English or British?

bylinebree · Aug 16, 2008

Hey there, long time no-on the Forum! But I'm back...hopefully for a while.

Never been to the UK (but would love to go!) And "British men" and the occasional setting there keep creeping into my stories. Like so many Americans, I love many things "British." Or is it "English?" I'm confused.

Which is it, when and why? I met a man at a writer's conference and called him "British" and he smiled patiently at me, and said "I'm English." During the course of our conversation, I never could ascertain why he corrected me.

What the heck do you call yourselves?

mab · Aug 16, 2008

commencing pedantry

the term 'British', whilst correct, tends to be used mostly by non-Brits
If someone says 'British accent' they definitely aren't British! :tongue

Personally I don't mind being called British or English. I usually refer to myself as 'from the UK', but I don't really care. Some do though! National and regional identity can be strong.

People tend to think British=English. Its not so simple.

In fact Great Britain is made up of England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. Some people prefer to think of themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh etc...rather than British (even though they're technically both). Other people take great pride in their particular region, and think of themselves as 'Cornish' or 'from Yorkshire' first and foremost. Its a can of worms, really! Best to ask.

There is no such thing as a 'British accent'. Many accents, yes! Would you say a Scot has a British accent? Well they do! Its a bit of a silly term really, please don't use it (not that you do...)

And our islands are called 'Great Britain' or 'United Kingdom' ...apparently there's a difference but honestly I don't know what it is. ETA: Apparently UK includes Northern Ireland, GB does not. Well, now I know!

bylinebree · Aug 16, 2008

pedantry appreciated

Mab: I had a "duh!" moment reading your reply, as in Great Britain...oh yeah...all that would be "British" wouldn't it?

Glad to hear that the term "British accent" is not used - but by us generalistic Americans! Of course, we don't use "American accent" for ourselves but do talk about Brits who try to lose their accent for a film role, for example:

"His American accent was pretty good, overall, but for few times his vowels sounded weird." (a comment about Iaon Gryffudd in The Fantastic Four)

Collin Farrell is very, very good at doing a neutral sort of American accent. There'a few actresses who pull one off very well, also, but I can't think of a name to save me.

Thanks for your patient and helpful answer! This should send me back to an atlas in the near future.

How do you react to American writers who "write Brits" and don't quite get it right? Does it jar you out of the story?

qwerty · Aug 16, 2008

Can't think why the guy corrected you. If he's English, he's also British. I always give my nationality as British, but then, my hubby is of Scots descent, so it covers us both.

It's a bit like when I recognise someone is speaking with either an Australian or New zealand accent but I'm not 100% sure which, I refer to them as Antipodean to be on the safe side - coward that I am.

bylinebree · Aug 16, 2008

...and Antipodean sent me scrambling to my Oxford dictionary!

waylander · Aug 16, 2008

mab said:
And our islands are called 'Great Britain' or 'United Kingdom' ...apparently there's a difference but honestly I don't know what it is. ETA: Apparently UK includes Northern Ireland, GB does not. Well, now I know!

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the full title.
Great Britain is just Wales, Sctoland and England.
The British Isles is Great Britain and Ireland.

Many English people will answer to British; most Scots, Welsh and Irish will assert that they are Scottish, Welsh or Irish

As for US writers getting Brits 'wrong'. It does pull me out of a story. There are plenty of us around to ask about stuff

mab · Aug 16, 2008

you don't usually say 'American accent?' Huh! Is it just not specific enough? I mean, I do occasionally say 'English accent' or 'Welsh accent' 'Scottish accent' etc....but its more useful for me to say 'Glaswegian accent' or 'Scouse (liverpudlian) accent' as thats more specific.

I'm trying to think of Americans writing Brits...hmm. The one which pops out in my mind is good old Buffy, a US show with quite a few English characters...I really loved Giles, even though in some respects he was the cliche of a stuffy, bookish Englishman...but he seemed real, he had the dry sense of humour and dark side of a Brit. (English actor also helped). Whilst Wesley was JUST the priggish cliche, he really annoyed me and was very unrealistic. I can't really think of an example from a novel, possibly 'cos I don't read all that much American contemporary fiction, but I can imagine it would annoy me and pull me out of the story.

I suppose the main mistakes are thinking we all live in the 1950s (or earlier!), that we're all white, we're all posh, or that we're all a bit Hugh Grant. There certainly are a lot of posh people, but they're in the minority. And only a few of these posh people are bumbling Hugh Grant types.

Mandy-Jane · Aug 16, 2008

qwerty said:
It's a bit like when I recognise someone is speaking with either an Australian or New zealand accent but I'm not 100% sure which, I refer to them as Antipodean to be on the safe side - coward that I am.

Oh no! Don't tell me you confuse us with those funny-speaking New Zealanders!

qwerty · Aug 16, 2008

Renee Zellwegger made a splendid fist of a Brit accent in Briget Jones.

mab · Aug 16, 2008

yes, but Keanu was the best (awful English accent ever..)

In fact many US actors, such as Gwyneth, do excellent UK accents. She's so convincing she had me fooled!

But its the terrible ones that have stayed with me to haunt me forever...Kevin Costner as Robin Hood (didn't even try!) Dick Van Dyke....

then again there are a LOT of Brits playing Yanks at the mo...not all with accuracy I bet!

Jill · Aug 16, 2008

I'm both British and English - a British citizen, resident of Spain, spent my childhood in Southern Africa, many of my adult years in Nigeria and Northern Ireland. But I'm still English and British and most of the time happy to admit it.

qwerty · Aug 16, 2008

Some valid points in there, mab. Like, why the heck have Costner play Robin Hood when there are plenty of genuine Brit actors around. As for DVD - ooh, interesting set of initials there - trying to play a Brit role opposite Julie Andrews . . .

All of which makes me wonder if, as writers, we are too sensitive about creating out of our own nationality characters.

Carmy · Aug 16, 2008

I live in Canada now. Some people ask me if I'm English, because my accent isn't pure Canajian, eh, so they know I'm from somewhere else. English is a guess. My answer is: "Welsh."

Oddly, many Newfoundlanders sound more English than the English. I've been fooled a few times.

bylinebree · Aug 16, 2008

who wants easy?

"Welsh" ha.
Yeah, Kevin Costner did make me cringe. But how strange was it to have Hayley Mills as the Classic American Teen in Disney movies with her English accent? (I almost needed therapy for that one LOL)

I love Maeve Binchy's writing, but when she tries to do "Americanese" in dialogue, I roll my eyes - she still sounds British. It's so hard to shake off those ingrained, native language patterns!

I tend to think of my own U.S. nationality as a bit boring...though I know it thoroughly (in certain geographic areas anyway). Writing an American character would be easy, of course. But who wants easy??

Here's another q: Are you Brits as fascinated with America as so many of are, with your country etc? Especially American women - we seem to just puddle into goo at a man with a British accent...Scottish, Irish, English, doesn't matter.

Priene · Aug 16, 2008

And only a few of these posh people are bumbling Hugh Grant types

Hey, I'm not posh, but I've had my share of Hugh Grant moments. I've never had an American woman puddle-ize into goo in front of me, though. Perhaps my broad Norfolk rendition of 'On the ball, City' is putting them off.

There's been an upsurge in English national feeling in the last few years. Prior to Scottish/Welsh devolution, you never saw English flags or people celebrating St George's Day. Some English people have started to define themselves as not-British. For my own part, I've always thought the essence of Englishness is not caring either way about being English. If there's no sport on the telly, I'd rather have a tooth pulled than call myself 'English'.

You can differentiate New Zealanders from Aussies because the former pronounce 'e' as 'i'. If they say 'yis', they're a Kiwi.

qwerty · Aug 16, 2008

bylinebree said:
Are you Brits as fascinated with America as so many of are, with your country etc?

Um, not personally.

Priene said:
If they say 'yis', they're a Kiwi.

Or South African.

waylander · Aug 16, 2008

bylinebree said:
Here's another q: Are you Brits as fascinated with America as so many of are, with your country etc? Especially American women - we seem to just puddle into goo at a man with a British accent...Scottish, Irish, English, doesn't matter.

Basically no.
Now French women.......

rugcat · Aug 16, 2008

mab said:
yes, but Keanu was the best (awful English accent ever..)

In fact many US actors, such as Gwyneth, do excellent UK accents. She's so convincing she had me fooled!

But its the terrible ones that have stayed with me to haunt me forever...Kevin Costner as Robin Hood (didn't even try!) Dick Van Dyke....

then again there are a LOT of Brits playing Yanks at the mo...not all with accuracy I bet!

Hugh Laurie does a perfect American accent on House. If you had never seen him on Fry and Laurie or as Bertie Wooster, you'd never tumble to the fact he's English.

But how about James Marsters?(Spike on Buffy) He's from California, but I totally bought his accent. What say our British friends?

Kristy101081 · Aug 16, 2008

Wow, what an interesting thread...and I've learned stuff I didn't know. I thought I was pretty much up on my English culture. Ah, well.

Now, y'all - yes I'm a southern belle, so my American accent (I use the term, some don't) does have a bit of a twang to it - are breaking my heart with this not caring for American women bit. I am totally with Bree - a man is instantly more attractive when they have an English accent - well, any European accent really. I prefer English and Irish, just personal preference. You could curse me out and I'd still smile all dreamy-eyed. OK, not really. But, you get the point. So what is it? Are we too available in that we are fascinated with the culture, do you think? Or is it something else?

Priene · Aug 16, 2008

rugcat said:
But how about James Marsters?(Spike on Buffy) He's from California, but I totally bought his accent. What say our British
friends?

Every time he opened his mouth I wanted to punch it closed. After that, repeat the treatment with double portions of ferocity on Daphne Moon from Frasier. Unbelievably, she's English and still can't do the accent.

qwerty · Aug 16, 2008

waylander said:
Now French women.......

I live in France but I've got an East Anglian accent - guess that's a no no.

frimble3 · Aug 16, 2008

I'm thinking that the closest approximation of the "I'm not British, I'm English" thing in American terms would be if an Englishman were to call a visiting American a "Yankee" and get a snarled, "I'm no Yankee, I'm from Alabama!" in return. Or "I'm a Texan!" A person self-identifying with a particular region(country) rather than a political division.But then, I'm Canadian, what do I know?

eyeblink · Aug 16, 2008

waylander said:
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the full title.
Great Britain is just Wales, Sctoland and England.
The British Isles is Great Britain and Ireland.

Also, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands (Jersey, Guernsey, Sark, Alderney) are part of the British Isles but are NOT part of the United Kingdom nor part of the European Union. They are self-governing Crown Dependencies.

All the other smaller islands (The Isle of Wight, Isles of Scilly, Anglesey, Inner and Outer Hebrides, Orkney Islands, Shetland Islands etc) are part of England, Wales or Scotland, depending on location.

Priene · Aug 17, 2008

Captshady said:
Have any of you .. umm .. UK'ers seen Parent Trap with Lindsey Lohan? She supposedly had an accent coach.

I'm sad to say I've missed Ms Lohan's oeuvre in its entirety.

But the best English accent by an American was Renee Zellweger, and that's a fact. I can't judge whether Hugh Laurie on House does a convincing American, but every time I hear him I think of the American ass sketch.

Nakhlasmoke · Aug 17, 2008

qwerty said:
Um, not personally.

Or South African.

News to me.

I always thought it was the ja that gave a souff efricen away

English or British?

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