Deus Ex Machina

Ageless Stranger · Jul 25, 2008

Now I know what this means and how it works, but within my own novels there are one or two ideas that I'm not sure about.

Basically the hero is trapped in a deserted prison thingy and has to get out to complete his quest but he can't, there's literally no way out of the place. So along comes this god-like being who offers to free him in return for a rather hefty favour. Is this a Deus Ex Machina? It follows the internal logic of the story; e.g; there is plenty of foreshadowing, he is mentioned once or twice, etc. So, yeah, is this DEM? Also does anyone else experience this problem in their stories?

DeeCaudill · Jul 25, 2008

Does this god come riding in on a crane?

Just my opinion, but Deus Ex Machina occurs when things are completely beyond any sort of normal resolution and happens during the denouement/catharsis--i.e. at the end of the story.

I'm curious what other people think.

maxmordon · Jul 25, 2008

Ageless Stranger said:
Now I know what this means and how it works, but within my own novels there are one or two ideas that I'm not sure about.

Basically the hero is trapped in a deserted prison thingy and has to get out to complete his quest but he can't, there's literally no way out of the place. So along comes this god-like being who offers to free him in return for a rather hefty favour. Is this a Deus Ex Machina? It follows the internal logic of the story; e.g; there is plenty of foreshadowing, he is mentioned once or twice, etc. So, yeah, is this DEM? Also does anyone else experience this problem in their stories?

No, that would be Chekov's Gun (some element foreshadowed that ends up being plot relevant) since Anton Chekov said "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there"

DEM is when something out of the blue without previous notice comes and rescue the day, think for example in the hunter on Little Red Riding Hood

Ageless Stranger · Jul 25, 2008

maxmordon said:
No, that would be Chekov's Gun (some element foreshadowed that ends up being plot relevant) since Anton Chekov said "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there"

DEM is when something out of the blue without previous notice comes and rescue the day, think for example in the hunter on Little Red Riding Hood

I need to stop watching NCOM and get more sleep, couldn've sworn that said Chigurh.

Thanks maxmordon, that's what I was thinking too.

It's so nice to be proven right.

sassandgroove · Jul 25, 2008

I am not sure what I can add, but here are some other threads that discussed it for your reference.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36581&highlight=Deus,+Machina

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18788&highlight=Deus,+Machina

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94618&highlight=Deus,+Machina

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47402&highlight=Deus,+Machina

Cato · Jul 25, 2008

Personally, I think DEM's are the worst thing you can put into your novel.

FennelGiraffe · Jul 25, 2008

Never use coincidence, chance, luck, or the random whim of gods to help your protag. (Hurt him, yes, but not help.)

In your case, even if adequately foreshadowed, there should be a specific reason for the god-like beings to show up and decide to help him. Even if they do want something in return, why him, why then? Also, the favor being asked should complicate his life. It should get him into worse trouble, cost something he can't afford to lose, or sidetrack him from his main goal.

leon66a · Jul 25, 2008

I might have a problem with your scenario if it popped up at the end of the book. If it's more in the middle and provides a plot twist, then it's more of a Rumpelstiltsking thing which is fine.

Phaeal · Jul 26, 2008

How well this plot twist would work, for me, would depend on whether the favor the hero must perform meshes effectively with the plot following the prison incident. Also a factor: How well can you explain the god's interest in the hero and why the god can't just do whatever it is for himself. The standard and effective explanation for gods tapping mortals for favors is that the god is testing the hero, but you can also impose limitations on gods or posit that they amuse themselves proposing difficult feats. Caveat: gods amusing themselves with silly mortals will lessen the importance of whatever quest the hero's pursuing. Unless his quest is to take the irritating gods down a peg.

Bufty · Jul 26, 2008

I don't see anything wrong with what you've outlined, Ageless.

To me, DEM is something that comes totally out of left field -out of the blue - and itself is the final resolution of whatever the problem was, leaving the reader going WTF happened here and slinging the book against the wall.

It's like the rescuing cavalry patrol charging over the hill in the final reel of a western when there isn't a Fort in sight, there's desert for five hundred miles and nobody even knew the army was involved in the story.

Ageless Stranger · Jul 26, 2008

Basically the god is forbidden to intervene directly in human affairs (and he refuses to explain why or what his over all intentions are to my MC) and so he needs to use my mc to fight this grand new evil that's arising and yes, by agreeing to work for the god, my hero basically commits himself to a rather nasty ritual and a very unequal battle against what could be described as the combined forces of every hell from across every possible dimension. The god more or less forces my MC into the greater battle that's arisen from his earlier actions. Also, the god forces my MC through a pretty rough mental and physical test before he even decides to use him.

ajkjd01 · Jul 26, 2008

A good example of a person who uses DEMs...C.S. Lewis.

A lot.

Drives me batty.

I think there's a difference though, between getting your characters backed so far into a corner that only the god-like figure can swoop in and save them, and having the story be about the push me-pull you between a MC and a god. As long as it doesn't become a story where the only way to win is for the god to swoop in and heal everything, you've avoided the problem. I think your story could work....but if it's about the MC, then the MC has to have the ability to solve the problems himself, rather than the god swooping in to make it all better.

BlueLucario · Jul 26, 2008

Harry Potter had some Deus ex Machina's in the series.

The best example of Deus ex Machina is the Little Red Riding hood story. Just look at how it ends, with the woodsman saving the day. Was the woodsman mentioned anywhere before that point? No. So that makes it DEM

I just came across something that might be DEM.

-I was watching an anime. Yu Yu Hakusho if anyone has heard of it. At the end of the series, the Main character Yusuke Urameshi dies. He sacrificed himself so his friends can beat the bad guy Sensui. For some reason, I found that to be forced. I wasn't sure why he did that. Sensui kills Yusuke, and his body lays there. His friends were set free and went out to get revenge. They fight the bad guy, and they are losing pretty terribly. Then suddenly, his spirit pet. (Who will die if Yusuke dies.) Floats into the middle of the city and transforms into a big bird.

The group of like Special Ops people. Called the Special Defense Force are called upon and was ordered to execute Yusuke. And there's this big back story about the Demon Mazoku. Then after idling, they were too late, yusuke came back to life. And his bird comes along.

There was no reference of Yusuke's demon anywhere in the series except at the last minute. Yusuku dies and comes back to life as a demon.

Would that be Deus ex Machina? I have a feeling it is.

Toothpaste · Jul 26, 2008

What's an example of a Deus Ex Machina in Harry Potter, Blue, I'm curious?

BlueLucario · Jul 26, 2008

Hmm...

In the Chamber of Secrets, where Harry fights the basilisk. Harry is in big trouble, until Fawkes and the Sorting hat came along. Then Harry Pulls out Gryffindor's Sword out of the hat and the battle continues. And when Harry was about to die, Fawkes' tear saves him.

The sword wasn't mentioned in the story. So it might be Deus ex Machina.

I could be wrong, so forgive me. I don't want to go into a little Harry Potter debate.

I wasn't sure about book four. When Harry fights Voldemort, and when Voldemort had harry in his clutches, the ghosts of his parents save the day.

kuwisdelu · Jul 26, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Hmm...

In the Chamber of Secrets, where Harry fights the basilisk. Harry is in big trouble, until Fawkes and the Sorting hat came along. Then Harry Pulls out Gryffindor's Sword out of the hat and the battle continues. And when Harry was about to die, Fawkes' tear saves him.

The sword wasn't mentioned in the story. So it might be Deus ex Machina.

I could be wrong, so forgive me. I don't want to go into a little Harry Potter debate.

I wasn't sure about book four. When Harry fights Voldemort, and when Voldemort had harry in his clutches, the ghosts of his parents save the day.

I haven't read the book, but in the movies the Deus Ex Machina of those scenes made me groan. I hear in book four, the explanation made it a little more believable, but even after explanation, the whole basilisk section still smacks of DEM to me.

maxmordon · Jul 26, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Hmm...

In the Chamber of Secrets, where Harry fights the basilisk. Harry is in big trouble, until Fawkes and the Sorting hat came along. Then Harry Pulls out Gryffindor's Sword out of the hat and the battle continues. And when Harry was about to die, Fawkes' tear saves him.

The sword wasn't mentioned in the story. So it might be Deus ex Machina.

I could be wrong, so forgive me. I don't want to go into a little Harry Potter debate.

I wasn't sure about book four. When Harry fights Voldemort, and when Voldemort had harry in his clutches, the ghosts of his parents save the day.

The Chambers of Secrets example is more a Chekhov's Gun in my opinion. Fawkes was introduced before in that book

kuwisdelu · Jul 26, 2008

maxmordon said:
The Chambers of Secrets example is more a Chekhov's Gun in my opinion. Fawkes was introduced before in that book

I know...but it just feels so contrived...

BlueLucario · Jul 26, 2008

Yes, Fawkes was intorduced, but not the sword.

katiemac · Jul 26, 2008

maxmordon said:
The Chambers of Secrets example is more a Chekhov's Gun in my opinion. Fawkes was introduced before in that book

Possibly getting my timelines mixed up, but yes, Fawkes was introduced so does not count as DEM. I'd argue that the sword doesn't count either because not only was the hat introduced earlier, the readers know it can do special things and that other historical relics (the sword) exist.

Goblet of Fire isn't DEM either because the readers were aware that the two wands would act oddly together. Furthermore, it's Harry who takes action to make his parents appear, even if he doesn't know what's going to happen.

To me, DEM is something that comes totally out of left field -out of the blue - and itself is the final resolution of whatever the problem was, leaving the reader going WTF happened here and slinging the book against the wall.

Right. I know this was debated a lot in the threads Sass linked, but DEM has to be completely unsubstantiated in the text. I think there are fewer true DEMs than readers/writers realize, but that doesn't mean the ones that are on the line are automatically okay.

kuwisdelu · Jul 26, 2008

katiemac said:
Right. I know this was debated a lot in the threads Sass linked, but DEM has to be completely unsubstantiated in the text. I think there are fewer true DEMs than readers/writers realize, but that doesn't mean the ones that are on the line should be dismissed.

True, there are probably many fewer true Deux Ex Machina moments than we immediately think of. But I think we should also strive to avoid those near-Deux Ex Machina moments, too. Like the whole Fawkes/sword thing, which personally made me want to slam the TV against the wall, at least, and it sounds like it wasn't much better in the book.

BlueLucario · Jul 26, 2008

Here's one more.

Again I am unsure.

Does anyone remember the Sorcerer's Stone? Where the dementor was sucking Unicorn Blood, but when it comes after Harry, Firenze comes along.

katiemac · Jul 26, 2008

kuwisdelu said:
True, there are probably many fewer true Deux Ex Machina moments than we immediately think of. But I think we should also strive to avoid those near-Deux Ex Machina moments, too. Like the whole Fawkes/sword thing, which personally made me want to slam the TV against the wall, at least, and it sounds like it wasn't much better in the book.

Sounds like we're on the same page.

So, Ageless, to answer your original question I don't think you're dealing with a deus ex machina. I'm wondering, however--does your hero like this god? I'm only asking because, maybe, it would feel less contrived if at some point in the story the hero requests this being's help (or maybe from another being?) only they choose at this moment when he's literally stuck to help him out with a price. You do mention his name beforehand, so that's at least a good direction to not being a true DEM.

BlueLucario · Jul 26, 2008

kuwisdelu said:
But I think we should also strive to avoid those near-Deux Ex Machina moments, too. Like the whole Fawkes/sword thing, which personally made me want to slam the TV against the wall, at least, and it sounds like it wasn't much better in the book.

I didn't know there was near Deus ex Machina moment. Slamming a T.V is a bit too extreme. They're expensive

Me? When I watched the movie, I threw a glass of milk at my T.V. :roll:

KTC · Jul 26, 2008

Wiki

Scroll down to Modern Uses. I like what they say there...I think it shows a weakness in the writer to rely on this mechanism.

Deus Ex Machina

Dave Brubeck kicks your ass.

Nightmare Recycler

Penúltimo

Dave Brubeck kicks your ass.

Sassy haircut

Master of Puppets

It's green they say

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Where have the last ten years gone?

Dave Brubeck kicks your ass.

I just have to be faster.

Blood Elves FTW

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Blood Elves FTW

Revolutionize the World

Penúltimo

Revolutionize the World

Blood Elves FTW

Five by Five

Revolutionize the World

Blood Elves FTW

Five by Five

Blood Elves FTW

Stand in the Place Where You Live