Legality of retellings

MumblingSage · Jul 28, 2008

Okay, the title might sound a little more serious than it acutally is...or maybe not. I don't know how serious it might be, which is why I'm asking.

Suffice to say, I'm a fan of Akira Kurosawa's movie 'The Seven Samurai' (and as my signature attests, other versions of it, too). So mostly for fun, I wrote a sort of retelling in my own fantasy world. There are similarities, but not very stridant ones (I have seven warriors defending a village from bandits, but there aren't perfect copies or analogs of the original samurai, for example). But the plot is obviously not mine.

Since this story was made for fun, it's not a big deal, but could it ever be possible for me to publish this story? If not, would that be because it's technically not my story (therefore a legal issue), or simply because it would be a boring, already-told story?

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 28, 2008

The script for The Seven Samurai is still protected by copyright, so you cannot publish any derivative works without permission from the copyright holders.

freezer burned · Jul 28, 2008

George Lucas didn't get permission from the creators of "The Hidden Fortress" before making "Star Wars," did he? And what about Quentin Tarantino, who supposedly steals from every movie/television program he ever liked to make his movies? I could be completely wrong, but I think it all comes down to how obviously it can be seen to be derivative of "The Seven Samurai." If it's really obvious, then it sounds like it would be a no-go, but perhaps some tweaking could fix that.

Matera the Mad · Jul 28, 2008

Plots are not copyrighted -- they can't be, since the best ones are already stolen from myths that spring from the hidden depths of the human mind.

Kitty Pryde · Jul 29, 2008

Well, "A Bugs Life" and "Battle Beyond the Stars" both have the "Seven Samurai" plot. The story is changed significantly (cartoon bugs, spaceships, etc.), and no one had a problem with it. "Magnificent 7" and "Samurai 7" are authorized remakes because they obtained permission to make them. I think the main question is how close is your version to the original? What does yours do different? What does your version bring that the original didn't have?

ideagirl · Jul 29, 2008

Kitty Pryde said:
Well, "A Bugs Life" and "Battle Beyond the Stars" both have the "Seven Samurai" plot. The story is changed significantly (cartoon bugs, spaceships, etc.), and no one had a problem with it.

If no one had a problem with it, that's probably because the makers of A Bug's Life and Battle Beyond the Stars got permission from the copyright holder first.

The fact that a movie (or book) derived from some previous movie/book/etc. exists has nothing to do with whether it's legal for you to copy some previous movie/book/etc. Anyone can make a derivative work if the copyright holder gives them permission.

MumblingSage · Jul 29, 2008

Thanks for the ideas, all.

In the end, the most obvious fact that this is drawn from Seven Samurai is the fact that there are 7 of them. And the fact that they're defending the village from bandits. As I said, the characters themselves aren't much like the originals, since obviously they all have new names, and I switched some genders.

So (this still being mostly hypothetical since it is a for-fun story), if the only thing similar is the plot (7 warriors are hired to protect a peasant village from bandits), is it still too close for comfort?
And would changing it to 8 warriors help?

(Don't worry. Even if the answer to that last question is 'yes', I won't do it just for the sake of being different.)

Don MacDonald · Aug 13, 2008

God. No-one mentioned The Magnificent Seven? For shame.

edit: I now realize that Kitty Pryde mentioned it only 3 posts above. The shame is mine!

Mumbling, The Magnificent Seven is a retelling of The Seven Samurai in a western setting, with cowboys instead of samurai. You should rent it. Speaking of Kurusawa, Ran is a retelling of King Lear. Retelling and reframing iconic stories is a time honored tradition, but you'll have to do more than switch names and genders if you want your work to stand apart.

Another one: Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? is a retelling of The Odyssey. Okay, I should stop now.

kuwisdelu · Aug 13, 2008

From what you said, I'd be hesitant to try to publish it. Usually, I just ask "is there enough difference between the works to truly make the work unique enough to call your own and set it apart as having literary merit distinctly different from the original"? But in this case, it's a tough call. Honestly, I think it depends how much the copyright holders of The Seven Samurai would care, and if they would notice it. You could be fine, but if they're in a bad mood, they could come after you. I don't know. There are lawyers who specialize in the publishing biz, and some of them may give you free phone-call consultation. If you can find one, you could call one up and ask how you would be from a legal standpoint.

This is why when I do re-tellings, I stick to Shakespeare.

The Otter · Aug 13, 2008

ideagirl said:
If no one had a problem with it, that's probably because the makers of A Bug's Life and Battle Beyond the Stars got permission from the copyright holder first.

I really doubt they did.

People rip off each other's plots and ideas all the time. Eragon and its sequel ripped off the plot of Star Wars. Countless other fantasy writers (including some highly successful ones) have ripped off Tolkienn. D&D also ripped off Tolkienn (the only difference being that they changed "hobbits" to "halflings.") They all got away with it because they added some original elements, but the influence is still obvious. I really doubt they all got permission. That sort of borrowing happens so often that an original premise is the exception rather than the rule.

Copyright law exists to protect specific works, not general ideas. The idea of a group of warriors protecting a village from bandits is an extremely general one, so if that's the only similarity, you have nothing to worry about. If it makes you feel safer, then change the number of warriors (though I'd go fewer rather than more). I doubt anyone will even make the connection.

Beach Bunny · Aug 13, 2008

This is a good question and one that I have been wondering about myself. In general, can someone describe the fuzzy line in the sand that you can't cross over without infringing on someone's copyright?

CynicalRyan · Aug 13, 2008

Beach Bunny said:
This is a good question and one that I have been wondering about myself. In general, can someone describe the fuzzy line in the sand that you can't cross over without infringing on someone's copyright?

Not without case law, I guess. The line is fuzzy, because it can't be made clearer.

The work (i.e. novel) has to be 'original' at least, and sufficiently independent.

But: IANAL, and mostly knowledgeable in German Urheberrecht (similar, but not the exact same, to copyright law in the English speaking world).

maestrowork · Aug 13, 2008

While the actual treatment and story is copyrighted, the idea is not. The Seven Samurai has been reimaged many times. Now, I don't know if they actually bought the rights to adapt it (The Magnificent Seven or A Bug's World, for example).

Shar-Jan · Aug 13, 2008

Seven Samurai has been retold all over the place as has already been mentioned. Bare in mind that Kurosawa was not the person who first made it up (I know it came before in the legend of the 42 Rohnin), but the idea of a rag tag band of noble warriors fighting for the good of a bunch of those unable to is as ancient as ideas of honour and chivalry.

As long as you don't have characters called Kyuzo, Kambei, Kikuchio, Gorobei etc you'll be fine. But of course you can use elements of those characters, as long as its not obvious.

And for gods sake don't make one of them fight the great last battle wearing the top part of a suit of armour and a thong. That was just weird.

dpaterso · Aug 13, 2008

I'm just saying, I recall an issue of White Dwarf (RPG magazine) some years back printed a wargame scenario with an accompanying short story where 7 Viking warriors had to protect a village... the leader of the Vikings was Sven so the story title was "The Magnificent Sven" which I thought was a clever twist with a nod and a smile to the original source(s). When I saw The 13th Warrior years later based on Michael Crichton's novel, I couldn't help but wonder...

It's finding the twist that takes the story off in its own direction with its own characters that's the trick.

-Derek

IceCreamEmpress · Aug 13, 2008

The Magnificent Seven's producers did purchase remake rights from the original screenwriters of Seven Samurai.

As for the others? Well, plot elements can't be copyrighted, as said before. In the US, one of the fundamental issues is whether something would infringe on the original's exploitation rights--i.e., if someone would buy the similar product instead of the original. Clearly nobody would buy A Bugs Life instead of Seven Samurai, and if Kurosawa's estate and that of his co-screenwriter had brought suit, a strong argument could be made that the plot-borrowing was parody in any case.

MumblingSage · Aug 14, 2008

Shar-Jan said:
And for gods sake don't make one of them fight the great last battle wearing the top part of a suit of armour and a thong. That was just weird.

Oh, CRAP

. You don't let me have any fun at all.

I'm just saying, I recall an issue of White Dwarf (RPG magazine) some years back printed a wargame scenario with an accompanying short story where 7 Viking warriors had to protect a village... the leader of the Vikings was Sven so the story title was "The Magnificent Sven" which I thought was a clever twist with a nod and a smile to the original source(s).

That sounds cute. Well, as cute as anything involving Vikings can be.

Thanks for the answers, everybody. If nothing else, they're food for thought.

Legality of retellings

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

freezer burned

Bananas, good sir. Bananas.

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

ideagirl

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb

Don MacDonald

kuwisdelu

Revolutionize the World

The Otter

Friendly Neighborhood Mustelid

Beach Bunny

The Provocative One

CynicalRyan

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Shar-Jan

dpaterso

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IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb