Book length

[jimflint1]

I first wrote my novel at 57,000 words. After reading many writer's guidelines that wanted something well over that, and after having a personal interview with an editor at Penguin confirm it, I decided to go back through and see where I could add something to a scene here, or a conversation there. After going through about half the book, I'm up to 61,000 words, hoping to make 65,000. My question is this: what's the optimal length for first novel to sell?


Shane

[ScottAJohnson]

The short answer is, it depends. Most large presses whose guidelines I've read ask for a minimum of 80,000 words. Many small presses will accept half that. Some small presses I've seen have a cut-off of 60,000 words. The thing to do is, look for the press you want and then look at their guidelines.
Of course, the real thing to do is to be true to the story first.
My first book was 57,000 words, and it was picked up by a traditional, albeit small press, publisher. The two I'm working on right now, I'm determined to hit that 80,000 word mark to try to attack the big boys.

Just my $.02...

[Vomaxx]

I believe that 80,000 - 100,000 words is the usual "ballpark figure." This probably varies by genre. Fantasy novels are usually longer than detective novels, for instance.

[jimflint1]

Thanks, to both of you.

Shane

[Julie Worth]

The other day I got a letter from Bantam Dell, saying they require 100,000 words to be considered. I assume that’s for people like me, the unwashed and unpublished, and not for established authors. Still, there’s always the question as to what that 100 thousand means. For a big publisher, it’s probably based on 250 words a page, and not computer count. So you might want to calculate your word count that way, because it will usually be higher, sometimes much higher.
There’s a thread on calculating word count somewhere around here, but I couldn’t find it.

Anyway, 100,000 words equals 400 pages in standard format—25 lines per page, 12 pt Courier New, and one inch margins.

[Sharon Mock]

On a related note -- are there any resources for finding out the word count of a published novel? (Other than doing it myself, which I suppose I could do, but would rather not.)

I have a general sense of what 100,000 words "looks" and "feels" like, but it would be useful to compare the WIP with the various chapbooks and doorstops laying around the house.

[Jamesaritchie]

On a related note -- are there any resources for finding out the word count of a published novel? (Other than doing it myself, which I suppose I could do, but would rather not.)

I have a general sense of what 100,000 words "looks" and "feels" like, but it would be useful to compare the WIP with the various chapbooks and doorstops laying around the house.

So much is done to published novels in font choice, kerning, etc., that it can be really difficult to tell.

But with some classic novels, rough but pretty darned close word count would be:

Anne of Green Gables = 100,000 words.
Huckleberry Finn =100,000 words.
Great Expectations = 190,000 words.
Moby Dick = 220,000 words.

For a work in progress, use Courier 12, double-spaced, and with one inch margins. Doing so means that a four hundred page manuscript will be pretty much exactly a 100,000 word novel, as publishers count words.

When using this format, you can safely ignore whatever your word count program says, and simply count each page, full page or partial, as having 250 words, as publishers count them

It's a great way to judge a WIP. Every ten pages is 2,500 words, every 100 pages is 25,000 words, etc.

[zeprosnepsid]

Adding scenes to your novel? That sounds impossible. Won't it seem like padding to the reader? Cutting out is a lot easier than adding.

Anyway, I think this is crazy. Why would a publishing house want your book to be long? I am way more likely to pick up a short book than a long one.

Catcher in the Rye is only 224 pages. I recently picked up Henry James' The Aspern Papers which is a 112 pages over his more well known novels Portrait of a Lady or Wings of the Dove just because it was shorter.

But I suppose, on the other hand, The Aspern Papers costs $1.50 because of it's length. Maybe it's just a money thing.

But I really think that publishers not accepting shorter books is just silly.

Nonetheless, I say be true to your book. You have to do what's best for your story.

[Jamesaritchie]

But I really think that publishers not accepting shorter books is just silly.

Nonetheless, I say be true to your book. You have to do what's best for your story.

Each publisher generally has pretty strict length guidelines for each line and type of book. They will not stray outside these guidelines lightly, especially for new writers. Too short is usually better than too long, but there are many reasons why publishers ask for specific lengths of novels. Money, sales numbers, and reader expectations are high on the list.

I do think you have to be true to the novel, but if you wish to write a 100K novel, you can.

But whatever length you write, it will have to fit within the publishers guidelines. This may be 60K for one line, 80K for another line, and 100K or more for another line. Some lines have a bit of wiggle room, say 80-100K, others have almost none.

[Zolah]

Adding scenes to your novel? That sounds impossible. Won't it seem like padding to the reader? Cutting out is a lot easier than adding.


Not at all! With my first ms I was really strict with myself over wordcount. After editing and pruning it, I came out with something that I thought fitted established guidelines as to length for my genre and age range. I was pretty proud of it.

So, then I found an editor willing to work with me on it - and what was the first thing he said? 'You're short-changing the story. These characters have more in them than this.' I was flabbergasted. Editors aren't supposed to say that! But he was right. I'd been so keen to stick to what I thought was a publishable length that I'd ignored areas where my story's themes could truly have shone, ignored possibilities that would have brought my characters to life.

By the time we'd finished 'editing', I'd worked out an alternate story strand that showed events from the POV of a different character than my protagonist, lengthened a key battle scene and another crucial scene midway through the story, and added an extra chapter to the end to tie up loose ends! And the novel was ten times better for it.

Adding isn't always padding.

[Jamesaritchie]

Adding isn't always padding.

Very true. Just as many first drafts need to be cut by 10-20%, other first drafts need to be lengthened by the same amount.

"Writers are either putter-inners or taker-outers, and I'm a taker-outer. I want my sentences to be short and sweet and hopefully loaded." --Jonathan
Carroll.

This applies to all parts of a novel. Some writers write long and have to cut later, while otehrs write short and have to add later. There's nothing at all wrong with cutting, and nothing at all wrong with lengthening.

[Sharon Mock]

For a work in progress, use Courier 12, double-spaced, and with one inch margins. Doing so means that a four hundred page manuscript will be pretty much exactly a 100,000 word novel, as publishers count words.

When using this format, you can safely ignore whatever your word count program says, and simply count each page, full page or partial, as having 250 words, as publishers count them

It's a great way to judge a WIP. Every ten pages is 2,500 words, every 100 pages is 25,000 words, etc.

I finally got around to fine-tuning the file into 250/page format (previously, though double-spaced Courier 12, it was using a lot of Psion Word defaults). I was not pleased with the results.

Deleting the spaces around the em-dashes (--) made things considerably more bearable. Except, of course, that it made clear how badly I abuse the em-dash!

Still. Unless I find where the masses of excess verbiage are lurking, even getting down to 120,000 manuscript words is going to be a struggle. I foresee going through the manuscript paragraph by paragraph, picking at phrasing to try to get all those two- and three-word final lines back onto the line previous...

What can I say, it's a cat-vacuuming kind of day.

[James D. Macdonald]

Adding scenes to your novel? That sounds impossible. Won't it seem like padding to the reader? Cutting out is a lot easier than adding.

Don't add scenes. Add story. Add plot and subplot. It'll work.

[kybudman]

I'm a bit surprised. I would have bet money that Unca Jim would have told you to write the story until the story is told, then stop. But I agree that writing action and plot is the best way to expand a work. I find it much, much easier than pulling action and plot out of a work. Good luck!

[zizban]

my first novel was 74,000 words, the second 50,000. I'm trying on my new one to get to 75,000.

[clotje]

The other day I got a letter from Bantam Dell, saying they require 100,000 words to be considered. I assume that’s for people like me, the unwashed and unpublished, and not for established authors. Still, there’s always the question as to what that 100 thousand means. For a big publisher, it’s probably based on 250 words a page, and not computer count. So you might want to calculate your word count that way, because it will usually be higher, sometimes much higher.
There’s a thread on calculating word count somewhere around here, but I couldn’t find it.

Anyway, 100,000 words equals 400 pages in standard format—25 lines per page, 12 pt Courier New, and one inch margins.


Hmm OK, I'm probably really stupid but...100 thousand words is 100 thousands words, whether it's 250 words per page or 300 words per page, isn't it?!?!? What have I missed? (Math is not my strong point. LOL) I've come across this 250 words per page thing before and I don't get it.

[Sharon Mock]

Hmm OK, I'm probably really stupid but...100 thousand words is 100 thousands words, whether it's 250 words per page or 300 words per page, isn't it?!?!? What have I missed? (Math is not my strong point. LOL) I've come across this 250 words per page thing before and I don't get it.

Ah, but "words" are not words. :) "Words" (from a publisher's point of view) is an estimation of how much space the manuscript takes up. For example, a page full of one-word dialogue takes up the same space as a page-long paragraph, even though I guarantee you that paragraph has more words in it.

I like this explanation of how to format to get that mythical 250/page: http://www.passionatepen.com/formatarticle.htm

[Jamesaritchie]

Hmm OK, I'm probably really stupid but...100 thousand words is 100 thousands words, whether it's 250 words per page or 300 words per page, isn't it?!?!? What have I missed? (Math is not my strong point. LOL) I've come across this 250 words per page thing before and I don't get it.

To a publisher, what really matters is how much paper is used to print the book, not how much ink is on the paper. Paper is expensive, but ink is cheap. A page at the end of the chapter that may have only three or four sentences on it still takes a full sheet of paper to publish.

A page filled with short dialogue may have no more than fifty "words" on it, but it takes just as much paper to publish as does a page that is all dense narrative with 450 "words."

When you look at it this way, a word isn't just a word. "Encyclopedia" uses more paper than "I."

Odds are you'll come reasonably close to guidelines however you count the words, but using the Courier and opne inch margin method can save some unpoleasant surprises down the line. Many writers who sell a novel are then asked to make cuts for length, and this is one of the reasons.

[clotje]

Thanks very much for the explanations...now I get it! :)

[oneidii]

Uh...but YA novels they recommend 50-80,000? At least that was the information I received when asking around ... am I off? EEK!

[edfrzr]

I have gone through my MS 5 times now and each time I feel as though I can edit a phrase here or conversation there.

My biggest fear when I first started was -- is there enough of an idea here to make a good story? After my last edit I was at almost 119K (MS word TNR 12pt). I have also calculated it the way suggested above at the 250 per page with the other font and it becomes ridiculous at that point.

I have actually tried to remove portions of the story only to find that I end up making it up elsewhere.

I wish I could give you published advice, I can't. But my gut tells me to tell the story by painting the word picture. The painting isn't just red, blue and green. It is all those colors and more and each time you look at it you will see something new. I think that is what your story should be. You'll know when it's done.

On the second one I've only hit 104K, yet deep down I feel it isn't enough.

Cheesy I know -- but that's how I feel.

[Sharon Mock]

So, I did a quick and dirty word-count estimate on one of my favorite books from the past few years. One that was satisfyingly dense but not (I thought) overly-dense -- maybe 150,000 words, I thought?

280,000.

That's it. I give up. I'm concentrating on making my WIP into the best book it can be, not worrying about carving it down to a size that looks good on a query letter.

[LightShadow]

New writers, optimal is 80,000. Figure it out as 250 words per page, 12 pt, Time New Roman doublespaced. i.e. 330 pages is 82,500.

[mschannon]

I've read that publishers look askance at unpublished novelists submitting anything over 100,000 words. I just finished my final draft, and, using the formatting suggested above, I come up with 143,000! It's not, of course, but 250 words x 572 pages...

Is this a serious problem?

[Lenora Rose]

Uh...but YA novels they recommend 50-80,000? At least that was the information I received when asking around ... am I off? EEK!

Children's and YA tend to be shorter (and those that look the same length often have larger type...)


I've read that publishers look askance at unpublished novelists submitting anything over 100,000 words. I just finished my final draft, and, using the formatting suggested above, I come up with 143,000! It's not, of course, but 250 words x 572 pages...

Is this a serious problem?

Is the novel really really good?

You're probably okay. it is a stumbling block, and someone WILL reject it and cite length considerations... but someone else may well look past that.

If you're really concerned, you can ask a beta-reader if any part of it feels padded or overlong.

[LightShadow]

I've read that publishers look askance at unpublished novelists submitting anything over 100,000 words. I just finished my final draft, and, using the formatting suggested above, I come up with 143,000! It's not, of course, but 250 words x 572 pages...

Is this a serious problem?
That's why sometimes I wonder about that industry standard formula, because some writers fill the pages up, and some write with a lot of quick dialogue that leaves more open space than print on the pages. Still, 572 pages is a lot of print for a newbie. 'Course, it sometimes depends on the genre. Find out from agents or publishers what they want for your genre.

[B.L. Robinson]

I just finished printing out my novel in a 6x9 format for proofing and came up with 330 pages with Times New Roman and 12 pitch font. I had a WP word count of 130,800 on this manuscript. The publisher that I have in mind says that "anything under 100,000 words makes them nervous", and the most that I have found that I can cut out is only around a hundred words, anyways! I followed the old "write it till the story is done" plan, and this is where I ended up.

Bruce

[Richard White]

I know Luna (the fantasy imprint for Harlequin) wants stories between 130,000-150,000 words. The stories I did for ibooks (media tie-ins with Midway Games) was originally supposed to be around 80,000. Wound up being just a hair over 100,000 when I was finished. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteShrug.gif (Course, that one was 115k hand-written before I started editing it down.)

The media tie-in books for Games Workshop are 92-95K minimum.

I think 80K is a great rule of thumb, but if you're writing with a specific publisher in mind, be certain to see if they've posted anything about that in their submission guidelines.

[Elonna]

I'm feeling dense today and just would like to clarify something. As an example, the first 10 pages of my WIP shows a word count of 3,020 words in MS Word (TNR, 12 pt, 1" margins, chapter started half way down first page). Using the 250 wds/pg method, it would be 2500 words.

Which count should be used on the query to agent/publisher?

Thanks.

[azbikergirl]

I noticed something interesting with my ms. By MS Word's count, it's 120,000 words. If I format it so that it averages 250 words per page across the entire novel, it comes to 440 pages (110,500 words). If I format it using Courier New 12 point w/1-inch margins, spaced at 25 pt so that there are 25 lines of text per page, it comes out to 133,000 words (counting 250 x 532 pages).

But if I use Framemaker (instead of MS Word) with the same formatting, it comes to only 125,500 words (250 x 502 pages). So, when I print the final manuscript, I'll convert it to Framemaker first!

[maestrowork]

I'm feeling dense today and just would like to clarify something. As an example, the first 10 pages of my WIP shows a word count of 3,020 words in MS Word (TNR, 12 pt, 1" margins, chapter started half way down first page). Using the 250 wds/pg method, it would be 2500 words.

Which count should be used on the query to agent/publisher?

Thanks.

When in doubt, I'd use the 250w/p method. The word processor counts might be off due to many reasons.

[katiemac]

When in doubt, I'd use the 250w/p method. The word processor counts might be off due to many reasons.

Elonna, just make sure that when you use the 250w/p method, your font is Courier, size 12, as opposed to TNR.

[Elonna]

Ahh yes katie, making it courier comes out just about right. 2,286 for 10 pages, but that is with the first page being half blank. Now it all makes more sense to me ;)

Thanks

P.S. Obviously we need to follow specs for who we are submitting to for what font they want, but this is helpful for me to keep a gauge of where I am in the great scheme of things

[Zane Curtis]

That's why sometimes I wonder about that industry standard formula, because some writers fill the pages up, and some write with a lot of quick dialogue that leaves more open space than print on the pages. Still, 572 pages is a lot of print for a newbie. 'Course, it sometimes depends on the genre. Find out from agents or publishers what they want for your genre.

But this is why the standard is the way it is. It's not a matter of how much or how little space you use on the page, what's important in word counts is the amount of paper the printer will have to use. The 250 words per page thing is a compromise. It gives you a roughly accurate word count and the publisher a roughly accurate idea of how big the actual printed book will be.

[Jasper]

What I mean by the title of my posting is that if I use the MS wordcount function, my total comes to about 80,000 words. However, if I change the font to Courier 12, double space everything and multiply the number of pages by 250 (as I've read here and other places), my word count jumps to over 108,000. That's just a huge difference, and I'm not sure how to reconcile it. What is accurate (or more appropriately, what will be useful information)?

This is my first novel and I'm going to be putting together queries in the next few weeks. I honestly just want to give the agents an accurate word count, but since the numbers are so different I don't know what to tell them. Should I give them both numbers? Can anyone offer up any advice?

Thank you!

[James D. Macdonald]

TNR, 12 pt, 1" margins, chapter started half way down first page.

Try it again with Courier 10 cpi (12 pt).

[James D. Macdonald]

Can anyone offer up any advice?

Jasper, you're trying to tell them how much paper they have to invest in printing the book.

When you're looking at paper:

"No!"

is exactly as long as

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was a dark and stormy night.

[Jaws]

Determining the final printed page count of a manuscript is a bit of a black art, usually involving sacrificing a small goat. The process of "casting off" involves not just the word count, but the average paragraph length, number of chapters, number of illustrations and figures, proportion of footnotes and other nonnarrative text, proportion of block quotations, phases of the moon, and the color of nothingness. Then there are other design considerations, such as the actual length of lines on the page—especially in nonfiction, this varies considerably—end papers (that fancy map—one page or two?), typography, leading, etc.

Most publishers are happy to get within a signature (16 pages) of the final count, even from the fully copy-edited and proofread manuscript. You'd be surprised how much things like hyphenation silently affect the final page count.

The "most reliable" system that I've ever found is a complex Excel spreadsheet that gives several alternate printed lengths, depending upon a few very broad design variables (typeface, size, and leading being the most prominent within a given page layout). It doesn't scale very well, though; its accuracy for works that end up over 320 pages printed is pretty randomized.

[Arkie]

I was in a Borders in Richmon, VA, last week and happened by the science fiction shelf. Richard Jordan, Tor Publishing, had ten titles lined up on one shelf. The page count per title ran from 700 to 850 pages.

[James D. Macdonald]

Robert Jordan earned the right to publish cinderblock-sized fantasies by selling books by the metric ton.

Susanna Clarke earned the right to publish a cinderblock-sized fantasy by being brilliant.

If you're brilliant, or if you're a proven seller, you can do anything.

[Trapped in amber]

I just can't get over the idea I cannot trust MS Word. I feel adrift.

So...I've converted my WIP to Courier New, made sure the margins (1 inch which is hopefully 2.54cm) are correct and the spacing is specifically at 25 lines a page.

But I also remember that I should start the chapter halfway down a page. So do I do that before I get a final word count? And do I do it 12 or 13 lines down?

[James D. Macdonald]

If you must:

Put the chapter number or title on line 12, and start the chapter itself on line 13.

You drop the chapter opening before you get workcount.

A blank half-page in the finished book takes up just as much paper as that same half-page filled with words.

Be guided by this: Ink is cheap. Paper is expensive.

(I'm told that Beth Meacham does castoffs by riffling the manuscript pages next to her ear and listening to the sound.)

[Diviner]

I have been depending on the word count in tools, the margins set at 1" and 25 lines to the page, 12 pt Courier. I thought word count was more of a rough guide to see if the story is manageable, not something cast in concrete.

Am I expected in my query to figure out how many printed pages this will require? Is that part of the submission process?

I understand this is a publisher's concern, but do they expect me to do this for them? Whatever figures I come up with are bound to be inaccurate. I write fairly short paragraphs and lots of dialog. I also have short chapters, so, as it stands, my novel would be paper intensive.

Please enlighten me. I am about to query and submit, so I need a little help.:Wha:

[James D. Macdonald]

Please enlighten me. I am about to query and submit, so I need a little help.

Take the number of your pages. Multiply by 250. Put this number, with the word about, in your query.

[RenaissanceWriter]

Thank you! Thank you! I've been reading on these boards for a while, but I didn't quite get the wc issue. I'm glad I read through this thread because it makes a lot more sense now.

That said, when I was a reporter, we spoke in inches, which seems to make more sense. So, my editor would say, "Hey, JimBob's having a fundraiser. Give him a call and write about 6 inches on it." It may be more difficult to think that way in terms of books, but it makes it easier to conceptualize for me.

Does anyone know if She's Come Undone was Wally Lamb's first novel? I recall that it is, and it's pretty long. I know there was talk about his second novel being 900+ pages and a best-seller (of course Oprah's Book Club helped with that). Was it just that good to get published that long with him a new writer?

Brandi

[Lenora Rose]

Am I expected in my query to figure out how many printed pages this will require? Is that part of the submission process?

No. You are expected to produce a rough word count based on 250 word/properly formatted page. Nothing more or less. Let them decide what it means. And if it's that white-space intensive, there are probably tricks they can pull to cut down the page count.

I write fairly short paragraphs and lots of dialog. I also have short chapters, so, as it stands, my novel would be paper intensive.

It happens. I had a short story jump from 5700 (According to Word) up to 6750 words (according to the standard count) based on short paragraphing, snappy dialogue, and a format that left a lot of white space. And another, with a character more inclined to long paragraphs, go from 12k (according to Word) down to 10k by the 250 rule. Them's the breaks.

[Julie Worth]

No. You are expected to produce a rough word count based on 250 word/properly formatted page. Nothing more or less. Let them decide what it means.

I was accused of lying by one small publisher (who'd apparently never heard of the standard method), so now I say:
80,000 words (@ 250/page)

[GWBailey]

For those of you interested in specific word counts on published novels, here is a link to a site with word counts (Grisham, Rowling, etc.):

http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp

[Julie Worth]

For those of you interested in specific word counts on published novels, here is a link to a site with word counts (Grisham, Rowling, etc.):

http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp

Interesting that Rowling scores a higher reading level than Grisham.

[Diviner]

Take the number of your pages. Multiply by 250. Put this number, with the word about, in your query.


This helps. Thank you.

[RMS]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their questions and answers here! I just read through your posts and they've answered alot of my own questions! I'm just getting started on my first novel. Wish me luck!

[oswann]

Good luck.


Os.

[Liam Jackson]

Much luck to you. Fortune favors the do'ers. :)

[Albedo of Zero]

Word says my ms is about 120,000; format at 250 a page makes mine about 145,000. I use the computer count, not the words but the lines, multiply the lines by 10(average word count per sentence) and this gives me 138,000. This is the number I will use. (but that's me)

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

Im still a bit lost.
You mean that a 160000 wrd ms isnt that big in a publisher's eyes. Its all about the paper? What I find funny, is that most epic fanasy novels have over 600 pgs and about 400 plus words per page. Where as say "Da Vinci code" Had 400 pgs at 225 words a page. Bigger font, less pages. Do the printers just try to get every book to the 400-500 page mark, or is their another system i missed?

So is it just about paper? Maybe thell shrink my print down to make it all fit, i dont know. But after a revison, im still sitting on over 150K. I guess that leaves me a lot of room to be flexible.

[Jamesaritchie]

Im still a bit lost.
You mean that a 160000 wrd ms isnt that big in a publisher's eyes. Its all about the paper? What I find funny, is that most epic fanasy novels have over 600 pgs and about 400 plus words per page. Where as say "Da Vinci code" Had 400 pgs at 225 words a page. Bigger font, less pages. Do the printers just try to get every book to the 400-500 page mark, or is their another system i missed?

So is it just about paper? Maybe thell shrink my print down to make it all fit, i dont know. But after a revison, im still sitting on over 150K. I guess that leaves me a lot of room to be flexible.



"Too long" does depend on genre, but it isn't often you see a fantasy novel by a first time writer that goes over 600 pages. Writers who have proven they can sell can sell much longer novels than can new writers.

But while it isn't ALL about the paper, paper is a big part of the equation. The reason is simple. Most of the cost of publishing is in the paper. Paper is extremely expensive right now. Here's the thing. Roughly four out of five first novels lose money for the publisher. The question is how much money does a novel lose? The answer is that it depends on how long the novel is, and how large the print run is.

Words do not cost money. Paper costs money. In publishing this is expressed by an age old saying: "Ink is cheap, paper is expensive."

Let's say that instead of, oh, 400 pages, the novel has 500 pages. Just to keep round numbers, let's say the print run is a very modest 10,000 copies. Now lets say half of them don't sell, which is not at all unusual for first novels. That extra 100 pages just turned into half a million extra pages. (100 pages x 5,000 unsold copies.) This on top of what you're losing anyway, which may be substantial. And the bigger the print run, the higher the loss will be if the novel doesn't sell.

Writers who sell well do not have this problem, and you can't compare the length of their books with the length of books by new writers. But even with established writers, publishers have a tendency to make the font in very long novels as small as it can be made while still being readable. But if you use the novel of any writer who is selling well as a basis for what publishers want from new writers, you'll be off the mark.

Stephen King, Tom Clancy, J.K. Rowling and their ilk can pretty much use all the paper they want.

New writers have to prove they can sell, and since publishers know that four out of five can't, new writers usually face a paper budget completely unlike what established writers face.

There are, of course, exceptions. Send out a 300,000 word manuscript that lights a fire under everyone who reads it, and you'll be given a lot more leeway. If you can find anyone who will read it at all.

Books that are too short are fattened a bit, not because publishers want to fatten them, but because the reading public tends not to buy books that are too thin. They don't think they're getting their money's worth. If people would still buy them, publishers would print all novels on a single sheet of paper, and charge extra for the microscope.

Printers really don't have much to do with it, and don't have a system. They simply do what the publisher tells them to do, which is centered around keeping costs down and sales up.

[mschannon]

Ah, but "words" are not words. :) "Words" (from a publisher's point of view) is an estimation of how much space the manuscript takes up. For example, a page full of one-word dialogue takes up the same space as a page-long paragraph, even though I guarantee you that paragraph has more words in it.

I like this explanation of how to format to get that mythical 250/page: http://www.passionatepen.com/formatarticle.htm
Thank you for the linkage. It makes this all soo much easier. The word count thing was driving me nuts--and it's not a very far drive.

[Supafly]

This topic might be a little old, but I'm posting anyway. For first time novelists, a book's length might be important, but if you are already published, the length should not matter. If you are creating your story based on what others want, then you are all wrong. You dictate the story and where it goes, and how long it takes to complete.

I may have a problem with this...my first novel is part one of five, and it runs about 550 pages. Its not published yet, because I'm running through it for editorial reasons. My next one, not part of the same series right now, is going to be about 1500 pages (I'm on 1243 right now, and at nearly 600,000 words) single spaced 12 font. It should not matter how long a book is. The context of the book should dictate that. If it is an epic adventure with sprawling locations and tons of characters, it should be long.

I keep seeing 250 words per page here...how can you fit so few words on a page? What font and size are you using? I multiplied the number of pages I have (1243) by 250 and I got 310,000, but there are twice that many words in my book. Is there some kind of special way to do it?

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

Let me tell you, if i see a book on the shelves thats 1500 pages, no matter how good the story is, if its not seperated into 500 page novels, i dont think i could read it. Hell, the whole bible is just under two thousand in a lot of prints. I think that the "reader", may not want to take up such a gargantuan read, just in the same as you may not want to read the whole bible, in the same way you would read a novel, dedication to back cover.

True, the whole lord of the rings series is a massive read, and maybe thats what you have. But i dont think even robert hordan could realese a 1500 pg ms and get away with it.

That said, "Story trumps all". So i hope that you prove me wrong.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

i dont think even robert hordan could realese a 1500 pg ms and get away with it.

That would be Robert Jordan, but im sure he hordes a bit too.

[Supafly]

Technically, it is a book with three separate parts. The first one is about 350 pages, which is basically made to show how all the characters come to meet and start the real adventure that is the basis of the book. The last part is about 300. Now...the middle section, which is the adventure the main core of characters take together, is almost exactly 1000 pages. I have been thinking about releasing them separately, but it just seems a little funny to have two average sized novels and then one massive one. I will probably end up dividing them up anyway, but as of right now, it is one single work.

Actually, funny you mention it, my book is a lot like the bible, except it has action and the philosophy is INFINITELY more interesting. There are excerpts on my site if you check it out. Its on my profile. Note, there are some errors in it because the text is the original from about a year ago, and I'm too lazy to work on the HTML right now.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

my book is a lot like the bible, except it has action and the philosophy is INFINITELY more interesting.

That is up for debate.

[Supafly]

Yeah ;), but people have actually told me this.

[aruna]

I've read that publishers look askance at unpublished novelists submitting anything over 100,000 words. I just finished my final draft, and, using the formatting suggested above, I come up with 143,000! It's not, of course, but 250 words x 572 pages...

Is this a serious problem?#

Not if you've got a book that needs that space.
My first novel was well over 100k. It got published; by five different publishers.
Just don't worry about words: write the book that needs to be written, then cut out the flab.

[aruna]

Can someone tell me how you get those icons beneath your names? I avn't find the place to add them. Also, I tried to posta smiley but it didn't work. Any advice?

[Supafly]

You mean the avatar? Just choose edit avatar from the User CP tab. What I can't figure out is how to upload custom ones.

Why are so many people worried about length of the book? Just take as much space as you need to tell the story. I can't see why so many people think books have a preset length.

[Mike Martyn]

You mean the avatar? Just choose edit avatar from the User CP tab. What I can't figure out is how to upload custom ones.
.
Check the Faqs section. If all else fails, then post someting in the Newbie section and they take pity on you and upload it for you. worked for me!

[Supafly]

Okay, unlike some people *cough cough* I don't spend twenty three hours a day online in forums, so lets not get into that topic of discussion.

[scribbler1382]

Okay, unlike some people *cough cough* I don't spend twenty three hours a day online in forums

That's why there's a FAQ. :)

[Roger J Carlson]

But while it isn't ALL about the paper, paper is a big part of the equation. The reason is simple. Most of the cost of publishing is in the paper. Paper is extremely expensive right now. Here's the thing. Roughly four out of five first novels lose money for the publisher. The question is how much money does a novel lose? The answer is that it depends on how long the novel is, and how large the print run is.I would think that shelf space is an issue too. If a book is three inches thick, a bookstore might only order two, whereas if it was only 1 1/2 inches, it might order four. This is especially true in mass market editions that go to grocery stores and the like, where the shelf space is extremely tight.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

Can someone tell me how you get those icons beneath your names? I avn't find the place to add them. Also, I tried to posta smiley but it didn't work. Any advice?

I got to edit mine after i hit 50 messages.

Oh, amd by the way, im back. Uncle Sam just moved me again, thi stime for better. Gotta love the service.

[trebuchet]

I've read that publishers look askance at unpublished novelists submitting anything over 100,000 words. I just finished my final draft, and, using the formatting suggested above, I come up with 143,000! It's not, of course, but 250 words x 572 pages...

Is this a serious problem?


Thank you! I feel so much better now. I'm not the only one in this boat!

My word count right now is about 159,000 words (courier 12 WP count). I'm trying to cut it to 150,000 words, but I don't see any way to do it but take away from the story. I rely a lot on dialog, and this business of the # pages dictating word count scares the bejeezus out of me. I don't think I want to know. :O

Well, I'm off to find some more darlings to murder.

[alanna]

I keep seeing 250 words per page here...how can you fit so few words on a page? What font and size are you using? I multiplied the number of pages I have (1243) by 250 and I got 310,000, but there are twice that many words in my book. Is there some kind of special way to do it?

Are you double spacing?

[jules]

I started wondering how many words there were in "average" novels, and how much difference to the count the 250 word per page rule made. And the I realised that I had everything I needed to do a little experiment: Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/) has the text of thousands of classic novels available to download, so I could get accurate counts and format them up however I wanted.

Here's the results with a few classics from their top 100. Counts include the Project Gutenberg headers on the documents, which are roughly 1,750 words accurate count and 2,000 based on page count.


Accurate 250page Title/Author
28,455 30,750 Alice's Adventrs. in Wonderland/Lewis Carroll
124,562 128,000 Pride & Prejudice/Jane Austen
163,307 153,000 Dracula/Bram Stoker
207,116 212,250 Crime & Punishment/Fyodor Dostoevsky

Quite a range, but we see that 200k is a big novel by most people's standards, and that the 250 words per page rule is actually pretty accurate, generally giving an overestimate (probably due to the usage of white space) but on one occasion giving an understimate (for Dracula); presumably this book uses an above-average number of short words (a quick look at file sizes and assuming one space character per word gives 4.3 letters per word, rather than 4.7 for Pride & Prejudice and 4.5 for Crime & Punishment). It's interesting that the 250 word per page estimate is (I believe) based on an average of 5 letters per word, and all 3 of these come out below that.

[tammay]

Ah, but "words" are not words. :) "Words" (from a publisher's point of view) is an estimation of how much space the manuscript takes up. For example, a page full of one-word dialogue takes up the same space as a page-long paragraph, even though I guarantee you that paragraph has more words in it.

I like this explanation of how to format to get that mythical 250/page: http://www.passionatepen.com/formatarticle.htm

Sharon, thanks for the link above. According to these guildelines, my manuscript is 89,500 words :hooray: (http://www.passionatepen.com/formatarticle.htm). I've always had a huge problem getting a decent word count (as I'm more used to writing less than more, or even enough!) with the word count on the 'puter, and that's always hindered my revision process (made me anxious to keep adding subplots, scenes, etc...) At least now I know I can really focus more on the story and what works with this number in mind.

Tam

[aruna]

Sharon, thanks for the link above. According to these guildelines, my manuscript is 89,500 words :hooray: (http://www.passionatepen.com/formatarticle.htm).
Tam

I get the opposite results.... With MS word, I have approximately 175000 words. Using that method, I have a page count of 811 and a word count of (swollow!)
202750!
Yes, I tend to write loooong books....

[Paul J. Andrew]

Wow. I had no idea the word count thing was such an issue with publishers. But then, I am the newbie. This thread has been very informative and it's given me a bit of an idea on where I need to keep things in line with my current WIP.