Total no-no to switch POV?

This question got overlooked when it got posted in the Ask Jason and Derek thread, I thought maybe it deserved its own thread.

Personally, I don't like the sound of this, in a first person novel. It feels like a big cheat.

Unless you fudged things so your MC is drifting and delirious, and hears stuff people think he can't hear. "Don't worry, he's out cold, I put knock-out drops in his wine. Now our secret plan can proceed..." Or something along these lines.

-Derek

If the book is written in first person, I'd say it's a definite no-no to suddenly switch pov for one scene in one chapter only.

Derek's suggestion is the only one I can think would work.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the above. Multiple POV is fine and often used. But if you are using another POV just for one scene in a first person POV, I am afraid it might make the reader think, "Oh! the author didn't know how to handle this bit..."

Do you truly need this other person's POV? I'm sure you'll be able to find another creative way to bring out the info.

If not- how important is this other character to the story? Would it help or hinder the story if you also had them as a POV? (not just for one scene, that is)

From the description given, I'd consider it an info dump. If the entire book is in first and one chapter in the middle goes into third to give information the viewpoint character can't see, it raises a flag and says "Notice me!"

So, options ...

Blindside the character with the information and create a new conflict. The character was out cold and didn't know, but his best buddy didn't tell him. Later MC finds out and feels betrayed. Or runs into trouble because he doesn't know.

Drops hints afterwards that something happened while the character was out, and no one will tell him. That way, you feed the reader enough that they're also asking the questions and feel the character's frustration.

I read an excellent book, Face of Death by Cody Mcfadyen. Cody does most of the story-telling through the MC via first person; however, he switches periodically to the POV of one of the crime victims - and does that in first person also.

I thought it was an excellent book. So...if you do it right, it's possible. It's not a total no-no. But in first person, I doubt there are many people that can pull it off. not saying you can't. Just saying I think it'd be hard.

I just finished "The Woods" by Harlan Coben where he switches from 1st person POV to 3rd omni periodically. The first switch confused me, but then I looked forward to them as the author did a great job in fitting them in.

So, it can be done, but I don't think it's possible to get away with one and only one switch just for info dumping.

sapphire41026 said:

Is it a total no-no to switch the POV? I do have a reason for it. When the MC is out cold, there is a ton of important information, but should I find a different way to get in this information? I was thinking about it today, and I wanted to ask. I've seen it done between multiple MCs throughout entire books before, but I only used it once in the second chapter. The rest of the book would be in first person.

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Do whatever you need to do to tell your story--just don't confuse the reader with what you choose to do.

I've seen what you're proposing done in published books before and it's worked. Just keep it interesting and don't confuse anyone.

Good luck with it.

Dont do it. For reasons listed above, switching just in order to "make a section work" seems contrived. If there is information you need to get out, then consider other ways (thats part of the fun in writing actually).

Just my few cents

qwerty said:

If the book is written in first person, I'd say it's a definite no-no to suddenly switch pov for one scene in one chapter only.

Derek's suggestion is the only one I can think would work.

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If you want to do it, go for what works.

Don't avoid POV shifts just because it's first person. I mean, there's this book, Frankenstein had multiple POV shifts and it's all first person.

But if you want to hear my opinion. I don't think you shouldn't. If someone is plotting something against your main character, then let your MC find out some other way, otherwise your readers wouldn't be as surprised as they should by the time the suspense happens. If your MC uses some astral projection or some sort of psychic power to find out the info, then the reader might feel cheated.

Look up my thread called POV cheating. It's in the BWQ forum.

It depends how you handle it. Especially if it's only for one chapter. Normally, I'd say avoid that kind of thing until you've had lots of practice and experience. You might be able to make it work, but it's got to be pretty damn good, and there's got to be a good reason for it--and "to keep telling the story while my MC is out cold" doesn't quite do it for me...you need to do something important there, IMO. Make sure it's a character the reader won't feel really jarred to suddenly hear narrating. One of the books I've read that handles this quite well is The History of Love by Nicole Krauss. The MC's little brother has been acting quite strangely for a long portion of the novel, and his sister has noticed this. Then, one chapter is a section of the brother's journal, which illuminates why, and pushes the plot forward to the ending.

I am struggling with this situation right now myself in my own WIP.

I did NOT read Jurassic Park, but I recall glancing through it when it first came out (back in the early 1990's I think -- I was working as a housekeepr for Mr. & Mrs. W that summer and they had the book in their living room. I found it and took a brief stroll through it during my lunch break). And IIRC, that book shifted POV constantly. But it didn't change voice (whast I mean is it didn't change from 3rd Person to 1st Person and back again). Instead it remained as 3rd Person all throughout, but kept changing frpm one character to the next.

Can anyone vouch for that one?

If it DID shift POV, what do you guys think of the manner in which it did so?

My current possible strategy is to have ONE character as my MAIN 1st Person voice, and then sometimes shift around to have other characerts pipe up with their own 1st Person (but only sometimes).

Is that too jarring?

Plot Device said:

I am struggling with this situation right now myself in my own WIP.

I did NOT read Jurassic Park, but I recall glancing through it when it first came out (back in the early 1990's I think -- I was working as a housekeepr for Mr. & Mrs. W that summer and they had the book in their living room. I found it and took a brief stroll through it during my lunch break). And IIRC, that book shifted POV constantly. But it didn't change voice (whast I mean is it didn't change from 3rd Person to 1st Person and back again). Instead it remained as 3rd Person all throughout, but kept changing frpm one character to the next.

Can anyone vouch for that one?

If it DID shift POV, what do you guys think of the manner in which it did so?

My current possible strategy is to have ONE character as my MAIN 1st Person voice, and then sometimes shift around to have other characerts pipe up with their own 1st Person (but only sometimes).

Is that too jarring?

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Not at all. I've read tons of novels with:
a. different third person POVs
b. different first person POVs
c. different first and third POVs

As long as the writer can do it smoothly, it's fine.

My objection to the OP was that they wanted to change POV just for one scene. I wrote my reason for objection in a post above. But I'll add to my original thought that it doesn't hurt to try. Write it out and see if betas find it a cheat or not.

I would never tell a story in first person and then switch for just one scene. That one scene is then going to stand out like a sore thumb. You're going to jolt the reader who has become involved with your point of view character and then, as soon as they adjust to the idea of multiple narrators and start to expect to see mutliple views now, you're going to yank it away. If you were going to use multiple viewpoints periodically like other people mentioned, that would be one thing. But to just switch for one scene in the entire book? I think that would be too awkward. Why do you have to switch? Can't you get the information across in some other way (like using some of the suggestions above)?

Plot Device said:

And IIRC, that book shifted POV constantly. But it didn't change voice (whast I mean is it didn't change from 3rd Person to 1st Person and back again). Instead it remained as 3rd Person all throughout, but kept changing frpm one character to the next.

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That is how most of Crichton's books are.

James Patterson goes from first person and then switches to 3 person omniscient. It works for him. His main characters in two of his books:

Kiss the Girls and Along came a Spider, pulls you in to the story and then he switches to 3 person and then returns to first person quite often BUT it's at the chapter break and ONLY at the chapter break.

Cassiopeia said:

James Patterson goes from first person and then switches to 3 person omniscient... BUT it's at the chapter break and ONLY at the chapter break.

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I think that's key: if you're going to play with POV, do your readers the courtesy of a chapter break, however you decide to handle it.

Don't do it. When you become James Patterson or Nelson DeMille (he does it too) then you can, but anything you do to remind the reader that they're reading words, instead of involved in a story, is not a good idea. Shifting POV away from 1st person would be a real jolt to the reader. It's one of the limitations of 1st person.

A good example of use of 1st and 3rd person is "The Poet," by Michael Connelly. He stays in 1st person when the MC is on the hunt, but {by alternating chapter breaks} he uses 3rd person when the antagonist is either alone or committing his nefarious deeds.

Michael Connelly and the big writers can get away with "breaking the rules." I'd still recommend against it until one gets established.

Michael Connelly and the big writers can get away with "breaking the rules." I'd still recommend against it until one gets established.

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I'd say the primary rule not to break is to stick with whatever works best.

If it comes in the middle of the book out of nowhere, then no, I wouldn't do it. But if you establish early that this is a voice in your novel, then I think it can be okay. You set the rules of your book, but you need to establish those rules from the beginning. Otherwise, it's too jarring.

There's only one real rule in fiction writing: keep your readers interested and turning pages.


Everything else is just different ways of doing things. And there are many, many different ways of doing things, POVs being one of them. Just because people do it THAT way doesn't mean you have to follow. But best practices are always good to learn. Still, you have to find your own ways, appropriate for your own stories. Just remember the one true rule: keep your readers engaged.

maestrowork said:

There's only one real rule in fiction writing: keep your readers interested and turning pages.
.

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I could be wrong. But that's why we have these rules, to keep those readers engaged, and not confuse them or irritate them. The question is how we can keep them reading, how not to confuse or irritate them. Maybe that's what those rules are for. and that's why I have my book "How not to write a novel." It's written by an editor of the Washington Post. I couldn't stop reading it.

The rules don't protect you from confusing your readers. They are guidance, but you can still break the rules and engage your readers. Clarity is not inherent in the rules, but in the ways the author weaves his words and structure. Shifting POVs have been done over and over again without confusing readers; but they've also been done with great confusion.

Point is, there are no rules against shifting POVs, but you have to understand why you're doing it, and how you can use it to engage your readers, instead of confusing them. Simply "following the rules" are not going to help you.


Like someone said, "it depends on how you handle it." What I'm saying is, there are no rules against shifting POVs. And there are so specific rules about clarity and confusion. That's why we are writers, we have to figure this out on our own, and use our beta readers.

I think many new writers are too obsessed with the rules. Sure, you should learn the rules and understand why they're there, but you also need to be flexible -- instead of hanging on the rules like "if I follow them, I'll write a great novel," you have to understand the concepts behind these rules and use those concepts instead. The analogy I often use is "cooking." You can talk about rules like "it has to be baked at 425 degrees for 28.5 minutes" or "it has to be 1 tsp of salt..." or you can try to understand the concepts behind these rules and adapt to your own recipe. If you follow the recipe to the T, you duplicate something. Nothing wrong with that. But if you learn the concepts and adapt, you make new and wonderful things. That's when you become a chef, and not just a cook.