Christian Fiction needs to learn from Christian Music

ToddWBush · Jul 30, 2008

I'm 31. I was born in Mississippi, the heart of the Bible Belt. When I got to that glorious age when I could buy my own music, I was already a strong member of my Baptist church's youth group. We'd been listening to "contemporary christian music" for a while, so I went out and bought cassette tapes put out by "contemporary christian artists." But, I still listened to so-called secular music as well, mainly because it sounded better. Since I had always been a rock fan, I listened to a lot of rock that was popular back then like Gun 'N Roses, Poison, Bon Jovi, etc.

The Chrisian music I was buying at the same time in the late 80's and early 90's was... well... ok, let's be blunt: they got the words right and the message right, but the music was pretty much "I want to poke my ear drums out" bad. There's a reason why I was embarassed to play it in front of my non-churchgoing friends. It wasn't me being ashamed of being a Christian, it was that the music itself was so horribly bad.

Now, however, the Christian music industry has figured it out: inspirational lyrics + great music = lots, lots more sales and lots, lots more people reached. Enter bands like Thousand Foot Krutch, BarlowGirl, The Afters, Red, and my favorite, Skillet, just to name a few. These bands' musical style rivals (and in some cases surpasses) their secular counterparts. And their album sales are higher than anything Christian music has ever seen, as are the amount of people touched by said music.

But here's a little thing that isn't mentioned very often... they rarely mention anything "Christian" in their lyrics. Instead, they focus on making the lyrics inspirational, or dealing with real issues. For instance, Skillet has been widely criticized for the video for their song "Savior" (deals with child abuse) and their song "The Last Night" (addresses suicide) because they aren't uplifting and talking about standard Christian themes and issues. The band has taken flack for addressing these depressing topics, but they have brushed off these complaints by saying, in essence, Christ didn't stay in church, or just talk about PC things.

Christian fiction publishers that say "edgy" issues aren't what they are looking for are perhaps missing their purpose, not as publishers, but as Christians. If a writer makes their book inspirational, but far, far, far from preachy, and tackles real world issues that real lost people deal with, then they should be pushed as hard, if not harder than the "softer" Christian fiction books.

Perhaps I'm not making much sense, but when I see someone say that their book hasn't been picked up by a CBA agent and the reason given is "it's not Christian enough..." then perhaps the CBA has missed the point. I really think that what is called "edgy" Christian fiction needs to be the fiction that we as Christians send out into the world more than the softer stuff. We want to witness to the lost and bring them to the light that is Christ, don't we? Appearing preachy, goody-goody and "holier than thou" is a surefire way of driving those who need the message of Christ off as fast as possible. But appealing to their problems, their issues, and them as people in a way they relate to is a good way to win more to the Cross. The Chrisian music industry is doing it; it's high time the book selling undustry did as well.

Comments are welcome, especially if I am off base.

Gravity · Jul 30, 2008

I hear you, Tod, but take heart, things are changing. I know: I'm proof. My three, pretty violent Joe Box novels (featuring a barely-saved PI with a lot of baggage) were published by a mid-sized commercial CBA house, and garnered some nice reviews. So as I said, things are changing.

ToddWBush · Jul 30, 2008

Joe, I fully intend to pick up your first Joe Box novel soon (currently swamped with getting ready for the start of my first school year in teaching AND coaching).

It's good to hear that things are indeed changing. I see some of the conventions and requirements for CBA and ECPA stuff and it disturbs me. Guess what, all people who are Christians aren't pure as the wind driven snow, and we all mess up. If we, as writers, were to emphasize the mess-ups and the redemption we receive from Christ, rather than making our characters virginal and perfect, then perhaps we'd draw in more regular readers.

Norman D Gutter · Jul 30, 2008

Todd:

I grew up in Rhode Island, in the rock 'n roll era. I knew nothing of evangelical Christianity, and was not saved until senior year of college, and had no introduction to Christian music, other than the hymns of the liturgical church, until I married a Christian girl a couple of years later. When Christian artists embraced rock style music, I couldn't accept it any more than I could secular rock music. I have never heard of the groups you mentioned. It seems you and I are in separate audiences for music.

As far as Christian fiction goes, the problem is a huge audience that is already Christian exists, and buys books at a rate the exceeds the general audience, so authors and publishers are working to feed this market. These book buyers (I'll call them the "nice audience") don't want the edgy stuff. My wife would not buy or read a book that was edgy. She wants a Christian story, with the conflict devoid of violence, language, steamy adult themes, etc. I'd be more open to that kind of thing, and I'm more part of the "edgy audience".

So publishers are, I believe, struggling on how to service the "nice audience" while at the same time expand services to the "edgy audience", an audience that is currently of an unknown size and possibly has to be created. For if some consumer in the "nice audience" mistakenly buys a book intended for the "edgy audience", that consumer might never buy a book from that publisher again. Or so the theory goes. I agree with you that Christian fiction should explore new themes. Convincing the "nice audience" to buy/read them will take time, as will finding and building the "edgy audience".

You raise another point, however, in the discussion of music and the lack of quality as it moved into new areas. Christian fiction needs to continually increase quality. I think we sometimes focus on the importance of the message, and forget that the message needs to be conveyed in the highest quality way.

Best Regards,
NDG

PattiTheWicked · Jul 30, 2008

Just FYI, my brother in law is the founder of a Christian rock band that's pretty popular in his region. I'm not even Christian, and *I* enjoy their music -- because it's good.

Ultimately, that's what the issue is with fiction of any sort. If it's not good, no one will want to read it, no matter what the message is.

JoNightshade · Jul 30, 2008

I don't even think there should BE a category called "Christian fiction." I think by creating one, we've essentially isolated ourselves and reduced our literary impact on the world to zero. After all, who reads Christian fiction? Christians. Who writes Christian fiction? Christians. Now any novels that include Christians or Christian themes get shunted into the "Christian fiction" section, where they must comply with the, frankly, asinine requirements - or simply not get published. Congratulations, we've weeded ourselves out of the mainstream market. We've given up our influence on literary culture.

Yes, maybe it is changing, and that's good. But I wish this category didn't exist at all. Personally, I want to be a "Christian writing fiction," not a "Christian fiction writer."

Incidentally, just to make an analogy off of what you were saying about edgy versus safe, I sort of see it like the difference between, for example, the shows Monk and NYPD Blue. I love both of these shows, but if you asked me which one had more moral depth, more impact on my life, and more deep spiritual content, I'd have to say NYPD. Monk is a fun, light show - but they are careful to keep things nice and never too horrific. Even their sets are very clean and beautiful. None of the places people get murdered are grimy. To me, after a while, it just feels fake. NYPD, on the other hand, often sickens me with its depicitions of murder, violence, and just people being repulsive. But because they are willing to "go there," they grapple with some really intense issues - which often become spiritual in nature. Questions like "How, how, HOW could God let something so horrific happen to a child?" I watched an episode last night where this was sort of the theme, and in the end nobody had any answer - but at the same time, they realized that the only way to survive such atrocities is to simply throw yourself at God. Needless to say, Monk may address such things superficially, but it never gets to the heart of the matter. It's fluff. I like it, but I don't feel like it has lasting spiritual value.

I see the Christian fiction market restraining everyone to "Monk-status."

sassandgroove · Jul 30, 2008

Where do I start? I LOVED Rock when I was a teen. My mom, bless her heart, tried to steer me towards Christian Rock. Frankly, it sucked. It was mediocre. It didn't matter what the message was, the music wasn't good. As a young adult I worked in a Christian bookstore for a few months. It had a section with music. I was appalled at how much of it was mediocre. Yes there are gems and things are improving, but still... It made me angry because if you are using the gift God gave you to GLORIFY GOD, then it would be good. It indicated to me that these people had found a market - small but almost guaranteed- and tapped into it instead of doing it to glorify God.

I think it isn't just about the message though. In music and fiction, it should be about quality over anything else. Things get published because of the message, but the message isn't going to get across if it lacks quality.

Beyond that, I think Norman makes a good point. There is a market for both. I think it is ok to have stuff just for people who are already Christian as well as stuff that reaches out to minister to non Christians. Both are valid. The question then becomes how to do you reach out wtih Christian stuff to non Christians. I had a discussion once with a guy about U2. They are Christians who happen to be in a band, instead of being a 'Christian Band'. We talked about which was better, being a 'Christian Band' or being like U2. I think both are valid. U2 reaches a wider audience becuase they are marketed as secular. But it is also good and right to make music that ministers to people who are already Christian.

heyjude · Jul 30, 2008

JoNightshade said:
I don't even think there should BE a category called "Christian fiction." I think by creating one, we've essentially isolated ourselves and reduced our literary impact on the world to zero. After all, who reads Christian fiction? Christians. Who writes Christian fiction? Christians. Now any novels that include Christians or Christian themes get shunted into the "Christian fiction" section, where they must comply with the, frankly, asinine requirements - or simply not get published. Congratulations, we've weeded ourselves out of the mainstream market. We've given up our influence on literary culture.

I think Christian fiction as a category has a place in our world. There are people who like to feel safe, to know that they can crack a book without being assaulted by violence, sex, and swear words. Personally I find it a little bit boring, but I do understand the need for that kind of entertainment.

I am a Christian writing secular thrillers. My stuff would never make it in the Christian market (and may never make it in the secular market either, but for different reasons, haha). But it has an underlying message that is clearly Christian without beating the reader over the head. That's the kind of stuff I'm interested in.

Gravity, my first Joe Box was shipped this morning--can't wait!

Roger J Carlson · Jul 30, 2008

Good and bad (whether in music or literature) are relative terms. I happened to like the Contemporary Christian music of the 80s and 90s. I didn't care if the secular music world thought it sucked. I liked it. When 2000 hit, for some reason, I didn't like any of it anymore.

Now, all you can find in the CBA stores are the kind of Christian music that I don't like. That and the stuff put out by the Bill Gaither Conglomerate. So where is the music for me? Apparently my tastes don't matter.

I'd hate to see the CBA turn all edgy without continuing to cater to those who like their fiction "nice".

sassandgroove · Jul 30, 2008

Roger, I have a feeling what you liked wasn't what my mom was trying to get me to listen too. I know there was good contemporary Christian music in the 80's, but the Chrisitan rock music that was alongside the secular rock (as in cheesy 80's like Poison) wasn't as good as the secular rock. That's what i meant. And along with the good stuff in general there is a lot of mediocre. Glorifying God will not produce mediocre, in my opinion.

Gravity · Jul 30, 2008

heyjude said:
Gravity, my first Joe Box was shipped this morning--can't wait!

Thanks, Jude. I hope you like it!

And let me add this to the mix. While I'm far from a CBA "insider" (I've only been at this ten years), I've found out a few interesting things in that time (through sheer osmosis, if nothing else).

I may have mentioned I've attended the Glorieta conference for the past seven years, and was on teaching staff there the last three. It was on those latter gigs that I found myself hanging out, after hours, with some of the really top dogs in the industry. I'm talking editors and agents both. What they all are saying, behind the scenes, is that--for good or ill--the days of the Christian bookstore as an entity may be over.

In other words, the apocryphal tale of the incensed liittle old lady bringing a book back to a store, and then having that store cancel their agreement with the publisher, while true, may be done. Why? Three words: big box stores. Now that the CBA has made inroads in having their wares stocked in Wal-marts, Costcos, Targets, and so on, the power of that incensed liitle old lady has faded. All those bigger stores care about is increasing profits (and let's face it, so do we), and to do that, they need to move merchandise. A lot of merchandise. That's why the bar is being raised in Christian fiction, just as it was in Christian music.

I think it's refreshing. And way overdue.

sassandgroove · Jul 30, 2008

Is that why Christian Bookstores sell a bunch of non bookstore stuff, like figurines and mugs and candles and magnets?
Sorry, it's off subject, but Gravity made me think of it.

Gravity · Jul 30, 2008

sassandgroove said:
Is that why Christian Bookstores sell a bunch of non bookstore stuff, like figurines and mugs and candles and magnets?
Sorry, it's off subject, but Gravity made me think of it.

That's exactly why, Sass. If you go to my agent (Chip MacGregor's) website (www.macgregorliterary.com), on latest his blog he talks about the last ICRS show, held just a couple of weeks ago in Orlando (whiich was where the deal was cut for my first JB novel back in 2003, but that's another story). Read his entry. It's eye-opening stuff. (Caution: once you start reading one of his blogs, you'll find yourself reading the others, and losing an hour or two--but gaining a lot of solid info--in the process.)

CACTUSWENDY · Jul 30, 2008

It is a sad note....but I don't think you will find many Christian Publishers that will chance to market what Christians read. IMHO....

They have this idea that Christians will only buy stuff that 'preach'. I think the mainstream publishers give you a better shot then the Christian Publishers do. At least mainstream is not afraid of offending someone.

Again...just my two cents.

ToddWBush · Jul 30, 2008

Wow, I didn't know I was going to start a real discussion, rather than a minor blip in the AW universe! I feel special.

I'd like to respond to several posts, if I may.

Norman D Gutter said:
You raise another point, however, in the discussion of music and the lack of quality as it moved into new areas. Christian fiction needs to continually increase quality. I think we sometimes focus on the importance of the message, and forget that the message needs to be conveyed in the highest quality way.

Norman, thanks for your outstanding reply. That's exactly the point I was making. I know someone later on said they like the "contemporary christian music" of the 1980's and wished it would come back. But my point was, getting the message right in a book (or music) is something to strive for, yes. But not at the expense of the quality of the presentation. Which is what that music, in my opinion, did. Apparently, according to some of you who've read more recent Christian fiction than I have (my re-dedication was very recent), this is already happening.

heyjude said:
But it has an underlying message that is clearly Christian without beating the reader over the head. That's the kind of stuff I'm interested in.

Exactly, heyjude. I'm already thinking about how to re-write my previous novel to make it more Christian... or starting over on the adventure novel I've started or the serial killer one I've just gotten the idea for and turning them into somewhat Christian-themed stories.

CACTUSWENDY said:
They have this idea that Christians will only buy stuff that 'preach'. I think the mainstream publishers give you a better shot then the Christian Publishers do. At least mainstream is not afraid of offending someone.

Wendy makes a good point... I know a lot of Christians who read a LOT who couldn't name a Christian fiction writer (and that includes the guys who wrote the "Left Behind" series) if their lives depended on it. But you ask them to name fiction writers besides the biggies of Grisham, Clancy, King, etc. they'll rattle off their personal favorites, like Connelly, Thor, Evanovich, and others.

The point I was making is, it's good that CBA is attempting to get their products into the bigger stores, because that's where book buyers are. And book buyers are the people we want to not only reach, but read our stories that we think the world needs to hear.

Gravity · Jul 30, 2008

Tru dat.

III · Jul 30, 2008

I've always been frustrated by Christian media which, at best has lagged 10 years behind the mainstream and is often 30 - 40 years behind. Even the good media tends to be just "on par" with mainstream media and true trailblazing is either excessively rare or (more likely) never gets a fair shake in the Christian marketing establishment.

Christian Music - The fact that we still have to use the word "contemporary" to distinguish it means it's not contemporary. I'm glad millions of folks enjoy it and are ministered to, but it's definitely not my cup of tea. Even the best Christian rock bands do very little for me. But there are the precious handful like DC Talk, Steve Taylor, Barnabas, King's X who were musically innovative and wrote deep, challenging lyrics. But in general, I see the Christian music scene as still being 10 - 20 years behind.
(btw Todd, my kids and I listen to the Red CD all the time.)

Christian TV - Need I say more?

Christian Movies - Every once in a while it becomes en vogue for Hollywood to make Christian movies, but they're still few and far between. Most "Christian" movies are straight-to-video.

Christian Comedians - One of the sweetest pains, like packing salt into a mouth blister, is watching Christian comedians. Some people find them funny but I find them excrutiating in an irresistable way. If I'm flipping channels and Bananaz comes on, I'm glued to the tube.

Christian Fiction - Go to any size Barnes & Noble and at most they'll have three racks (usually two), 90% of which are Ted Dekker, Left Behind, Bodie Thoene, and Frank Peretti. Sadly the same is true of Christian bookstores as well. It's not so much the lack of "edginess" that bugs me as the lack of variety. I'm sure there's some great Christian fiction floating out there somewhere, so how about clearing out a few copies of Desecration: The Antichrist Takes The Throne - Left Behind #9 to make room for the new stuff? Oh yeah, the whole profitable business thing.

So yeah, nothing would make me happier than to see a full revolution in Christian media in my lifetime. Lord knows it's not that there's a lack of talent.

CBumpkin · Jul 30, 2008

IMO, "contemporary christian music" is no different from today's rock and popular music. (Very few exceptions.) Most of it is just as secular. Many of the lyrics sung could be about anything. The great shame of Christianity today is that we've adopted and conformed to the world's ways of doing things and imitated their ways in order to bring relevance, acceptance and "coolness" to the gospel, church, Jesus and Christianity. It used to be that the world followed the church's example but that's been turned around.

Christian music, including much of what many churches call "worship services" is nothing more than a performance on a stage. In many churches, you can't hear any voices over the loud banging drums and screeching guitars. People are swaying and dancing, not like King David did before the Lord, but as if they were at a concert. Instruments should be an accompaniment, secondary to the voices of the saints worshipping God.

Yes, naturally, there are exceptions, but in today's seeker-sensitive, entertainment-driven, American cultural christianity performance churches, very, very little of what goes on in them honors God. There is no reverence for a holy God, no fear of the Lord. Instead of lifting each other up and rising to God's level, we've brought Him down to ours. We've made God in our own image instead of conforming to His.

Where is the preaching of repentance? Church has become politically correct and dares not risk offending anyone with anything "negative" because giving and attendance may go down -- and it's all a numbers game for them or they're a failure and a new pastor is brought in.

I'll say it again. Many, many of the people who call themselves Christians today are not. Churches and conferences boast of the number of "decisions" they received for Christ or how many people are born-again and baptized in the Holy Spirit. Oh really? Where is the power of God, then? If America (and the UK for that matter) have all these millions and millions of born-again, spirit-filled Christians, as the people claim to be, where is the power of God in changed lives? There were only 120 in the upper room and nations were changed with thousands brought to repentance just from them stepping out of the room.

What we have in many of our churches today is a christianized form of humanism, but it's still humanism and just as damning. Matthew 7:14, "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." According to people today, you'd think the overwhelming majority were Christian because they claim to be. It's just not so.

Who do we think the scriptures are talking about later on in Matthew 7:21-23?

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

It's not a matter of "Do you know God?" but "Does God know you?" Christian music artists are not exempt from this. Just because a person, a music label or a publishing house calls themselves "Christian," doesn't necessarily mean that they are. (That's why we must learn to discern.)

Mr. Fix · Jul 30, 2008

This is good news...

Gravity said:
I hear you, Tod, but take heart, things are changing. I know: I'm proof. My three, pretty violent Joe Box novels (featuring a barely-saved PI with a lot of baggage) were published by a mid-sized commercial CBA house, and garnered some nice reviews. So as I said, things are changing.

I'd like to write with christian themes in my stories, as that's what I believe, but I often have some 'darker' issued things (maybe 'edgy' is a better way to say this) that I'd like to write as well.

Something to keep in mind (for publishers) is the theme of 'Job' in the Bible.

III · Jul 30, 2008

CBumpkin said:
Christian music, including much of what many churches call "worship services" is nothing more than a performance on a stage. In many churches, you can't hear any voices over the loud banging drums and screeching guitars. People are swaying and dancing, not like King David did before the Lord, but as if they were at a concert. Instruments should be an accompaniment, secondary to the voices of the saints worshipping God.

Yes, naturally, there are exceptions, but in today's seeker-sensitive, entertainment-driven, American cultural christianity performance churches, very, very little of what goes on in them honors God. There is no reverence for a holy God, no fear of the Lord. Instead of lifting each other up and rising to God's level, we've brought Him down to ours. We've made God in our own image instead of conforming to His.

I understand what you're saying, but that's a pretty sweeping judgment you're passing based on external observation. How do you know what's going on in the heart of people participating in contemporary worship services? If that's the type of music that touches those people and allows them to express themselves, why is it inheriently inferior to "high worship"? Many people don't feel spiritually engaged or inspired by singing hymns with a pipe organ.

I think it's largely a generational difference, but I don't think any particular "form" of worship is inheriently better or worse. It's all about the heart. Personally, I can't get into worship that's performance based or where I have to jump around and clap, nor can I get into worship that's tedious like many of the old hymns. My deep worship happens when I'm sitting on my back porch with my guitar at night, just singing to God, but I'd never say any of those other styles of worship aren't real worship. They're simply not my preference. We're all wired differently.

And as for transformation and power, I don't think it's a result of a worship service, it's the result of personal relationships, sacrifice, and devotion to God, regardless of how you spend 30 minutes a week singing or how loud the instruments are.

Deb Kinnard · Jul 30, 2008

Gravity said:
the apocryphal tale of the incensed liittle old lady bringing a book back to a store

Two comments, no, three: I've been trying wherever possible to find out the actual numbers of "returns due to content" and nobody has been willing to say how often this actually happens, or even if.

I have a bunch of post-grad hours in statistics, so if someone tells me, "Oh, this happens all the time," I want to know how often it happens. I want numbers.

Yes, you're right -- I'm not going to get numbers.

This urban legend is not backed up by statistics anyone will offer me, so I'm going out on the tip-branch and say that the legend is untrue. Little old ladies do NOT take books back to bookstores based on content, at least not in quantities that ought to affect the market at large.

If someone has any sort of even ball-park number to support this saying, I'd welcome it. But I don't think it's out there. ("The truth is out there!")

Secondly, there are groups of readers/writers who are coalescing around this edgy thing. There is a blog called Edgy Christian Fiction writers. The Lost Genre Guild for writers of Christian spec-fic is a good hangout for those who write in this ballpark. I can envision additional pressure being put on the traditional "nice" market to expand, in order to cover readers' tastes along a wide continuum of Christian-friendly fiction.

Third, CBA is no longer the only game in town. Christian bookstores are in the process of going extinct, or limiting their wares to the stuff Chip MacGregor calls "Jesus junk." This is fine--I'd rather have my books compete at Borders or B&N than in the local Family Store. CBA/ECPA was and is a niche market anyway, because there are publishers out there who will simply not play the restrictive game CBA-types seem to want.

My take. :e2woo:

Gravity · Jul 30, 2008

Deb Kinnard said:
Third, CBA is no longer the only game in town. Christian bookstores are in the process of going extinct, or limiting their wares to the stuff Chip MacGregor calls "Jesus junk." This is fine--I'd rather have my books compete at Borders or B&N than in the local Family Store. CBA/ECPA was and is a niche market anyway, because there are publishers out there who will simply not play the restrictive game CBA-types seem to want. My take.

And a darn good one, Deb!

CBumpkin · Jul 30, 2008

III said:
I understand what you're saying, but that's a pretty sweeping judgment you're passing based on external observation. How do you know what's going on in the heart of people participating in contemporary worship services? If that's the type of music that touches those people and allows them to express themselves, why is it inheriently inferior to "high worship"? Many people don't feel spiritually engaged or inspired by singing hymns with a pipe organ.

I think it's largely a generational difference, but I don't think any particular "form" of worship is inheriently better or worse. It's all about the heart. Personally, I can't get into worship that's performance based or where I have to jump around and clap, nor can I get into worship that's tedious like many of the old hymns. My deep worship happens when I'm sitting on my back porch with my guitar at night, just singing to God, but I'd never say any of those other styles of worship aren't real worship. They're simply not my preference. We're all wired differently.

And as for transformation and power, I don't think it's a result of a worship service, it's the result of personal relationships, sacrifice, and devotion to God, regardless of how you spend 30 minutes a week singing or how loud the instruments are.

I agree that personal relationship and devotion are important (and although sacrifice plays a part, I would substitute "obedience" in this case.) But, so is worship.

It's not just based on my opinions and my observations, although that is the case of my experience. These are issues raised by many people in the church. It has been for years. Even if they were just my opinions, the fact remains that there's a lot truth in it.

You're right, I don't know their hearts. But, with all due respect, neither does anyone so it's not a valid point to use in anyone's defense. It can only provide an enablement for people to continue doing wrong, after all, "You don't know my heart!" Regarding the heart, Jeremiah 17:9 says, "The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?" So, it's not a matter of heart at all, but fruit. We can see their fruit and many of these churches are filled with dead men's bones. It's not the heart that matters most. God said to all the seven churches in Revelation, "I know your works..." not heart.

John 4:24 says, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." We worship in spirit and in truth, not from the heart. Look at the verse before it, vs 23, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." Again, worship is about what is pleasing to God, honoring Him, not men.

I'm not a works-oriented person, so I'll clarify that before that's said. Salvation is not a matter of works, but that statement is used in the extreme, often implying that works aren't important. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

We were discussing music, so that's what that portion of my post is referring to. Worship isn't something that's designed to please people, but God. Worship is for God, not us. I agree that it doesn't have to be an organ and a hymn. (However, when you compare the lyrics of hymns to today's contemporary lyrics, you have wholly different music.) If we were in the middle of the jungle with a tribe of natives who were born-again, we should be able to join in true worship together with them, even if they just used two rocks smacking together. It's in the spirit of worship we join them. I'm not saying that instruments are bad. I'm saying that when those instruments overpower the voices of the saints, I disagree with that. That's worldly because it imitates and follows the world's example and it's a stumbling block to true worship.

Respectfully, I don't believe the generational argument plays a big part in it, personally. It's cultural. The generational gap, regarding music, is only common in recent history, with the advance of technology and knowledge.

CBumpkin · Jul 30, 2008

Deb Kinnard said:
Third, CBA is no longer the only game in town. Christian bookstores are in the process of going extinct, or limiting their wares to the stuff Chip MacGregor calls "Jesus junk." This is fine--I'd rather have my books compete at Borders or B&N than in the local Family Store. CBA/ECPA was and is a niche market anyway, because there are publishers out there who will simply not play the restrictive game CBA-types seem to want.

My take.

I can't speak for the edgy content. That's something between the writer and God. My part comes in by choosing whether or not to read it. I'm not prissy or prim and proper. I'm not a legalist either. But I am picky about what I allow into my eyes and ears. (ETA:I've heard it said that whatever we read or listen to, we're forcing the Holy Spirit to read or listen to it, too. That made an impression on me.)

I know quite a few little old ladies who return books, including "christian" books, back to the bookstore because of the content. I'm not a little old lady, but I have no qualms returning a book that contained content offensive to me and it wasn't hinted at on the jacket.

As for the paragraph I quoted, I agree with you. Many "Christian" bookstores are going under and they can't compete. They're prices are much higher than secular bookstores and I agree with Chip MacGregor in that much of what they sell is "Jesus junk." I, too, would rather have my books competing in Borders and Barnes & Noble.

ToddWBush · Jul 30, 2008

Deb Kinnard said:
Secondly, there are groups of readers/writers who are coalescing around this edgy thing. There is a blog called Edgy Christian Fiction writers. The Lost Genre Guild for writers of Christian spec-fic is a good hangout for those who write in this ballpark. I can envision additional pressure being put on the traditional "nice" market to expand, in order to cover readers' tastes along a wide continuum of Christian-friendly fiction.

I'm a member on ECF, Deb, thanks for the suggestion! I'll look up Lost Genre Guild tomorrow.

Third, CBA is no longer the only game in town. Christian bookstores are in the process of going extinct, or limiting their wares to the stuff Chip MacGregor calls "Jesus junk." This is fine--I'd rather have my books compete at Borders or B&N than in the local Family Store. CBA/ECPA was and is a niche market anyway, because there are publishers out there who will simply not play the restrictive game CBA-types seem to want.

My take.

This is brilliant, and SOOOOOO true. Here's hoping that they realize it in time and convert to the way we are all writing.

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