using software to edit your MS

RJK · Aug 4, 2008

Somewhere in Uncle Jim's thread, someone posted a link to Autocrit. I ran a portion of my MS through the wizard and found a bounty of errors that I would have missed, had I manually edited the story.

I've read the propaganda on the site and think that the Professional level membership may be worth it FOR ME.

My question is, has anyone had any experience with this product? If you have used the program, what do you think about it. Does it work as advertised?

I am the kind of person who, if faced with a large pile of dirt and having the choice of shoveling it by hand all weekend, or paying a backhoe operator $100 for an hour's work, it would be a no-brainer for me to fork over the $100. Therefore, I'm really not interested in a discussion about the merits of editing by hand vs letting a program do it for me. :Soapbox:

Shadow_Ferret · Aug 4, 2008

Personally, I hate manual labor and getting my fingers dirty. I'm lazy that way. But I'm also cheap. And a skeptic. Those two trump my laziness.

This will NOT replace your need to edit your manuscript. It might find some of those errors it claims it can, but you will STILL have to edit your manuscript yourself.

Or pay someone else to do it. But a program CANNOT replace HUMAN editing. It will not make your manuscript submission ready.

ChaosTitan · Aug 4, 2008

I've never used them, nor would I, but after glancing through the things they say the program does, I'm very curious. How does a computer know if your pacing is off or not? Computer programs can only do what their human programmers tell them to, so this program will only tell you things based on the perception of its creator. Her perception of pacing (which frankly, is different for books based on genre and intended audience) may not be the same as yours.

ETA: This post isn't intended as an argument against computer programs, persay, just as a discussion of the merits of this particular program.

maestrowork · Aug 4, 2008

Can a computer write a good novel? Not yet.

So why would you let a computer edit yours?

lostgirl · Aug 4, 2008

I've never used it. And while it could be a useful tool.. it's just a tool. You would still need to go through and edit after, I would think. So while it could be a part of your process to help you get the smaller details you would've missed.. I think it should only be a step -- not the begin all end all in your editing process.

But I'm cheap.. for me that's what my critique partner and betas are for.

RJK · Aug 4, 2008

I should qualify my first post. I, in no way expect this program to do all the work for me. I will still print the MS and go through it with my red pencil (usually twice). What I find exceptionally helpfull with this software, is that it highlights the errors. As an example:

One of my frequent errors is repeated words or phrases. This program finds them, highlights them, and allows me to fix the problem. This is the kind of error that I often miss when editing.

Responding to Titan's post, I had the same question, thus my original post.

ETA Response to Maestro: Can powertools alone build a house, no, but I sure wouldn't want to build one without them.

sunandshadow · Aug 4, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
I've never used them, nor would I, but after glancing through the things they say the program does, I'm very curious. How does a computer know if your pacing is off or not?

I know nothing about this particular program, but if I were trying to design a program to make educated guesses about pacing I would have it look at average sentence length per paragraph and per scene. Also the proportion of dialogue to narration. Any section that varies a lot from the average in either of these traits is likely to have a different pace - which might be a good thing or might be a bad thing, rather than having the program actually suggest changing it I would just have it flag the section as something for the writer to consider whether the pacing was inconsistent or not.

Williebee · Aug 4, 2008

I've never used it. But, now that you brought it up, I'm going to give it a drive-by just to see what it does.

I'm not sure I believe that a computer program is going to be able to pick up all of the rhythms and pacings that the human reader does.

Sounds like a fun experiment.

let us know how it works for you, please.

C.M. Daniels · Aug 4, 2008

I played around with it for a bit and wasn't terribly impressed.

JeanneTGC · Aug 4, 2008

This is a complete personal opinion based on nothing but the general information (ie: I've never used the program). Ignoring all the other good reasons against already listed, I would be concerned that the computer program would remove the "voice" of the piece. By their nature, programs don't 'think', they do what they're programmed to do. And if your writing voice doesn't conform to what was programmed in, then I would see it being very much at risk of the program taking it out.

blacbird · Aug 4, 2008

Without having experienced this software, my immediate reaction is that it seems like a crutch for the non-lame. Editing is a developed skill, even an art, as much as writing is, and the only way to get better at it is to do it yourself.

caw

sassandgroove · Aug 4, 2008

I would think I'd miss things using software I'd catch on my own, and also the software would tell me something was wrong that wasn't. I can't speak to this software but I wouldn't want to be so far removed from the process. If it works for you great!

Matera the Mad · Aug 4, 2008

Problem is, software doesn't read novels. It just scans patterns. Beta readers are a lot more fun to talk to anyway.

*shrug*

Wolvel · Aug 4, 2008

If you want a robotic story feel free to use it.

Personally I tried it and it was a waste of time.

Ziljon · Aug 4, 2008

RJK said:
My question is, has anyone had any experience with this product? If you have used the program, what do you think about it. Does it work as advertised?

Well then. I guess no one has used this software but everyone has a very strong opinion about it. How refreshing.

blacbird · Aug 4, 2008

Ziljon said:
Well then. I guess no one has used this software but everyone has a very strong opinion about it. How refreshing.

I haven't used penis-enlargement pills either, but I have a definite opinion about them, too.

caw

JeanneTGC · Aug 4, 2008

blacbird said:
I haven't used penis-enlargement pills either, but I have a definite opinion about them, too.

caw

Touche!

qwerty · Aug 5, 2008

RJK said:
One of my frequent errors is repeated words or phrases. This program finds them, highlights them, and allows me to fix the problem. This is the kind of error that I often miss when editing.

Okay, so I haven't used this software either (or the hard ware mentioned above) but I do have an opinion for what it's worth.

RJK, if you are already aware of this particular frequent error, shouldn't you consciously look for it when you read through? Having a programme to spot it for you seems non-constructive in the aim to improve your writing or your own editing skills. Surely the one is synonomous with the other.

qwerty - putting head below parapet

maestrowork · Aug 5, 2008

The tool is only good if you already know what you're looking for, or if you already understand what it's looking for. To me, it's more useful as a learning tool ("oh, that's what redundancy means -- I kept using the same word, sometimes three times in a sentence"; "Oh, I tend to use a lot of -ly words"). But I can't think of any software that can help you with the heuristic process of editing -- it's not really a science or step-by-step task. Things such as pacing, word choices, plotting, etc. or cliches and run-on sentences can't be tracked by software. You can edit for style either.

For me, if you don't already understand these concepts of editing, these tools are not particularly useful anyway. And if you're already familiar with them, then they can be useful for doing the first few passes -- finding all the repetitions, for example. But they still won't help you with pacing, plotting, cliches, etc. So to me, the tools stops being useful beyond simple copy editing.

RJK · Aug 5, 2008

For those doubting Thomases, I would suggest you go to the site, paste in a 1000 words or so from your WIP, and see how the program works. It costs nothing to try it.

As Maestro guessed, the program is an excellent copy editor, and as with all new tools, it makes the process move much faster with less drudgery.

ETA: I must add, that I have many of the same questions that many of you have expressed in this thread. That is why I asked for input from anyone who has actually used the software. Either no one in this forum has paid the $100 membership fee, or if they have, they aren't talking.

windyrdg · Aug 5, 2008

To me writing, good writing, is all about word choices. A character can be bad, or sinister. A bad guy can a crook, or a shyster. Etc, etc. I can see computerized copy editing, but the rest is art and art comes from the heart and soul.

san_remo_ave · Aug 5, 2008

RJK,

I can't comment on the program, as I haven't tried it either.

However, why don't you give Roger J Carlson's website a looksie? He has several little tools that might accomplish the same things you're looking for from the other site... for free....

*Passive Word Highlighter
*Preposition Highlighter
*Adverb Eliminator
*Word Frequency Counter
*Phrase Frequency Counter

I haven't tried these yet, either, but the price sure seems reasonable!

Tiergan · Aug 5, 2008

Speaking of tools. I transfered my novel to a writing program called ywriter. It does a lot of the same things you seem to be looking at. how many times you use each word, looks for adverbs, and such. Also it has a great feature called story board that shows each scene, whose POV and you can tell istantly where you are lacking or have fallen into a certain charater too much. Tells you the percentage of the book that is through a certain character's POV, how many scenes. It takes a little bit to get running but, it has been worth it.

Its available at www.spacejock.com , I also got yreader, which reads the manuscript back to you, helps catch some of those things we as writers natrually overlook rereading our manuscripts for the thousandth time.

RJK · Aug 5, 2008

Thanks San Remo. I've looked at Roger's macros before and, although I didn't install them, I've used the concepts behind them to search and highlight. You wouldn't believe how many times I had to re-write sentences with 'that' in them.
I'm using Word 2007 and I'm not sure if Roger's macros will be compatible, but in either case, they were helpful.

In response to those commenters who insist that manual drudgery is the only way to learn the 'art.' I disagree. When a program highlights all the 'ly' words for me, I still need to re-write the sentence or phrase. How on earth is it better that I take hours of painstaking 'edit reading' to find these words, when the computer can do it in a second.

For those who believe that the software is somehow, re-writing your novel, I just don't have an answer for them. The software points out things that ARE COMMONLY CONSIDERED TO BE ERRORS. It doesnt change your novel.

ETA: Tiergan: I downloaded Ywriter and looked at it. With all due respect to Spacejock and thanks for his free software, the lack of documentation sort of turned me off. Now that you remind me, I think I'll take another run at it with my current WIP. I haven't seen Yreader yet, I'll have to look into it.

qwerty · Aug 5, 2008

RJK said:
For those doubting Thomases, I would suggest you go to the site, paste in a 1000 words or so from your WIP, and see how the program works. It costs nothing to try it. . . .
Either no one in this forum has paid the $100 membership fee, or if they have, they aren't talking.

I haven't paid the $100 membership fee but, at your suggestion, I have now pasted 997 words in to get a free feed-back. What I discovered was that I used the words "she said" twice in slightly less than 1K words. Suffice it to say I'm not unhappy with that. I also discovered I said "the gift I'd been given" twice. That's okay too because that was a deliberate emphasis on those words.

I discovered my sentence length varied from 2 – 35 words, and I was given this hint:

“Sequences of sentences of about the same length can get dull to read.
Look for sections with several sentences of similar length and reword to increase the readability.” As my average sentence length was pretty well varied, I reckon I’ve covered that one.

Apparently, I exceeded generic descriptions by 0.1%, and the use of the words: feel/feeling/felt and see/saw by 0.1%

So, what have I learned? Not a lot, actually.

Sorry, doubting Thomas that I am, I still prefer to rely on my own editing to get the best I can out of my own pieces of writing. Judging by what I got for free, I'd certainly be reluctant to pay for any further service.

using software to edit your MS

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

Court Jester

Around

Fear the Death Ray

Always Watching

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

Impractical Fantasy Animal

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.

Cinnamon, sit. Bad fish!

I *am* Catwoman...and Gini Koch

Sassy haircut

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Write the Damn Book!

Tortilla di Patate

I *am* Catwoman...and Gini Koch

exiled Brit

Fear the Death Ray

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

New kid, be gentle!

Back at it

'tis the magic that binds us

Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says:

exiled Brit

I am Catwoman...and Gini Koch

I am Catwoman...and Gini Koch