Life is beautiful

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Judg

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Who knew a movie would make me feel better about my novel?

I've been stewing. Ever since Kristin Nelson wrote in her blog about the importance of determining the inciting incident, the one that is supposed to occur in the first 30-50 pages and that sets the whole story up, I have been stewing. I don't have one. At least not in the first part of the book. But I thought my novel worked anyway. But how am I supposed to write a query when I can't define that inciting incident?

Then the other day I was watching Roberto Benigni's Life is Beautiful with hubby. You know, the movie about how a Jewish father convinces his son that the concentration camp is a game with a real tank as a prize? That's what the movie is about, right? And it suddenly occurred to me that they don't get sent to the concentration camp until 2/3 of the way through the movie. Well over half of the movie is setup! And very entertaining and necessary setup it is too, or we'd never believe the last part of the movie.

I felt so much better. If you asked me what my book was about, I would have to talk about something that happens at least 2/3 of the way in. It took that long to set it up. I tried to make the setup as entertaining as possible, but it seemed to me to be necessary to understand and believe the decision that the protagonist comes to. And now I have a precedent to point to.

Which doesn't help me much in figuring out how to write the query, but at least I feel better.

Can anyone think of any other examples? Has anybody sold a book with a similar structure? How did you query it?
 

geardrops

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To be fair, I think Kristin was sifting through genre books whereas if Life is Beautiful were on the shelves, I'd slate it as more 'literary' which (sometimes) goes by different rules.

But yes, obviously it can be done :)
 

kuwisdelu

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Heh. Screw the rules. In half my short stories all the actions is in flashback. Just write well and make it meaningful and entertaining. That's all that matters.
 

Elodie-Caroline

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To me, life is a journey, so a book is a journey too. There's no set time for when things, if any thing at all, is going to happen. Just enjoy the ride for what it is.


Elodie
 

Nakhlasmoke

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I see where you're coming from and I actually agree with you. *hides*

How about adding in some more foreshadowing in the first part of the book, so that Poor Reader gets the feel that although the first third is all just setting events in motion, there will still be a pay off.
 

Priene

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Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections is the story of a family spending one last Christmas together, but the meeting doesn't actually occur until near the end. Most of the book is setup, in other words. So it can be done, but there's a danger that your readers will get bored, so it'll need plenty of sparkle.
 

LaceWing

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Ah, I think I get it. The inciting incident is back story, historical. Just get that in the query as "setting" and maybe it will fly.
 

Raphee

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Funny thing --- I just finished THE HONORARY CONSUL by Graham Greene.

He set up the inciting event early on. Yet somehow, I felt early on as something was wrong. The first part of his book just didn't gel.

I don't know either he started writing the novel as something else and it turned into something else. Or he shifted some scenes to get to the inciting event faster. I had to really struggle through the early part , 50 or so pages of his book. But the rest was glorious. Worth the early struggle.
 

MelancholyMan

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There's a rumor we're getting close...
I've been stewing. Ever since Kristin Nelson wrote in her blog about the importance of determining the inciting incident, the one that is supposed to occur in the first 30-50 pages and that sets the whole story up, I have been stewing. I don't have one. At least not in the first part of the book. But I thought my novel worked anyway. But how am I supposed to write a query when I can't define that inciting incident?

Ahh, you hit upon one of my greatest peeves in this industry. Product. Your book is a product, and as such, is expected to conform to certain rules. Writing is supposed to be creative, and it is, but the gatekeepers are not, in general, creative people - which is not to say they aren't smart or competent. Nor do they care about the emotional rush of your setup. If your book does not follow the traditional pattern, especially as a first novel, it will weigh strongly against you. At least that has been my experience and my observation. Here is a list of several huge determining factors an agent is probably going to look at:

Word Count
Structure
High Concept
Characters

This is not to say that your story isn't excellent or well written. This is not to say that your structure doesn't work. Or that your characters aren't the most compelling ones ever written. And therein lies my peeve against the industry. None of that matters. If it isn't something they recognize, it will make things more difficult. And when your odds are somewhere around 1000:1, more difficult is definitely going in the wrong direction. Unless you have contacts in the industry, or some other reason besides your emotional attachment to the story that you think will get it published, I would strongly recommend 'fixing' your manuscript. I know there's nothing 'wrong' with it, but this is about getting your product to market. I just spent 3 months cutting 60K words out of one of my manuscripts to improve marketability. Fix it. This is your chance to prove you are as creative as you're trying to convince them that you are. Fix it. Or you will have no chance. Sorry.

Good luck!
-MM
 
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Prawn

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It depends on the genre. I have a police procedural. Here is the first sentence: "Inspector Akiva stood over the girl’s body, gritting his teeth at the senselessness of it." In some genres you can't wait to introduce the conflict.

The thing that many writers miss is that you have to make sure that you have a likeable character. If you can make the characters people that the reader love, then they will be interested. If your characters are overly flawed, they'd better be the most fascinating people ever written about, or people won't care about them.

If life is beautiful had started in the concentration camp, we wouldn't have had time to fall in love with the characters, and their tragedies would have been much less meaningful to the reader.

Make us fall in love with them, and we will wait awhile for the real action of the story to begin.
 
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CaroGirl

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From what I've seen and read, queries don't need to follow the book's chronological order. Query Shark even says so.

If that's the case, you can begin your query with the "inciting incident", even though it, in fact, occurs much later in the story. As long as your query is interesting and the first 2 chapters have strong writing with sympathetic characters, I'm not that it matters all that much. Get readers interested; keep readers interested.

All the best, J!
 

maestrowork

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Again, I think films and books are different -- at least in today's world. Movies are short and there are also sights and sounds and stuff going on, so if we watch 60 minutes of backstories before getting to the inciting incident during the final half hour, it's okay. Even if the audience is bored, they only have wasted an hour. Sometimes there's a maguffin (such as in Psycho) so the real story doesn't even start until way later.

But books are a bit different. It's not to say it can't be done, but the "backstories" before the II better be really engaging and good, and when the "real" story happens, the readers won't feel cheated. That all the "set up" has a purpose. Otherwise, it's better to jump into the story quickly (IMHO, 60 pages is already a long way in -- Grisham did that with A Painted House for a bit over 60 pages and I was bored; it took me three tries to finish the book) -- and books don't have to be in chronological order. You can show us a bit of what happens to hook us, then spend 200 pages talking about what happened before... that's okay, as long as the readers are hooked.

Actually, the key is: as long as the readers are hooked.
 

Finni

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I don't think the beginning of Life is Beautiful is backstory.
Maybe to you the part about the concentration camp is the point of the movie. To me the movie is about family and fatherhood. The inciting incident is him meeting someone (notice there is conflict do to a triangle). From that moment on he will not be the same.

I think the concentration camp is a turning point. It is an obsticle for our hero.

I wish I could watch it again to go into more detail, but all my movies are still packed.
 

willietheshakes

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As maestro hinted at, there is, really, only one rule: it has to work for the reader.

If your story works, then anything is fair game.

If it doesn't work, then adherence to schools of thought, schema and "rules for success" don't matter a whit.
 

maestrowork

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I think Finni touches on a great point: It depends on what your story is about, and the II should be relevant to the "story." Life is Beautiful is about fatherhood and family (and not just the concentration camp)... so it seems that the II should be relevant to that. What agents/readers want is to know what your story is about sooner than later (within 60 pages?).
 

Judg

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I get your points. The first part of my story is not just back story, and many of the threads introduced play directly into what happens later. While it's essential to establish both the world and character, there are a couple of murders, love interests, a traitor working his way up the ladder, international conflict... None of these are gratuitous, they are integral parts of the plot.

It's possible that I'm missing what the book is "about". Thematically, it's about truth and power, so when the protagonist renounces power in favour of truth at a critical point in the history of his country and in his own personal life, things get very complicated. Before that, I spend a long time establishing the attitudes toward truth and power of the protagonist, the antagonist, and their world in general, through incidents that have a direct bearing on the central conflict. I don't really see any other way to do it.

Well, there is one possibility. I could get to the "point" early on, and use flashbacks or something. I tried writing it that way from the get-go, but seeing as this is a story that spans decades (centuries if you count the prologue) and three countries told from multiple viewpoints, adding chronological complications too was just too much.

I think it works the way I've structured it. My concern is that if I write a query based on the "inciting incident", an agent reading a partial might get annoyed at not finding it. Maybe I'm fussing about nothing, but Life is Beautiful made me feel a little better. I know the first part of the movie is important thematically, but it is what happens in the last part of the movie that is the "high concept" part, what makes it unique. Benigni just made sure that getting to it was very entertaining, as he established the character of his protagonist, the son and the society so that we could believe in the last part. In this sense, the structure is very, very similar to what I have done. Maybe I should find a way to explain that in the query.
 

Judg

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From what I've seen and read, queries don't need to follow the book's chronological order. Query Shark even says so.

If that's the case, you can begin your query with the "inciting incident", even though it, in fact, occurs much later in the story. As long as your query is interesting and the first 2 chapters have strong writing with sympathetic characters, I'm not that it matters all that much. Get readers interested; keep readers interested.

All the best, J!
You've read the first few chapters, Caro. The reaction of beta readers so far (I've only given out the first few chapters) has been that they want to keep reading. And those, with the exception of the first chapter aka prologue, are the quietest chapters in the book.
 

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I think the concept is misleading. There's a lot of nuance to consider.

In Life is Beautiful, they establish early that it is WWII Italy, and our hero is Jewish. Those facts do more to incite the rest of the movie than anything else.

In Crime and Punishment, the "inciting incident" is NOT the murder of the pawnbroker, it's the moment Raskalnakov becomes the kind of person who WILL murder the pawnbroker.

Books, movies, plays, it doesn't matter. Most of the ones I love let us glimpse the shadowy figure early on, as it creeps up around even the quietest most peaceful scenes, sometimes in the background, but always reaching for our throats. When it strikes we are startled, but not surprised.

I'd say the first 30 pages is too generous. I prefer to make it known on the first.
 

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Seems to me there's a language/definition breakdown going on here.

The inciting incident is the event that sets the characters and the story rolling. It disrupts whatever has come before, perhaps almost imperceptibly.

In Life is Beautiful, I would argue the inciting incident comes very early, when our hero meets the girl. That's the disruptor. Big plot-twisty things ensue, but without that one moment, you wouldn't have a story.

So what's your one moment? It doesn't have to be a big "hero's choice" type incident. Just...what disrupts the status quo and sets things (however slowly) into motion?
 

maestrowork

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Yeah, things can happen, but there's this point that sets everything important in motion. Maybe not quite the point of no return, but the characters definitely should take an important step that is relevant to the story. The problem with A Painted House, for example, is that nothing of the sort happens for over 60 pages. It's all set up and "facts of life" up until that point. Meanwhile, think about Psycho, even if the real story doesn't happen until she arrives at the motel, she still makes a choice that sets everything in motion (she stole the money and drove off). In Life is Beautiful, it's when he meets the girl.

In Cinema Paradiso, almost the entire thing is a flashback. It's nostalgic in tone anyway. But the story is about one's relationship with the past and the love of movies. So what is the inciting incident? The protagonist got a phone call -- that changes everything. Then the flashbacks come into play to flesh out why that phone call is so important.

So one question to ask yourself is: which event sets everything in motion that the hero/protagonist gets involved in the real story? That first step. That would be your inciting incident.
 
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Judg

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On a societal level, the potential for the conflict is established in the first chapter. Centuries later, the protagonist and antagonist choose different values that put them on a collision course. The first, highly intelligent, is a lover of knowledge and wisdom. The second, also highly intelligent and charming to boot, is a lover of power, and chooses treachery. Because of their gifts, they both rise to the top where a collision is inevitable. Then the protagonist has a major crisis of faith, rejects the underlying values of his society, loses his position, is himself seen as a traitor and must still defeat the real traitor. They first butt heads directly about halfway through, the crisis of faith comes after that and then all hell breaks loose. There are plenty of things happening in the setup, almost all of which play into the events at the end.

Choosing different values doesn't sound like much of an inspiring inciting incident, does it? Maybe I should ask my beta readers what they think kicks everything off.
 

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My novel (pub'd Dec 2007) has a very draaaaaaaawn-out start. It does go about 2/3 of the way into the text while setting up for the pivotal event(s). BUT it is literary fiction and it seems to work given the heavy subject matter. The reader needs to be gently led into the darkness of the character's world. The feedback I have gotten from critics has been very positive. I've only had a couple of people tell me that they thought it was a little slow in the begining - but they always qualify that by saying they usually just read "fluff" so this was a new experience for them.
It seems like there is more of an instant gratification formula for popular fiction -- the readership (and publishers) demand that. Literary fiction can get away with straying from the norm. So it really depends on your audience & genre.
 

Judg

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I keep seeing the L word in this thread. The book is fantasy, I'm afraid. Although I would be tickled pink if somebody thought it worth of the term "literary". My favourite books are genre that tilt toward literary, or literary with an obvious love of story-telling.
 

CaroGirl

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You've read the first few chapters, Caro. The reaction of beta readers so far (I've only given out the first few chapters) has been that they want to keep reading. And those, with the exception of the first chapter aka prologue, are the quietest chapters in the book.
I have indeed. I was actually hooked by the prologue. Chapter one begins in a scene-setting, character introduction, kind of way, which seems to work nicely for your story. There is some conflict and some foreshadowing, which is also good.

I'm not sure I can comment on the placement if your inciting incident, though, because I haven't read that far.

I hope to read more, though, when we all get back together in Sept!
 
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