to be in dialogue. Information needs to be sprinkled through the narrative, but an info dump is when the story stops for an indigestible section of something which the author appears to believe the reader needs to know. For example, introducing a character then going on to describe the character's background all the way to when the character learned to walk, then returning to the story in progress. By that point, the reader can't remember why the character showed up in the first place.

A type of info dump in dialogue is sometimes called "As you know, Bob" dialogue. That's when two characters discuss in gory detail something that both of them should already know just to bring the reader up to speed.

For your amusement and edification: The Turkey City Lexicon, as referenced in the "Learn Writing With Uncle Jim" thread in the Writing Novels forum:

http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html

Backstory is usually the culprit with info dumps, and it tends to occur in the first fifty or so pages. That's when the story is just trying to get started, and the writer is still trying to figure out how to get all this information in. And sometimes it's really hard, so we end up with things like:

Exposition dumps: Explaining Mary's backstory so the reader knows. Or, if a fantasy, explaining details of the world. I like to call this warmup writing because it's kind of the result of the writer trying to find his way into thes story and figure out where to go.

Flashbacks: Some writers can't figure out how to get the backstory in, so they do a flashback instead. A story that opens with Mary driving down the road and in the next sentence flashing back to explain to the reader the backstory. Flashbacks get a bad rap because of usage like this.

Dreams: Sometimes dream sequences get used to convey backstory, kind of a like a flashback via dream.

Prologues: Prologues have also gotten a bad rap because they've been used to show backstory the writer couldn't figure out how to get in otherwise.

Dialogue: "As you know, Bob, our secret mission is to infriltrate into the castle." You're right that something like this wouldn't make sense in a normal conversation. Why would two people who already knew the information discuss it as if they didn't know the information?

One of the authors you may want to look at is J.A. Konrath. I read his books and was amazed and how he got information to the reader through the development of the story and dialogue.

I think the evil of infodumps is overrated.
All depends on how the information is exposed.

Right, it's not the information that is the problem. It's the "dump."

How much info has to be there in order for it to be a real "dump"?
I am afraid I am doing this in my current WIP...

Here's a good example of how to do an info-dump right without it being a "dump":

Have you read Brave New World? Do you know the very first scene, where the new workers are touring the hatchery and the director is telling them how everything works? You get a lot of information in a very "As you know, Bob" way...but it works, because these are new workers, who don't know, and it makes sense that they're being instructed. Plus, it's interspersed with other scenes in which we are introduced to all kinds of other new concepts without any exposition about what they are. If you the director had been talking to another worker who already knew how it all worked, it would feel very fake, and it would be an "As you know, Bob" infodump.

And of course, infodumps don't have to be in dialogue. It can be in the exposition, where--just as the two lovers are introduced--the writer randomly starts explaining in detail how they met and started dating, etc., when either a) it doesn't really matter or b) it does matter, but not yet, and it belongs elsewhere. (For some reason, in my summer class, just about every writer who had a couple in their story did this...)

ccarver30 said:

How much info has to be there in order for it to be a real "dump"?
I am afraid I am doing this in my current WIP...

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Not much, it just has to be out-of-place. Ask yourself if it's "telling" rather than "showing."

For example, say you have portable hologram projector in your science fiction story. Don't explain how it's a hologram projector, or how they were invented, or how they work. Just show us the hologram. The reader will get it.

Thanks, ku. I am still figuring out showing/telling. I am trying to be more subtle in this WIP! LOL

ccarver30 said:

How much info has to be there in order for it to be a real "dump"?
I am afraid I am doing this in my current WIP...

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A) Is the information necessary?

B) Is the information out of place for that scene or character?

C) Do the readers need to know that information, now? Can it be sprinkled around later?

D) Is it integrated into the plot?

E) If it's in dialogue, are you committing the "As you know, Bob..." sin?

What if two characters just meet. The one is the MC and they are becoming somewhat romantically inclined. Is it a "As you know, Bob?" dialog scene if they're asking questions about their past and telling little interesting anecdotes?

Shadow_Ferret said:

What if two characters just meet. The one is the MC and they are becoming somewhat romantically inclined. Is it a "As you know, Bob?" dialog scene if they're asking questions about their past and telling little interesting anecdotes?

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I don't think so, not if the other character actually doesn't know it. The reason it's called "As you know, Bob" is because Bob already knows. If Bob doesn't know, it should be fine. (As long as it's interesting and plot-advancing or character-developing, but that goes for everything.)

maestrowork said:

A) Is the information necessary?

B) Is the information out of place for that scene or character?

C) Do the readers need to know that information, now? Can it be sprinkled around later?

D) Is it integrated into the plot?

E) If it's in dialogue, are you committing the "As you know, Bob..." sin?

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As always, hot stuff, you have added value.
It's the C that I am having trouble with. I know it could be added later, but I have an opportune time to throw it in... I'm working on it!!
E makes me want to cut my hands off!

It's such a delicate balancing act. There is information that has to be relayed in order to have the story make sense. There is only so much of leaving the reader guessing that you can get away with, especially if the plot is somewhat involved. I'm still trying to figure out how much is too much.

Donkey said:

It's such a delicate balancing act. There is information that has to be relayed in order to have the story make sense. There is only so much of leaving the reader guessing that you can get away with, especially if the plot is somewhat involved. I'm still trying to figure out how much is too much.

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What I've found is, if you think it might be too much, it usually is too much. I usually cut it back to what I think is not quite enough. Then I run it by my favorite beta, and ask if it was confusing. If it is confusing (like I think it might be), then I can go back and add more. But usually, she says it's not. Made perfect sense. Readers are usually smarter than we give them credit for. It's hard to remember that, since we know so much of the story, can only tell so much, so we're left thinking "no! If I don't put this and this and this in, it won't make any sense!" Usually, less is more.

kuwisdelu said:

What I've found is, if you think it might be too much, it usually is too much. I usually cut it back to what I think is not quite enough. Then I run it by my favorite beta, and ask if it was confusing. If it is confusing (like I think it might be), then I can go back and add more. But usually, she says it's not. Made perfect sense. Readers are usually smarter than we give them credit for. It's hard to remember that, since we know so much of the story, can only tell so much, so we're left thinking "no! If I don't put this and this and this in, it won't make any sense!" Usually, less is more.

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I think is especially true if you are a specific genre writer. I write Regency Romances. My readers will know what my peeps are wearing w/o explaining to the max.

I just read a mystery by H.R.F. Keating, who's been writing these things for years and has won every imaginable award. It was interestingly plotted, featured a vivid and complex main character, and well-paced.

But I almost couldn't get through it because the first chapter was an Info-Dump Fiesta. It was mostly dialog between the protagonist and her husband, and it was all "So, Bill, who's that man over there?" "Why, that's Roy Roughead, the politician. I hear he's very wealthy." "What's he doing?" "He's making a speech in favor of foxhunting--that's why he's wearing the traditional Master of Hounds outfit of a red coat, breeches, and knee boots. Of course, the red coat is called 'pink' by the hunting set." "I wonder if there will be any protesters?" "Well, of course there are many groups who want foxhunting outlawed..." blah, blah, blah.

It settled down after that, but the first chapter was unbearable.


Jo Walton, an author of really great alternate histories (among other stuff) coined the word "incluing" to describe the opposite of info-dumping. See her discussion of it here.

Now that I'm writing, I have a nose for info dumps in books that won't quit. It's a common refrain, but true: once you start reading like a writer, watch out. Enjoyment wanes. "As you know, Bob" starts sticking out all over the page.

There is one bestseller right now, not well-written by the way, just inflammatory, that must have the first 50 pages as nothing but info dump. And all passive. If I highlighted the was had and were, I swear my laptop would crash.

Rant over. Thanks for 'listening'!

ccarver30 said:

It's the C that I am having trouble with. I know it could be added later, but I have an opportune time to throw it in... I'm working on it!!

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I think a) you have to trust your readers, that they don't need all the information and certainly not all at once -- they're smart enough to figure things out and not get confused; b) you may need to learn how to create suspense and "cliffhangers" and mystery by withholding information. The minute you feel like you need to tell, cut that out and see if the story still moves, and that you can still hold the readers' attention without confusing them. If that's the case, you don't need that information.

E makes me want to cut my hands off!

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That's why betas are very helpful. They can tell you whether the dialogue works and is natural, or it's stilted or info-dumpy.

Read the first few pages of anything by Danielle Steel. OK, she's sold roughly a bajillion books, but she can dump with the best.

Shadow_Ferret said:

What if two characters just meet. The one is the MC and they are becoming somewhat romantically inclined. Is it a "As you know, Bob?" dialog scene if they're asking questions about their past and telling little interesting anecdotes?

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No, but I think you have to be careful and not draw out the scene too long, especially if the reader all ready knows some of the things the characters are sharing, you know? If you've all ready introduced Character 1's age, occupation, family memebers maybe, then you wouldn't want to go into too much detail with all that when she meets Character 2. Does that make sense?

Is it a bad info dump if character A tells a story to character B, hoping to persuade character B to do something? Character B hasn't heard the story before.

Mad Queen said:

Is it a bad info dump if character A tells a story to character B, hoping to persuade character B to do something? Character B hasn't heard the story before.

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Has the reader heard the story before?