I was wondering about how much action should be written by a screenwriter and how much should be done by a choreographer. This is in regards to a fight scene between the protagonist and a couple opposing characters. Is it the screenwriter's responsibility to flesh out the entire battle or just the main points?
Writing Action
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Just the main points: A HITS B. B HITS A BACK. A STUMBLES ON CHAIR. B HITS A WITH CHAIR. C ENTERS, DRAWS GUN, FIRES, KILLS A. The director will work with the choreographer to flesh it out.
As a matter of personal preference, most of the descriptions I use in a fight scene draw a very vivid image. I've actually got a scene right now that's running 4 pages...it's much too long but I just love this fight scene. I would suggest using more vivid descriptions than A hits B, B hits A back, though. 
Sorry Ben.
Here's an excerpt from the scene I was referring to. It's probably a lot more description than I should include, but it's also the first scene, so I wanted it to really stand out. This is the beginning of a cage fight:
"He makes the first move with a roundhouse kick to her head. She deftly blocks the kick and elbows his knee. He grunts and hops a few steps away from her.
Li presses her advantage and closes quickly, but Mencina lands an elbow in her face knocking her to the ground.
She picks herself up and swipes the blood from her split lip. Mencina laughs and advances again.
Li spins low to knock him off center, but he jumps avoiding her leg. He comes down with a heavy fist, breaking her nose."
You get the idea
Sorry Ben.Here's an excerpt from the scene I was referring to. It's probably a lot more description than I should include, but it's also the first scene, so I wanted it to really stand out. This is the beginning of a cage fight:
"He makes the first move with a roundhouse kick to her head. She deftly blocks the kick and elbows his knee. He grunts and hops a few steps away from her.
Li presses her advantage and closes quickly, but Mencina lands an elbow in her face knocking her to the ground.
She picks herself up and swipes the blood from her split lip. Mencina laughs and advances again.
Li spins low to knock him off center, but he jumps avoiding her leg. He comes down with a heavy fist, breaking her nose."
You get the idea
Thanx for the prompt responses. Im also one to be a bit more descriptive, but I dont want to waste pages on a fight scene when the details can be fleshed out later. I know the one page is one minute of screen time is not precise, but i wouldnt want to waste 5 pages on a 5 minute fight scene.
My post was unclear, my apologies...there are other things going on in that scene, not just the fight. Even still, it's too long and some of the fight will be cut. There are other things that will have to go as well, but that's for the rewrites. During the rough draft I just have my fun!
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Oft-quoted tip from pro screenwriter Bill Martell:
WHY WRITE A FIGHT SCENE?
http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip324.htm
The short answer is, to give the script reader the same thrilling experience the viewing audience gets.
-Derek
WHY WRITE A FIGHT SCENE?
http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip324.htm
The short answer is, to give the script reader the same thrilling experience the viewing audience gets.
-Derek
Exactly, whatever you do, you want to entice the reader, you want to get them excited about them, you want them to want to see it on film. If they can't get excited about it, they won't recommend it.
I learned this one the hard way through a Universal Studios reader who loved the premise, loved the structure, but the action part of the writing wasn't exciting enough for her to give it a recommend.
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As a fight choreographer - its pretty irrelevant. Write what you want, write to 'sell' the drama and excitement of the scene. Vivid and CLEAR imagery - but keep it concise. Also, try and avoid techinical terms that only a skilled martial artist would understand, keep the actions 'generic' so an untrained reader will still see them - and be excited by them.
When it gets time to shoot -the director and the choreographer will create the scene.
When it gets time to shoot -the director and the choreographer will create the scene.
I don't understand why, if your action isn't so implicitly tied to your character and storyline, you wouldn't have to write out the whole thing. Good action shouldn't just be made up by the action choreographer, but should be important to the character and the script. Your character should fight a certain way that reflects on him. Does he always punch for the head? (that's kind of vicious). Or does he punch in the gut because he just wants to incapacitate someone? Is he always on the defense (because he's not that good, or because he doesn't want to hurt people) or is he on the offense?
Also, why this fight scene? Are they using props? What is the location? These things should all reflect on your plot. Maybe they are both trying to get a stolen object. In this case the fight scene should play out like a conversation. Who has the upper hand? How does the other character reverse expectations?
Not writing your whole fight scene out means that you haven't thought about it and it doesn't even need to be in your screenplay. Just like you wouldn't have extraneous dialogue, don't have extraneous fighting. It has to be an important part of your movie, that reflects the characters, theme and plot of your movie. It's not some throwaway thing that a fight choreographer can come up with months later.
Also, why this fight scene? Are they using props? What is the location? These things should all reflect on your plot. Maybe they are both trying to get a stolen object. In this case the fight scene should play out like a conversation. Who has the upper hand? How does the other character reverse expectations?
Not writing your whole fight scene out means that you haven't thought about it and it doesn't even need to be in your screenplay. Just like you wouldn't have extraneous dialogue, don't have extraneous fighting. It has to be an important part of your movie, that reflects the characters, theme and plot of your movie. It's not some throwaway thing that a fight choreographer can come up with months later.
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Not writing your whole fight scene out means that you haven't thought about it and it doesn't even need to be in your screenplay. Just like you wouldn't have extraneous dialogue, don't have extraneous fighting. It has to be an important part of your movie, that reflects the characters, theme and plot of your movie. It's not some throwaway thing that a fight choreographer can come up with months later.[/quote]
While its true that your fight should be well thought out, and the motivations for the actors should reflect their characters' - as well as their fight styles - It is important NOT to get bogged down in the literal choreography
Just as it is important NOT to get bogged down in the camera shots.
Does one need to write the choreography for a dance scene? Do you need to include the labonotation? What about sex scenes? Where does the left hand go first?
Leave that to the people whose job it is to DIRECT that part of the script. The fight scenes should be written DESCRIPTIVELY not SPECIFICALLY. Does that make sense?
And believe me, if the choreographer is worth his pay - its NEVER some throway thing that they come up with.
A fight scene MUST be descriptive and evocative to provoke the clear image - yes. Important details need to be seemlessly stitched into the action - he gets cut where? What happened to the gun? The reader should have a sense of the excitement and ebb and flow of the fight.
The last paragraph of the link above is really relevant. When the actual fight is choreographed, it may not BE what you're writing - its the INTENT of the fight you have to convey - that is the most important thing.
While its true that your fight should be well thought out, and the motivations for the actors should reflect their characters' - as well as their fight styles - It is important NOT to get bogged down in the literal choreography
Just as it is important NOT to get bogged down in the camera shots.
Does one need to write the choreography for a dance scene? Do you need to include the labonotation? What about sex scenes? Where does the left hand go first?
Leave that to the people whose job it is to DIRECT that part of the script. The fight scenes should be written DESCRIPTIVELY not SPECIFICALLY. Does that make sense?
And believe me, if the choreographer is worth his pay - its NEVER some throway thing that they come up with.
A fight scene MUST be descriptive and evocative to provoke the clear image - yes. Important details need to be seemlessly stitched into the action - he gets cut where? What happened to the gun? The reader should have a sense of the excitement and ebb and flow of the fight.
The last paragraph of the link above is really relevant. When the actual fight is choreographed, it may not BE what you're writing - its the INTENT of the fight you have to convey - that is the most important thing.
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I didn't mean describe every punch and every kick.
But I mean that if your scene is effectively reflecting your characters, plot and theme it's going to take up as many pages as the actual fight scene will.
Here is a very bad example:
"[Villian] starts to gain the upper hand. [Hero] is backed into a corner but does not lose his cool. That is until [Villian] tosses [Hero] into the bookcase.
SMASH! The urn holding the ashes of [Hero's] dead mother crashes onto the floor, kicking up a small plume of dust. [Villian] laughs. Hero loses his cool."
You have to describe the flow of the fight, and how each character is reacting. If Hero lost his cool right away it'd say something much different about his character.
Look at the fight scenes in The Matrix and the purpose of each one. In Keanu's training session with Fishburne, you can see how impulsive Keanu is and how he gets angry (as angry as Keanu gets). But in later scenes, particularly when he starts to see the Matrix at the end, he has great confidence. He no longer acts that way when he's down. It's important to properly describe these scenes so that they have a purpose.
Each scene should have a goal for instance. There should be something the protagonist wants and something the antagonist wants.
I just think if you are describing all these elements that give the scene meaning and depth then it can't possibly be a paragraph long.
But I mean that if your scene is effectively reflecting your characters, plot and theme it's going to take up as many pages as the actual fight scene will.
Here is a very bad example:
"[Villian] starts to gain the upper hand. [Hero] is backed into a corner but does not lose his cool. That is until [Villian] tosses [Hero] into the bookcase.
SMASH! The urn holding the ashes of [Hero's] dead mother crashes onto the floor, kicking up a small plume of dust. [Villian] laughs. Hero loses his cool."
You have to describe the flow of the fight, and how each character is reacting. If Hero lost his cool right away it'd say something much different about his character.
Look at the fight scenes in The Matrix and the purpose of each one. In Keanu's training session with Fishburne, you can see how impulsive Keanu is and how he gets angry (as angry as Keanu gets). But in later scenes, particularly when he starts to see the Matrix at the end, he has great confidence. He no longer acts that way when he's down. It's important to properly describe these scenes so that they have a purpose.
Each scene should have a goal for instance. There should be something the protagonist wants and something the antagonist wants.
I just think if you are describing all these elements that give the scene meaning and depth then it can't possibly be a paragraph long.
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"I just think if you are describing all these elements that give the scene meaning and depth then it can't possibly be a paragraph long."
Well, that's the trick, isn't it?
I think we're on the same page here. The intent is the thing to convey. A fight scene is a form of dialogue. It ebbs and flows, there is subtext, there are feints and surprises and reveals, and pauses - yes.
But just as dialogue can be 'too on the nose' - just as it can slow the pace of the 'read' to go into in-depth descriptions of clothing or settings - its important to be succinct even in writing action.
On the one hand, Shakespeare wrote "They fight" - and believe me, the people in the audience KNEW a good fight when they saw one. On the other hand, Shakespeare was writing for HIMSELF. He knew what was in his mind, he knew the companies capabilities.
Yes, the fight scene should pace out to match (roughly) the pacing of the fight itself. A fight that runs a minute or two, should take a page or two of description. But that can include lines like.
They seperate.
Jack stares down at the blood pooling around Sam's shoes.
Sam looks down - the blood glistens in the streetlight. He reaches down inside himself, and finds a reserve of strength.
-------------
Moments in the fight where NOTHING happens can be as telling as a description of a particular blow - Or a combination of blows.
Bottom line, if the scene is confusing,its not working. If the reader gets distracted or bored - or is confused by unfamiliar terminology (no matter how 'correct' it might be to the expert) its going to slow the read.
Well, that's the trick, isn't it?
I think we're on the same page here. The intent is the thing to convey. A fight scene is a form of dialogue. It ebbs and flows, there is subtext, there are feints and surprises and reveals, and pauses - yes.
But just as dialogue can be 'too on the nose' - just as it can slow the pace of the 'read' to go into in-depth descriptions of clothing or settings - its important to be succinct even in writing action.
On the one hand, Shakespeare wrote "They fight" - and believe me, the people in the audience KNEW a good fight when they saw one. On the other hand, Shakespeare was writing for HIMSELF. He knew what was in his mind, he knew the companies capabilities.
Yes, the fight scene should pace out to match (roughly) the pacing of the fight itself. A fight that runs a minute or two, should take a page or two of description. But that can include lines like.
They seperate.
Jack stares down at the blood pooling around Sam's shoes.
Sam looks down - the blood glistens in the streetlight. He reaches down inside himself, and finds a reserve of strength.
-------------
Moments in the fight where NOTHING happens can be as telling as a description of a particular blow - Or a combination of blows.
Bottom line, if the scene is confusing,its not working. If the reader gets distracted or bored - or is confused by unfamiliar terminology (no matter how 'correct' it might be to the expert) its going to slow the read.
If you have a five minute fight scene in a film, then that is one hell of a fight scene. Five minutes of screen time? It's got to be an important element in the film. You can't leave that to someone else to flesh out later and expect people are going to read your script and have a clear understanding of what type of fight scene this is and how important it is going to be in the final film.
This might help...
From my blog...
http://theworkingscreenwriter.blogspot.com/2007/09/action-scenes.html
From my blog...
http://theworkingscreenwriter.blogspot.com/2007/09/action-scenes.html