Men and books about/by/featuring women

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hastingspress

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Many thanks to JA Konrath for producing his ebook, which I have been reading closely.

I'd like to ask him to expand on something in it, and also ask others on the forum to give an opinion.

On pitching to potential readers/buyers:

"If the gawkers are mostly women, I mention that Jack is short for Jacqueline. If they're mostly men, I leave that part out."

I'd like to get to the bottom of why men are not interested, or why people think men are not interested in books about women (other than as sex objects, presumably) or by women, or with female heroines.

In 2005 I published a book called "Railwaywomen". It's the first history of women who worked on the railways of the UK over the past 170 years. The reviews are fabulous ( see http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/railwaywomen/railindex.html )

Time and time and time again railway-specialist booksellers (who should be my main retailers) have refused to stock the book. When I ask why, I am told 'Because most of our customers are men.' That, they seem to think, is a satisfactory explanation, as though it naturally and logically follows that, being men, it is self-evident that they will have no interest whatsoever in books about women.

If I press them to explain further, they will say overtly 'Well, obviously, they won't be interested in books about women.'

Of course the annoying thing for me is that if my book isn't stocked, then potential buyers won't see it and so we'll never know if they would buy it or not, because the book-seller is censoring what his customers will and will not be allowed to see when they are browsing.

Now, the funny thing is, of my trackable sales, i.e. from my website, 95% of the books I have posted out have gone to men. 32 of my 35 reviewers were men. When I have done public talks, the audience were mainly men and I sold books to them, too. In fact, the lack of female readers has troubled me greatly.

My new book is called "Notable Sussex Women", a collection of 580 short biogs of women who lived in my county. During a recent newspaper competition to win a copy, one-third of the entries were from men.

So, be very interested to hear from y'all, especially JA Konrath who admits in his e-book that he tells female potential buyers that Jack is a woman but holds back that information from men.

Helena Wojtczak
 
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JJ Cooper

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I can't speak on behalf of JA, but I can say Joe is widely recognised as one of the hardest working authors in the business when it comes to marketting.

I can't answer why the things are they way they are with women preferring a female MC and men preferring a male MC. But I can recognise that it is the case and if you want to sell your books you need to treat it as something that is prevalant in the business and target your marketing as such. You'll note of late a lot of female authors using initials instead of their full name. Even males like myself are. Why? We want our readers to judge the book on it's content and not our name (at least when we first start out). Same with our MCs. A lot even have names that could be male or female. Mine is called Jay. I am not trying to be deceptive, I just don't want the reader to put the book down after reading the back cover and discovering the sex of my main character.

It's a good question and I don't know why people prefer one or the other. We just do. I prefer a male lead, yet I'm reading one at the moment with a female lead - her name is Mak.

It's just good marketing IMO to keep it neutral.

JJ
 

JJ Cooper

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I'm not sure, Helena.

Maybe a better understanding of the audience you are pitching to and planning the marketing well in advance. Everything from character names, titles, blurbs, covers - all need to be considered carefully.

My book is a year from publication and the marketing department at my publisher have already started on strategies for sales, as have I.

But it is fiction and I have no experience with non-fiction, sorry.

JJ
 

hastingspress

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Yes, I did all that. Railway history is a huge business here in the UK, we are made about railway nostalgia, we have numerous preserved steam railways up and down the country, hundreds of railway societies, clubs, etc.

There's nothing wrong with my marketing. There's nothing wrong with my sales, either, the book has done really well and has won two awards.

My gripe was that most railway bookshops, run by men, will not stock the book because they believe that men will not buy any book that is about women.

I'm asking why men aren't thought to be interested in what women have done/achieved, yet women buy books all the time that are about men.
 

JJ Cooper

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Through my previous work I met a lot of personalities interested in railways. I figure around 90% of them were men. Knowing that, if I wrote a story about women in the railway it would only be pitched at 10% of those interested in railways, maybe a bit more. Have a look at any forum on the internet regarding railways and I'm sure you'll find the majority of members are male.

You can write a fantastic book with detailed historical information, but unless you are targetting the right audience, it won't sell well.

I'll go out on a limb and say your title killed a lot of sales. That's a marketing mistake in my opinion. And it is only an opinion and no swipe at your book or your writing.

JJ
 

hastingspress

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But it's not "a story", JJ.

I have already said on this thread that the book is non-fiction and that it is the history of women who worked on the railways of the UK over the past 170 years.

You think the title "Railwaywomen" has "killed sales"?

I am intrigued to hear what title you would give such a book?
 

JJ Cooper

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What's the theme of the book? Saying it is a history of women in the railway to me means you list every woman who has been in the railway over the last 170 years in chronological order. Start and fish date, role description etc. Any actual stories involved? Was there a transformation of acceptance for women working in the railway? Did they fight for their rights to work alond side males? Did any rise from apprentice to CEO? Were there periods of sexual harassment that they fought through? How has equity and diversity changed the way a railway operates?

Tell me what the book is actually about and I'll give it a go at getting a title for you.

JJ
 

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JJ Cooper

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That's the thing. A theme should be no longer than a sentence. Until you have that at the ready and willing to share with consumers, people won't follow your links or pursue an interest. It's a sales pitch - a hook.

My son won an award today for sitting up straight in class. I am very proud of him, but it's not going to win him an automatic scholarship to university studying ergonomics. It's like calling your book 'bestselling' because it was in the top ten sales in your local bookstore in any given week.

JJ
 

hastingspress

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You just aren't making any sense to me at all, JJ.

You don't seem to have read anything that I have written on this entire thread. For most of it you thought my work was fiction. And I have said again and again I have no problem with sales, what I have a problem with is railway specialist booksellers refusing the book without even seeing it, based purely on the subject matter.

I have had thousands of sales, dozens of reviews, and no-one has ever said the title was wrong. But as you took an interest, and you wanted more info, I gave you excerpts, and you come back with no new title as promised, just a non-sequitur that baffles me, and some attempt to try to belittle my success in winning two prizes.

Changing the title (which I would NEVER do) would not change the subject of the book, and thus would not affect the male railway bookseller's refusal to stock the book!

Are you drunk, or did you just set out today to be deliberately insulting or to pick a fight, or to sneer down your nose at me? There are people who are lower down the ladder than I am in this business, and I would never be so rude to them as you have been to me.
 

JJ Cooper

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You just aren't making any sense to me at all, JJ.

You don't seem to have read anything that I have written on this entire thread. For most of it you thought my work was fiction. And I have said again and again I have no problem with sales, what I have a problem with is railway specialist booksellers refusing the book without even seeing it, based purely on the subject matter.

I have had thousands of sales, dozens of reviews, and no-one has ever said the title was wrong. But as you took an interest, and you wanted more info, I gave you excerpts, and you come back with no new title as promised, just a non-sequitur that baffles me, and some attempt to try to belittle my success in winning two prizes.

Changing the title (which I would NEVER do) would not change the subject of the book, and thus would not affect the male railway bookseller's refusal to stock the book!

Are you drunk, or did you just set out today to be deliberately insulting or to pick a fight, or to sneer down your nose at me? There are people who are lower down the ladder than I am in this business, and I would never be so rude to them as you have been to me.

Actually, I'm not drunk. And I take offence at the suggestion.

My replies have been well considered and polite. I have given you my opinion. You claim your marketing has been very sucessful and yet still wonder why certain outlets won't stock your book. That's confusing. I am well aware that your work is non-fiction. I do read your posts before replying.

I applaud you for winning two prizes that you have not any given details of.

Please detail where I have been insulting, where I have sneered down my nose at you and where I have been rude.

BTW - could you please outline the theme for your non-fiction book?

JJ
 
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hastingspress

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MaryMumsy

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Now, the funny thing is, of my trackable sales, i.e. from my website, 95% of the books I have posted out have gone to men. 32 of my 35 reviewers were men. When I have done public talks, the audience were mainly men and I sold books to them, too. In fact, the lack of female readers has troubled me greatly.

Have you tried explaining these statistics to the booksellers who won't carry your book?

MM
 

hastingspress

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Have you tried explaining these statistics to the booksellers who won't carry your book?MM

Hello Mary!

Yes, indeed, I could not help myself. The responses were along the lines of "That's as maybe, but I know my own customers". I also found that admitting to selling the book via a website seemed to put their backs up a little bit (I guess the internet is killing small, specialist bookshops?) and some of them snapped at me: "well carry on selling from your website, then!"

Helena
 

Clair Dickson

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Are there comparable books that detail the lives of men like yours does women?

As an atypical woman, I'm really leary of buying a book that's anti-man, full of female perspective on clothing, parenting, fashion, etc. Even female history's can come off wrong because they (often) make a big deal about how the MEN (evil men!) have kept women down.

With my OWN bias, I can see where many men might have the same leariness. Is it fair? Why do you think J.K. Rowlings initially published under her intials? Word I heard was that the publisher was concerned young guys wouldn't want to read a book by a woman. Probably because of the same concerns I have-- not wanting to read "girly" stuff.

That's my two cents. I admit I have only read this thread and not the links (slow connection) so I apologize if that's rude.
 

hastingspress

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Are there comparable books that detail the lives of men like yours does women?
...
Even female history's can come off wrong because they (often) make a big deal about how the MEN (evil men!) have kept women down.

Hi Clair

(1) Yes, there have been several books, one called Railwaymen, another called The Railway Workers (though when you open it, it's only about men). I called mine Railwaywomen to be the counterpart of the one called Railwaymen. You cannot beat a one-word book title!

(2) If you were a university-trained historical researcher, and your research uncovered cast-iron evidence that men in the industry you were investigating DID, in fact, keep women down, what would you write in your book?

Would you pretend you had not seen such evidence? Would you leave it out of your book? Would you skew it so it looked like men were supportive and accepting of women all the way?

I'm genuinely interested to know what you would do.

Best regards

Helena
 

JJ Cooper

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I already answered this query once. I said:

Would you be so kind as to look at an excerpt, it's faster than any other way of explaining.

http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/railwaywomen/excerpt.pdf

http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/railw...n/excerpt2.pdf

No. I asked you for your theme. Not links.

Again, can you please detail where I have been insulting, where I have sneered down my nose at you and where I have been rude.

And, of note you did not offer any explanation of your conclusions that I am drunk. I'd be happy to hear them.

JJ
 

JJ Cooper

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It seems you still have a some more to learn about the publishing business, don't we all?

How about having a crack at these ones:

Again, can you please detail where I have been insulting, where I have sneered down my nose at you and where I have been rude.

And, of note you did not offer any explanation of your conclusions that I am drunk. I'd be happy to hear them.

JJ
 

JJ Cooper

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Stop playing games with me. You know full well that it is an insult when an author says she has won a prize and your response is, so what - my son won a prize for sitting up straight in class. You still haven't done what you said you were going to do: i.e. you criticised the title of my book and said you could come up with a better one. We've all yet to hear it.

I again congratulate you on your prize you will not elaborate on.

Let me know the theme without directing me to links. Simple for an experienced writer like yourself, I'm sure.

And I'd be interested in some responses to the following:

Again, can you please detail where I have been insulting, where I have sneered down my nose at you and where I have been rude.

And, of note you did not offer any explanation of your conclusions that I am drunk. I'd be happy to hear them.

JJ
 

Claudia Gray

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IMHO, neither men nor women are as fixated on MCs of their own gender as marketers are determined to think.
 

Toothpaste

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My son won an award today for sitting up straight in class. I am very proud of him, but it's not going to win him an automatic scholarship to university studying ergonomics. It's like calling your book 'bestselling' because it was in the top ten sales in your local bookstore in any given week.

JJ

Well I'll have a go. This is pretty offensive. You are basically equating her awards with those "everybody is a winner" awards you get in middle school. You are putting down her credentials as if for some reason they even matter to the argument at hand.

Having read the whole thread JJ, I will have to say from the beginning you were quite dismissive of her opinion. You basically said, "Them's the breaks, deal with it." That may be the way things are now, in fact it is quite obvious that's how things are now, but "why" was the question asked. There have since been some interesting conversations about why in this thread. You just came in to defend JA (who wasn't being attacked in the first place) and to tell her, well sorry hon, you write a book about women, you should expect men not to read it. I can tell you for one my father would be offended at being placed in such a narrow category. He enjoys books about history in general, and would read something about women. He prefers to be considered a thoughtful individual and not some sexist jerk who can't see past his own gender.

The issue at hand is why do people feel automatically turned off by someone writing a book about women? Many think, "Well why can't it be all encompassing, talk about men too?" Because those books are already out there. Almost all the histories out there focus on men. But they aren't "about" men, they are about the topic at hand, whatever it may be. Nonetheless, women are often left suspiciously absent from said histories. How do we fill the void? By writing about them. By stocking the shelves. If the gents at these railway stores always say, "I won't stock this book because men won't buy it" it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Duh, no men will buy it because you don't give them the option. If we always said, "That's how it is, deal with it" then we would not have had the advances in gender and race relations like we have had these past decades. If we never had these discussions, then we would never learn to open our eyes to new ideas.

I think it's an interesting discussion to have.
 
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JJ Cooper

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Well I'll have a go. This is pretty offensive. You are basically equating her awards with those "everybody is a winner" awards you get in middle school. You are putting down her credentials as if for some reason they even matter to the argument at hand.

Having read the whole thread JJ, I will have to say from the beginning you were quite dismissive of her opinion. You basically said, "Them's the breaks, deal with it." That may be the way things are now, in fact it is quite obvious that's how things are now, but "why" was the question asked. There have since been some interesting conversations about why in this thread. You just came in to defend JA (who wasn't being attacked in the first place) and to tell her, well sorry hon, you write a book about women, you should expect men not to read it. I can tell you for one my father would be offended at being placed in such a narrow category. He enjoys books about history in general, and would read something about women. He prefers to be considered a thoughtful individual and not some sexist jerk who can't see past his own gender.

The issue at hand is why do people feel automatically turned off by someone writing a book about women? Many think, "Well why can't it be all encompassing, talk about men too?" Because those books are already out there. Almost all the histories out there focus on men. But they aren't "about" men, they are about the topic at hand, whatever it may be. Nonetheless, women are often left suspiciously absent from said histories. How do we fill the void? By writing about them. By stocking the shelves. If the gents at these railway stores always say, "I won't stock this book because men won't buy it" it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Duh, no men will buy it because you don't give them the option. If we always said, "That's how it is, deal with it" then we would not have had the advances in gender and race relations like we have had these past decades. If we never had these discussions, then we would never learn to open our eyes to new ideas.

I think it's an interesting discussion to have.

I'll give it a go, too. What are her awards? And yes - them's the breaks deal with it and work around it.

You may have read the whole thread, Toothpaste. Perhaps you can go and have another look at how many times I said that I have no answer to why men would not read it.

So, I suggest you get off your 'high horse' bullshit attack on me and let the OP answer my questions.

JJ
 

JJ Cooper

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I just summed up the theme in my previous message to this board, and now you are asking me again. Please leave this discussion, you are contributing nothing to it.

Thank Goodness I see that Toothpaste has replied in an honest, reasonable, sensible and intelligent manner.

No you didn't.

And still some questions you are avoiding:

Again, can you please detail where I have been insulting, where I have sneered down my nose at you and where I have been rude.

And, of note you did not offer any explanation of your conclusions that I am drunk. I'd be happy to hear them.

JJ
 
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