The Villain.

Cato · Aug 1, 2008

I was wondering if I needed a villain for my fantascifi novel. I'm about 10k into it. There is conflict for sure, and antagonists, but there's no archetypal sole "Villain". I kind of want to incorporate one but I'm not sure if it'll work/fit. I think after seeing The Dark Knight I'm even more inspired to create a villain with style, like the Joker.

How important is the villain to a novel? I know that in LOTR even though Sauron is the evil dude, the confrontation isn't really Frodo and Co. vs. Sauron. Maybe that's why I wouldn't consider Sauron a good villain at all. I'm not sure.

rainboy · Aug 1, 2008

The best villain is still Hannibal Lecter. By a landslide. Just wanted to put that out there.

dwellerofthedeep · Aug 1, 2008

It is my opinion that, while a novel does not need a villain, making the antagonist a character of importance is an easy way to spice up the conflict. Natural or non-individual forces can antagonize, but personality can be added with the right villain.

I usually spend a lot of time on villains in my stories, but for the book I'm writing now there is no single personal antagonist. It still works, but idea of the villain is something that always interests me the more so I'm not likely to write this way often.

It depends on the kind of story you're telling. Having a villain makes some sort of personal confrontation inevitable, I suppose, so keep that in mind.

Danger Jane · Aug 1, 2008

Not at all a requirement. There are all kinds of conflicts and all kinds of characters--two or more of them can certainly clash in a major way without strictly being hero versus villain. The X-Men movies do a great job of this because you can really understand where each "side" is coming from, even if you probably lean toward a certain one.

Ageless Stranger · Aug 1, 2008

My villain doesn't appear until the last few chapters of my story and even then, he is very mysterious and known only by his alias. Throughout the story my MC faces those he has manipulated however.

And in my new story, my villain appears on the third page though it is not revealed that she is in fact, the villain. The story decides when your villain will appear and your theme, characters and plot will decide who your villain is.

MicheleLee · Aug 1, 2008

You don't need a villain to have conflict. People disagree, even violently, all the time. Some of the worst conflicts continue because both sides are in a way right and in a way wrong. Not to mention sometimes good people do bad things.

Telstar · Aug 1, 2008

dwellerofthedeep said:
It is my opinion that, while a novel does not need a villain, making the antagonist a character of importance is an easy way to spice up the conflict. Natural or non-individual forces can antagonize, but personality can be added with the right villain.

Good advice

SPMiller · Aug 1, 2008

I usually write stories with villains. It's nice to have a single character on which my protagonist(s) can focus for the resolution of the story's primary conflict. There can be any number of lesser antagonists, sure, but I put a lot of effort into making memorable villains. I give them strong personalities, believable motivations, and distinctive voices.

Mind you, in my stories, villain is rarely synonymous with evil. I'm one of those nasty grey-morality writers.

And when (if...) the protagonists finally overcome that villain, victory is all the sweeter for being hard-fought against a worthy and fully-realized opponent.

dawinsor · Aug 1, 2008

I think conflict over good vs good is deeper than conflict over good vs evil. So no, I don't think you need a villain.

kuwisdelu · Aug 1, 2008

dawinsor said:
I think conflict over good vs good is deeper than conflict over good vs evil. So no, I don't think you need a villain.

Like SP was saying, though, the best villains are often the ones who aren't clearly bad. Even someone you love to hate, like the aforementioned Joker, you can sympathize with to some extent, because when he talks, you realize hey...that makes perfect sense. And you have to prove him wrong.

Anyway, most of my stories don't have villains. They're not necessary for good conflict. If you're not sure if it will work, or if you try it and it doesn't work, or you just can't see your story with a villain, you don't have to include one. Whether you have a villain or not, the important part is conflict. It doesn't matter with whom or what that conflict is.

Of course, great villains are a lot of fun.

smoore · Aug 1, 2008

I think you've answered your own question. To me a villain can be one person, a group of people, or a whole culture e.g. millions of aliens on the other side of the galaxy. If you take Niven's Man/Kzin wars as a whole, for example, the fierce Kzins are the villains, collectively, but in each short story or novella (these have been written by many authors) there is usually one mean kitty representative of the whole kitty culture.

As for the Dark Knight, what made it great for me was Batman's struggle not to lower himself to the Joker's level. The special effects and Heath's great performance were bonuses, but the first thing was the real plot element.

Hollywood does get it right sometimes! Another example is Bladerunner, perhaps the best sci-fi movie ever made. There we don't even know who the real villain is until almost the end--and Hollywood made it much more dark and interesting than Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" At the time of the movie you could imagine LA being that way in the future!

Danger Jane · Aug 1, 2008

kuwisdelu said:
Like SP was saying, though, the best villains are often the ones who aren't clearly bad. Even someone you love to hate, like the aforementioned Joker, you can sympathize with to some extent, because when he talks, you realize hey...that makes perfect sense. And you have to prove him wrong.

Anyway, most of my stories don't have villains. They're not necessary for good conflict. If you're not sure if it will work, or if you try it and it doesn't work, or you just can't see your story with a villain, you don't have to include one. Whether you have a villain or not, the important part is conflict. It doesn't matter with whom or what that conflict is.

Of course, great villains are a lot of fun.

Totally. I can't say I've written a villain in the last few years...maybe not even since I was twelve. I have characters that could easily be seen as villains from another perspective, maybe, or characters that have in the past been seen as villains...but they aren't in my versions. Neither are the people they come into contact with.

The Joker's logic was one of the creepiest things about him. That and the tongue-tick really...creeped me out...

geardrops · Aug 1, 2008

The typical conflicts are:

Man vs Man

Man vs Nature

Man vs Self

Sort out where yours falls. That'll answer your question.

kuwisdelu · Aug 1, 2008

Also Man vs God

Zoombie · Aug 1, 2008

In other words, Man vs The Author.

SO!

Villains...

In my YA sci-fi romance comedy action adventure drama, the main characters are shot at and chased by a character that actually turns out to be heroic and the *real* villain dosn't arrive till the last chapter.

but boy oh boy, is he evil.

And then he becomes the love interest in the sequal. wtf...

My brain is broken that way.

But, anywho, you can have plenty of action without any real villain. In fact, I once read a really nice WWII book that had characters from every side, so no one was really "the bad guy"

Other than...Hitler. But he wasn't a view point character nor met personally by any of the view point characters.

dwellerofthedeep · Aug 2, 2008

Zoombie said:
But, anywho, you can have plenty of action without any real villain. In fact, I once read a really nice WWII book that had characters from every side, so no one was really "the bad guy"

Other than...Hitler. But he wasn't a view point character nor met personally by any of the view point characters.

Emphasis mine, and, heh, heh. I whole-heartedly second this post, and move that the analogy in bold is hilarious.

I think that with a change of venue people like Stalin and Mao might be up there with Hitler as far being bad from every angle.

DeleyanLee · Aug 2, 2008

What the story needs is a moment when the reader KNOWS that the hero has won and the main storyline is complete. Having a character who is the villain get defeated is a classic way of signifying the end of the story.

While Sauron was the force of evil, I wouldn't say he was the villain of LOTR--Tolkien didn't need a villain because the point the main storyline ended was when the Ring went into the lava in Mt. Doom. He told the readers right up front that that would be the end of the story, after all.

As long as you fulfill that story necessity, it doesn't matter how you do it--so do what fits your story and seems like the most fun.

~grace~ · Aug 2, 2008

One of the main points of my stories is that there is no villain. We may start thinking someone's the villain, but by the end we realize either that a) everyone is the villain or b) nobody is the villain or c) the MC/hero is the villain (it is a shock to him as well).

as long as there are forces pulling in different directions there will be a story.

maestrowork · Aug 2, 2008

Villains are not required. In fact, I'm kind of bored with books with well defined, archetypical hero and villains. I tend to write stories without clear villains (as opposed to antagonists; two different things) -- sometimes people are just people.

That said, some genres may require them (fairy tales, for example).

Danger Jane · Aug 2, 2008

maestrowork said:
Villains are not required. In fact, I'm kind of bored with books with well defined, archetypical hero and villains. I tend to write stories without clear villains (as opposed to antagonists; two different things) -- sometimes people are just people.

That said, some genres may require them (fairy tales, for example).

Only if you want them to

Cato · Aug 2, 2008

dwellerofthedeep said:
I think that with a change of venue people like Stalin and Mao might be up there with Hitler as far being bad from every angle.

Yeah, all communists are evil. Especially Mao Zedong /sarcasm.

SPMiller · Aug 2, 2008

Cato said:
Yeah, all communists are evil. Especially Mao Zedong /sarcasm.

Mao Tse-Tung is an excellent example of an evil man, actually. It's trivial to lay millions of deaths at his feet. Are you in the PRC or something? I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim he wasn't a monster and I'm more than a little shocked to see this.

Melenka · Aug 2, 2008

maestrowork said:
Villains are not required. In fact, I'm kind of bored with books with well defined, archetypical hero and villains. I tend to write stories without clear villains (as opposed to antagonists; two different things) -- sometimes people are just people.

What Ray said. Moral ambiguity can be just as powerful (if not moreso) than classic villainy. If someone is on the other side of my hero's gun, he's the villain, and he fits the profile well. If the hero is not flawed, I am not interested.

If you're writing a quest novel, then you don't need a real villain, though some sort of opponent is useful. The obstacles to fulfilling the quest (much as in LoTR) provide plenty of conflict. Those obstacles can be created or enhanced by the "bad guys", but it works better if they're a group with a mission, just like your group, with just as much investment in winning.

dwellerofthedeep · Aug 2, 2008

Cato said:
Yeah, all communists are evil. Especially Mao Zedong /sarcasm.

Stalin's killings > Hitler's killings
Mao was similar to Stalin in how he controlled China, and yes, his policies killed millions of people.

I didn't mean to say all communists are evil, but I mentioned Mao because I recently learned some horrible things about him. I wouldn't consider any dictator to be truly communist, personally.

On topic: This just goes to show how anyone could be seen as good/bad/in between. Stalin isn't really a whole lot different from Ghengis Khan except in time, but I think Ghengis is generally underrated as a leader, not that there are a whole lot of facts influencing that.

JoNightshade · Aug 2, 2008

Cato said:
Yeah, all communists are evil. Especially Mao Zedong /sarcasm.

I'm going to make a broad generalization here and say any leader who orders the mass killing of a million of his own people is, by definition, "evil."

The Villain.

Master of Puppets

Electric Alien Fish Machine

Dave Brubeck kicks your ass.

I create people

Prodigiously Hanged

Dorothy A. Winsor

Revolutionize the World

Good thing I like my day job

Revolutionize the World

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Master of Puppets

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