Does your main character HAVE to save the day?

BlueLucario · Jul 28, 2008

I wrote the end of the book. Lily could have beat the bad guy(Wes), avenging the death of a very close friend, and also for taking advantage of what she was programmed to do. But there was another person who thinks the bad guy has put him through a lot more crap than anyone else. The bad guy killed both his parents and his love. (The MC's mother.) So instead he fights the bad guy, after knocking Lily unconcious. He kills him, Lily awakens and the battle is over.

The character who killed the bad guy, I realized just now that he's very similar to Snape, in a way. At the beginning, he was very mean to Lily. She was the one who killed her own mother at age 4.( I know it doesn't sound believable, but it was not intentional.) Which led him to hate her, and yet he chose to raise her himself. Like snape, you would think he's the bad guy. But he's the good guy, trying to get back at the Wes, who enjoys messing around with other people's feelings, taking advantage of other people's dilemmas. This character is like Lily's mentor now, and her godfather.

Sorry for the question, but should another character resolve the final plot instead of the main character? This is a character driven story.

Also, should I make bad guys sociopathic? I'm not very good at making the bad guys. If I decided to make a series out of my first book.(I know I shouldn't.) Then I'd have Wesley fake his own death and instigate feuds and wars between other countries. Wesley's the bad guy, but I can't figure out why he does the things he does. I thought of Voldemort just now, he's bad because he chooses to be. He has sociopathic tendencies, but I couldn't figure out why he thinks pure bloods are supreme, when he's a half-blood. Hitler led his people to hate the jews, when according to my research he's jewish himself. Wesley is a "muggle"(I can't think of a name yet, but let's call them muggles for now.) who feels that the supernatural folk reign supreme, and he wants to destroy the muggle race. I don't know why.

Thank you for reading, now I must get to writing, almost finished..

Shar-Jan · Jul 28, 2008

Depends on how well developed the other chraracter is. It can seem irritating if he just comes sailing out of the blue with no foreshadowing. It must never seem like a cop-out.

Shweta · Jul 28, 2008

If the other character has more invested in the final scene, can kick the ass of a programmed assassin, is more active, and saves the day, why is Lily your main character?

kuwisdelu · Jul 28, 2008

No, if it's a character-driven story it's not always necessary that he or she save the day. But you tend to make it a little harder for yourself if you don't do it that way. (On the flip side, it can be done quite well, too, of course.) Take, for example, Bilbo's character from The Hobbit. He, too, is knocked unconscious in the final battle of the story, but it's not important, because it's not important to his character that he really take part in the battle. We, the reader, don't even get to see the battle, because of it. Now that could be very anticlimactic, but it's not (though it's very frustrating if you like big battles...!), because Bilbo's story arc is still complete and emotionally satisfying for the reader. We see him grow and change from who he was at the beginning of the story, so it works.

It all depends on whether or not this is the ending that's right for your characters. Does it make the most sense for this other guy to kill Wesley (or whatever ends up happening to him)? Is Lily's character arc still complete and satisfying to the reader if she's not the one to do it? Think hard about those two questions, and if the answer to both (especially the second one) is "yes" then your ending could be fine and appropriate.

geardrops · Jul 28, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Does your main character HAVE to save the day?

No.

But...

BlueLucario said:
I wrote the end of the book. Lily could have beat the bad guy(Wes), avenging the death of a very close friend, and also for taking advantage of what she was programmed to do. But there was another person who thinks the bad guy has put him through a lot more crap than anyone else. The bad guy killed both his parents and his love. (The MC's mother.) So instead he fights the bad guy, after knocking Lily unconcious. He kills him, Lily awakens and the battle is over.

This ending would piss me the fsck off. Unconscious for the final battle screams "lazy author" to me.

kuwisdelu said:
No, if it's a character-driven story it's not always necessary that he or she save the day. But you tend to make it a little harder for yourself if you don't do it that way. (On the flip side, it can be done quite well, too, of course.) Take, for example, Bilbo's character from The Hobbit. He, too, is knocked unconscious in the final battle of the story, but it's not important, because it's not important to his character that he really take part in the battle. We, the reader, don't even get to see the battle, because of it. Now that could be very anticlimactic, but it's not (though it's very frustrating if you like big battles...!), because Bilbo's story arc is still complete and emotionally satisfying for the reader. We see him grow and change from who he was at the beginning of the story, so it works.

Great example. The story's final battle is not necessarily the MC's final battle.

Melenka · Jul 28, 2008

Whether the main character has to save the day depends on whether or not the MC is the heroic type (or in my case the anti-heroic type). If saving the day is the MCs quest, then yes, they have to finish it. If they just stumbled into whatever it is and brought someone more competent to do the actual saving with them, well, that works, too.

Self-loathing fuels many, many horrible deeds. Greed works, too. Creating a villain should take as much work and development as the hero or you can be left with a cardboard cut out "bad guy." Facing a little of that myself, but that's what rewrites are for.

Tiergan · Jul 28, 2008

No, the MC doesn't have to save the day. And shouldn't if it doesn't fit the character.

CBumpkin · Jul 28, 2008

kuwisdelu said:
No, if it's a character-driven story it's not always necessary that he or she save the day. But you tend to make it a little harder for yourself if you don't do it that way. (On the flip side, it can be done quite well, too, of course.) Take, for example, Bilbo's character from The Hobbit. He, too, is knocked unconscious in the final battle of the story, but it's not important, because it's not important to his character that he really take part in the battle. We, the reader, don't even get to see the battle, because of it. Now that could be very anticlimactic, but it's not (though it's very frustrating if you like big battles...!), because Bilbo's story arc is still complete and emotionally satisfying for the reader. We see him grow and change from who he was at the beginning of the story, so it works.

It all depends on whether or not this is the ending that's right for your characters. Does it make the most sense for this other guy to kill Wesley (or whatever ends up happening to him)? Is Lily's character arc still complete and satisfying to the reader if she's not the one to do it? Think hard about those two questions, and if the answer to both (especially the second one) is "yes" then your ending could be fine and appropriate.

I agree. How did Lily change in the course of the story? How did she grow? Readers want, and need, an emotionally satisfying conclusion for her to complete the road they walked with her.

BlueLucario · Jul 28, 2008

Of course, she'll change. What's a character without change?

She's not exactly the good guy, but at least she is struggling to resist what she is programmed to do, which is not easy. She tries to stop the guy, she loved her master to the point of obsession(as a result of accidental programming.), but he's much stronger and he has the biggest desire to kill Wesley. She can't bear to lose the people she loves.

And she becomes a more sympathetic character.

EDIT: He didn't 'save' the day. He only wants to avenge the death of his love and his parents.

virtue_summer · Jul 28, 2008

If the character who wins out over the bad guy in the end isn't a main character (if it isn't shown to be their story as much as Lily's) then it might tick me off, that is if this final battle was the finale that the entire novel had been leading to. If, on the other hand, there's another major moment after this one which is really the moment that tests your main character Lily, then another character winning the battle wouldn't be such a problem because the battle wouldn't be the major moment in the story. What I'm getting at is that usually in a story there's a big moment, a climax at the end where the main character has to face their worst enemy or their worst fear or whatnot. It's a final test and often a deciding moment. How the character reacts here is a major factor in how the reader feels when they come to the end of the book.

I'll give you an example from my own story: I plan for my main character to stop the bad guys in a big fight, but this isn't my climax. After the fight my character has to face someone he loves who is hurt and he has a chance to save them but it means taking the same actions that the so abhored when the bad guys did them. So for my story, it's not the physical battle that's the climactic one, it's the inner fight my character has with himself.

So if Lily's big moment isn't in the fight, just make sure that she has one. If not, maybe she's not the right main character and maybe it should be another character's story.

Jenifer · Jul 28, 2008

There are two fairly climatic scenes in my WIP. In one, the MC's love interest prevails (and that one involves her son)... in the other, my MC is front and center again and takes out the bad guy. Both are crucial scenes.

I am not concerned. Would readers prefer to have my MC be the one who saves her son? Probably. It's a bit more squishy and "aaw". But that's just not what happens.

If I may... you really need to stop worrying about this. Finish the story. Tell it like it is. Then your betas will tell you where the problems are.

We can wax poetic about this all day long, arguing the nuances... but it really comes down to what is appropriate for the story. And each story is different. You can't possibly know if it will work until it's done- and it's worked or it hasn't.

kuwisdelu · Jul 28, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Of course, she'll change. What's a character without change?

She's not exactly the good guy, but at least she is struggling to resist what she is programmed to do, which is not easy. She tries to stop the guy, she loved her master to the point of obsession(as a result of accidental programming.), but he's much stronger and he has the biggest desire to kill Wesley. She can't bear to lose the people she loves.

And she becomes a more sympathetic character.

From your description, I'm going to echo Jenifer and say it sounds like it's definitely fine for now, and you should just focus on getting the rest of it done. It sounds to me like worst case scenario is you might have to do some editing to make sure Lily's climactic moment is fully fleshed out as well. Don't worry about it right now.

Woolly · Jul 28, 2008

There is a long tradition of villains reaping what they sow at the hands of some force other than the main character. Let me start with Tolkien, since that's where the thread already is. At the climax of the final story arc, Frodo and the hobbits confront Saruman, who is at this point the major villain of the piece. In an important character moment, Frodo grants Saruman mercy and allows him to go on his way -- but then Wormtongue, who has had a tenth of the scenes Frodo has had but has suffered ten times the abuse at the villain's hands, strikes Saruman down where he stands.

This is, in fact, a common fate for a villain, so much so that it's easier to think of in generic terms and let you fill in the blanks with your favorite examples. Maybe the villain is on a precipice, and when the hero moves to save him, he recoils and falls to his death. Maybe his trusty but morally ambiguous sidekick cannot abide his final atrocity and turns on him as only a sidekick can. Maybe the gallery of one-time victims or slaves the villain has collected unites to crush him in a stampede. Maybe his fondness for danger, his hubris, or his inattention to detail leads him to a hasty demise.

In short, you've seen this trope a thousand times, and the examples you mentally furnished probably had something in common with Tolkien: the main character is anything but unconscious and psychologically or physically vanquishes the villain before the other force intervenes. This way, the main character's arc gets resolution while the villain's demise is sufficiently retributive and ironic.

Shweta · Jul 28, 2008

Also, Gollum is the one who dumps the ring into the volcano. Frodo can't.

It's often an easy out, though, letting a "good" character not kill. Which is obviously not going to be a problem in your book, Blue

Rather, your MC not killing as she's programmed to is itself a victory for her, isn't it?

Jenifer · Jul 28, 2008

Shweta said:
It's often an easy out, though, letting a "good" character not kill. Which is obviously not going to be a problem in your book, Blue Rather, your MC not killing as she's programmed to is itself a victory for her, isn't it?

Agreed!

I'd have to whine a bit and say that the MC being unconscious through the fight wouldn't count as a victory in my mind- she didn't choose not to kill or really even fight the urge. She had the option taken away from her.

Shweta · Jul 28, 2008

Agreed.
Unless she got knocked out while fighting her conditioning and thus not paying enough attention, or something, but even then, she could just do that & have a confused sense of the outer battle.

Jenifer · Jul 28, 2008

Yeah! Whack her, leave her half-conscious and forced to watch the fight unfold while she is incapacitated. I like that. Torturous. Someone could step on her on the way to stab someone else.

~grace~ · Jul 29, 2008

dempsey said:
The story's final battle is not necessarily the MC's final battle.

QFT

Jenifer said:
We can wax poetic about this all day long, arguing the nuances... but it really comes down to what is appropriate for the story. And each story is different. You can't possibly know if it will work until it's done- and it's worked or it hasn't.

and again.

there are some smart people in these here forums

Antony B · Jul 29, 2008

Jenifer said:
We can wax poetic about this all day long, arguing the nuances... but it really comes down to what is appropriate for the story. And each story is different. You can't possibly know if it will work until it's done- and it's worked or it hasn't.

Very true. One of my novels ends with the MC essentially 'saving the day', but I've had one reader say she wanted a particular secondary character to be the savior - and was a little disappointed when that didn't happen.

So it can go both ways. Remain true to the story.

FennelGiraffe · Jul 29, 2008

Your MC needs to resolve her story goal. If her goal is to "save the day", then, yes, she does need to be instrumental in accomplishing that.

But. "Being instrumental" doesn't necessarily mean she has to sink the winning basket. It could also mean realizing she isn't in position to make that shot, so she passes the ball to the player who can. That's still taking definitive action that leads to the resolution.

It also depends on what her story goal was all along. If her goal is to become a better person or find love or any number of other things, then "saving the day" is merely something that happens along the way.

tehuti88 · Jul 29, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Sorry for the question, but should another character resolve the final plot instead of the main character? This is a character driven story.

A character other than the MC can resolve the plot, IF it fits into the story, and there'd better be a good reason for it to not come off sounding like the protagonist is ineffectual. In my current serial the protagonist isn't going to solve the FINAL problem, but this much has been built up in the plot already, so the guy who does solve it, and his reasons for having to solve it himself, will fit right in. And my main character is pretty influential throughout the rest of the story, and is pivotal to the story's solution, so she's not ineffectual even if she doesn't save the entire day.

BlueLucario said:
Also, should I make bad guys sociopathic?

Only if they're sociopaths.

kzmiller · Jul 29, 2008

Jenifer said:
Agreed!

I'd have to whine a bit and say that the MC being unconscious through the fight wouldn't count as a victory in my mind- she didn't choose not to kill or really even fight the urge. She had the option taken away from her.

I agree. This would irritate the heck out of me. Let her be active in some fashion, even if it's holding herself back, or struggling with a crippling injury that prevents her from killing, or whatever. Having her unconscious would rob me of what sounds like a climactic or at least extremely important scene if it does away entirely with the BG.

Toothpaste · Jul 29, 2008

Anyone read Twilight? That's exactly what happens at the end of the first book (haven't read the others). I was really surprised that for the big climactic battle scene, our MC was out cold. Sometimes that sort of thing can really work, if the point of the story is not the plot but something in the character's development. If let's say the character always saves the day, and then at the end of the book doesn't, that can be meaningful. But like with Twilight, I was all . . . "well we knew she was going to be saved . . . and she was . . . and we didn't even get to read about it . . . I don't get it."

(apologies to the Twilight fans out there, I'm not saying the story doesn't have merit in other ways, but that ending didn't do it for me. Good news is looks like in the trailer of the film that we do get to see the fight at least on screen!)

Phaeal · Jul 29, 2008

Another character actually doing the day-saving deed can work IF the MC gets a chance to make a crucial decision. It will work best if the MC's decision (or decisions) affect or lead up to the day-saving deed.

To return to the Frodo example. He doesn't throw the Ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, but he does make a chilling decision. He will claim the Ring for himself. Proper reader reaction: OMG, if Frodo can't off the Ring, NOBODY can! (Yup, that's the point.) Crucially, though, Frodo's earlier decision to spare Gollum's life allows for Gollum to be on hand for the climax and to accidentlally tumble, Ring in hand, into the fire. So Frodo made the pivotal decision, after all.

BlueLucario · Jul 29, 2008

I haven't read Twilight, but I wanted to.

I think I understood what you meant, if this ending was written to serve the plot then readers might feel cheated, if it's for character development the end would make a bit more sense. Character development was the purpose of this ending. The other character had his own reasons for killing the bad guy, and he's one of a few adults who saw how bad he was, he warned Lily about joining him.

I compared this guy to Snape, at the beginning he seems like he's the bad guy but he's just a guy who can't cope with the Loss of his love. That's why I won't make him the main character, because of that.

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Does your main character HAVE to save the day?

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