Writing for kids, edgy fiction, and Teh Gay (split off from JKR's success thread)

I'm only going to refute this one point:

BlueLucario said:

I liked the Harry Potter series, but now that I found out about the “Dumbledore is gay” interview, I lost respect for her. She has no common sense at all. Is she not aware that she’s talking about a character from a children’s book? If my characters were gay, and if it’s important to the plot, then I’d put it there.

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Authors always know more about their world than they put into their story. Always.

So she knew Dumbledore was gay. It wasn't important to the story, so she never wrote it into the story proper. Doesn't make it any less true.

So what if he's gay? What does that change? He was never portrayed with any sort romantic tone. Or is it all right that Harry and Cho kissed, that Harry and Ginny got together, that Ron and Hermione hooked up, that the Weasley parents, the Granger parents, the Malfoy parents, are all married, but not that one character is homosexual?

This kind of vitriol about a character's sexuality is really kind of uncalled for. What, specifically is wrong with Dumbledore being gay?

BlueLucario said:

Kids are easier to please than adults, but it's harder to find child readers

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Blue, I don't know who your audience is, but if it's children, I wouldn't go in thinking they're easier to please. Kids are just as hard, if not harder, to capture than adults. Different kids have different likes and dislikes, and many kids want to be engrossed right away. If they find the book boring, they're not going to read it.

Adults may not like a popular children's series, but that doesn't mean children are easier to please. It means that they're different. Children's books are, after all, targeted to children to fit their interests.

I have more to say, but it's not coming out quite the way I wanted. I guess I just want to know why you think kids are easier to please. If J.K. Rowling had an adult series as popular as Harry Potter, would that gain more of your admiration and respect?

BlueLucario said:

Nothing is wrong with that. It's just that why would she talk about a character in a children's book. Parents a few years back were not very comfortable with the homosexuality subject, let alone having their kids discussing it. And second, why is she telling us this?

Why would she brag about her characters outside the story?

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Because she was interviewed about the characters in her story?

And homosexuality is a "touchy" subject because people keep making an issue out of it. Dumbledore never hit on anyone, never made a pass at a single person, was never so much as mentioned romantically in any context in the series. If she said he was straight, nobody would care. But she says he's gay and suddenly it's an issue?

Seriously, being heterosexual and homosexual shouldn't be treated differently. I'd find it appalling that people raise more of a stink about Dumbledore being gay than other problems in the series, like the outright abuse Harry goes through that isn't even noticed within the school system.

And anyway. It's her story. She got interviewed. She's allowed to say those things about her series.

BlueLucario said:

What do you mean what's the point? *scratches head*

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Because your "rant" was filled with baseless untruths, prejudices, misperceptions and/or mis-rememberings and errors in judgement.

And given how vehemently you were expressing these, it was clear you were pretty attached to them, so why bother? No one is going to be talked out of prejudices and the like, so why waste my time?

BlueLucario said:

Parents a few years back were not very comfortable with the homosexuality subject, let alone having their kids discussing it.

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First off, to my recollection it was adults who made a big deal of Dumbledore's sexual orientation -- most kids didn't give a shit.

And secondly, any parent "uncomfortable with the homosexuality subject" needs to pull their head out of the sand.

From what I recall, which could be somewhat fuzzy, she was specifically asked about Dumbledore. As a writer, and a reader, I'd expect another writer to be truthful about their characters. And either way, it shouldn't matter.

Like Dempsey said, there were a lot of other things, worse things, in that book that if anyone should have been concerned about, it should have been those and not Dumbledore's sexuality. Now, if she managed to change her last book and worked his homosexuality INTO it, then perhaps it would be more of a problem considering the age range these books are aimed for, but she didn't.

BlueLucario said:

Some adult readers however can be slightly picky when it comes to story details. It can be awkward if those readers spot something innaccurate and implausible. It doesn't happen that often in children.

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I have an 8 year old who would vehemently disagree with this.

BlueLucario:
The only thing I wonder about J.K Rowling is how she was able to attract so many readers. Not money, fame or anything. Kids are easier to please than adults, but it's harder to find child readers.

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She made a lollipop tree.

BlueLucario:
It's just that why would she talk about a character in a children's book. Parents a few years back were not very comfortable with the homosexuality subject, let alone having their kids discussing it.

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And? Homosexuality is not taboo in children's or YA fiction. If you're planning to write for children or teenagers then you should really go and check out your market. Sugar Rush by Julie Burchill has lesbian protagonists and Tithe and Ironside by Holly Black have a gay male character. And those are just three books I can think of off the top of my head.

I would also second what Provrb1810meggy said that writing for kids is in no way at all easier than writing for adults. If anything, kids are harder to cater for because if you're writing something they're not interested in, they won't read it full stop.

BlueLucario:
Why would she brag about her characters outside the story? Aren't books supposed to stand on their own?

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Successful authors, who write something that catches the public's imagination, get asked questions about their work all the time. If books stood on their own, we wouldn't study English Literature at school.

You want to know why Rowling told people that Dumbledore was gay? It's because she was asked the following question:

Did Dumbledore, who believed in the prevailing power of love, ever fall in love himself?

There's a transcript of her full answer here.

MM

I'm an author (an obscure one, so far) and I admire and support J. K. Rowling.

And I knew that Dumbledore was gay from the book itself. It was very clear to me that the particular language used in Elphias Doge's eulogy was meant to be reminiscent of the language used by late 19th and early 20th century gay writers like Oscar Wilde, Norman Douglas, and Lytton Strachey.

I was just surprised that she said it. It was extremely obvious to me from the Doge material that she was imagining the magical milieu of Dumbledore's youth as something quite analogous to "the Apostles" and other intellectual societies made up largely of gay and bisexual men.

Blue Lucario said:

I think you should read the Orson Scott Card article, that I've linked.

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Please understand that Orson Scott Card, who is a highly talented and successful writer, is also an extremely tendentious social conservative.

We talked about this at the time. My attitude is gay people exist, gay children exist and the idea that an author should have to hide, or lie about, a character's romantic orientation is ridiculous.

I have an 8 yo who absolutely delights in finding mistakes, inaccuracies and plot holes in published novels. Sometimes she misreads, but most of the time she's right on. I think I have a budding editor on my hands, bless her.

Children are a far tougher audience than adults, hands down. They're very difficult to please and it's almost impossible to know what they'll love and what will bore them to tears. I've read about a hundred novels aloud to my kids and it amazes me what they thoroughly enjoy vs what they can't stand.

Also, any writer who doesn't know his audience should probably stop writing immediately. IMO, you should always know your audience; even if you're writing for yourself, at least you know who you are.

BlueLucario:
I think you should read the Orson Scott Card article, that I've linked. That might show you what I'm talking about.

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What makes you think I haven't read the article? I read it back when it first appeared on the web. You know what makes Orson lose credibility in it? His reference to the Nancy Stouffer case - that case was thrown out of court and the judge criticised for Stouffer for irregularities in her evidence. The fact that Orson cites it to support the sound of his grinding axe really dented the credibility of his views. In my opinion.

I think that you should read the court transcripts so that you can see the whole thing in context, rather than the edited highlights reproduced by an author who didn't like Rowling a whole lot to begin with.

BlueLucario:
But children have like less experience in life than adults. Some adult readers however can be slightly picky when it comes to story details. It can be awkward if those readers spot something innaccurate and implausible. It doesn't happen that often in children.

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Agents are adults. Publishers are adults. They all read the books first and made sure the book hung together. The fact that half the fandom base for the HP series are adults means that your argument is complete crap.

BlueLucario:
I hope I don't come off as condensending, just expressing what I think.

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You don't come off as condescending. You do come off as ill-informed and poorly researched.

MM

CaroGirl said:

I have an 8 yo who absolutely delights in finding mistakes, inaccuracies and plot holes in published novels.

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Is it possible we're married, with children, and I've just forgotten? I mean, I don't spend enough time with my family, so it's conceivable...

CaroGirl said:

Sometimes she misreads, but most of the time she's right on. I think I have a budding editor on my hands, bless her.

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Ah! She. Her. Whew! My mini-pedant is a he.

And I doubt an 8-year-old just now picking up the Potter books is going to say, "Mommy, mommy, mommy, the big wizard is GAY."

Besides, what the heck difference does it make? It's not like Dumbledore is fornicating in the little boys' room.

Leave that to the fanfics. I'm sure the teens will find those in no time.

BlueLucario said:

You know what, that Rowling is really starting to piss me off. I used to idolize her, and copied how she writes her stories hoping my story would be a good as hers. I liked the Harry Potter series, but now that I found out about the “Dumbledore is gay” interview, I lost respect for her. She has no common sense at all. Is she not aware that she’s talking about a character from a children’s book? If my characters were gay, and if it’s important to the plot, then I’d put it there.

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It's a note in the margins on the character's history. It wasn't important to the plot because if she put it in, that's all the general public would focus on: an openly gay character in a children's book. It would have detracted from the rest of the story.

And what kind of author, would brag about who’s going to die in her newest book? Now I wonder if she kills off characters just to server her plot or to please the readers.

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It's called stirring up interest or drumming up business or creating publicity or what-have-you. Even the big TV shows do it during the summer to let fans know they need to continue watching. Besides, having characters die would be crucial to the story, considering the nature of the wizarding world and the events.

She is well respected among her fans, but she does not have the support of other authors, and not out of sour grapes. Even talented author Orson Scott Card himself doesn’t like her.

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Quelle horror. Orson Scott Card doesn't like her. Eek. Eek. Shriek. Scream. Shriek. God forbid not everybody in the universe cares for her, and MOST OF ALL Orson Scott Card. BFD. Is he The Standard By Which All Others Are Measured?

In my opinion, her success and publicity has really gone to her head. She would sue a small publisher who would publish a book designed specifically for HP fans, because it was ‘theft of her work’ and it ‘ruined’ her creativity. Gee, Rowling are you sure that is was the Lexicon that caused your writer’s block and not the fact that you’re wasting time and distracting yourself when you could have worked on something new?

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I'm not going over this one again. Others have pointed it out.

I planned on writing a series, like what Rowling did. But someone gave me some really good advice. This is by far the best advice I have ever gotten. I figured out the reason why I should take this seriously. I noticed that Rowling hasn’t written anything different since her writing career first started. Which led her to be so completely absorbed into her stories, that by the time the series was over with, she complained that she was out of ideas for her next book and blamed others for it. If it weren’t for the advice that was given to me, that could have happened to me.

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What blame where? Oh, you the mean she was stressed out over having to deal with intellectual property theft and outright plagiarism? God forbid, then, the woman needs to take a pill and get over herself. Too bad she doesn't have any real problems to deal with.

So how exactly has J.K Rowling done it? What’s her big secret? I don’t know, and I don’t care. I don’t care for wealth or fame. I only care about being read. And unless she wants to lose her fans, she better hurry up and come up with next big thing, instead of wasting time with a lawsuit that she’s probably going to lose anyway.

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Her fans will always be there. One of my favorite authors is usually three to four years between books, but I haven't abandoned him. And how do you account for authors who have been dead for years, if not decades or centuries, whose works still sell (hello, Jane Austen? Charles Dickens? Homer and Plato?) Or the one-hit-wonders (Harper Lee, anybody?) whose only book can be found in bookstores and shelves around the world?

And by the way, keep this in mind. Accept the fact that unless you’ve written at least a million words in your career, your writing is going to stink. There’s no getting around it, and there’s no changing it. This is great advice given to me from a good friend.

I’m done ranting. Now I got a book to finish.

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Speak for yourself.

willietheshakes said:

Is it possible we're married, with children, and I've just forgotten? I mean, I don't spend enough time with my family, so it's conceivable...



Ah! She. Her. Whew! My mini-pedant is a he.

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Hey, I know you...

Maybe our budding mini-pedants should get together sometime for a little criticism and 8 yo romance. You know, like he could pull her hair and she could stomp on his foot.

BlueLucario said:

You know what, that Rowling is really starting to piss me off. I used to idolize her, and copied how she writes her stories hoping my story would be a good as hers. I liked the Harry Potter series, but now that I found out about the “Dumbledore is gay” interview, I lost respect for her. She has no common sense at all. Is she not aware that she’s talking about a character from a children’s book? If my characters were gay, and if it’s important to the plot, then I’d put it there. And what kind of author, would brag about who’s going to die in her newest book? She is well respected among her fans, but she does not have the support of some other authors, and not out of sour grapes. Even talented author Orson Scott Card himself doesn’t like her. In my opinion, her success and publicity has really gone to her head. She would sue a small publisher who would publish a book designed specifically for HP fans, because it was ‘theft of her work’ and it ‘ruined’ her creativity. Gee, Rowling are you sure that is was the Lexicon that caused your writer’s block and not the fact that you’re wasting time and distracting yourself when you could have worked on something new?

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Because if Orson Scott Card doesn't like her, then NO ONE should like her, right?

Hey, go look up the actual case and don't just read Card's slant on it. There was a thread about it on this very forum, and I believe Rowling received quite a bit of support. As I recall, the kid was trying to publish what had been available for free on the web, yes? Why should he be allowed to make money off HER work? I think that was the main question asked.

Oh, and one more thing:


And by the way, keep this in mind. Accept the fact that unless you’ve written at least a million words in your career, your writing is going to stink. There’s no getting around it, and there’s no changing it. This is great advice given to me from a good friend.

...actually, I have nothing to say about that, aside from the fact that it's baseless. I agree that the more you write, the better you get (usually), but just because you haven't written a million words doesn't mean you're going to stink.

CaroGirl said:

Hey, I know you...

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But just so we're clear - that wasn't you in the kitchen this morning, right?

Cuz if it was, sorry -- I ate the plums that were in the icebox. Forgive me, but they were delicious, so sweet, and so cold. I hope you weren't saving them...

CaroGirl said:

Maybe our budding mini-pedants should get together sometime for a little criticism and 8 yo romance. You know, like he could pull her hair and she could stomp on his foot.

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He's more of the harp-playing type.

I, on the other hand, still believe in the old hair pull, foot stomp courtship.

BlueLucario:
I'm just a child, who loves anime, and this book is targeted to anime fans. But I don't know what age group this should be in. Some say my book is too dangerous in YA territory.

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Finish the book first, worry about the market later.

There's a YA Forum here on AW with a list of suggestions for edgy fiction, so please stop making assumptions as to whether your book is too dark or too dangerous or too whatever. You don't know the market, so you need to learn. That means reading books stocked on the YA shelves. Unless the people telling you your book is "too dangerous" work for YA publishers or are agents who specialise in YA, stop listening to them.

MM

BlueLucario:
Err, did I say that half of the harry potter fandom are adults?

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No, you assumed that it was a book that was only read by children when you said:

Is she not aware that she’s talking about a character from a children’s book?

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or

The only thing I wonder about J.K Rowling is how she was able to attract so many readers. Not money, fame or anything. Kids are easier to please than adults, but it's harder to find child readers.

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You're forgetting that it's a book originally aimed at children that was sophisticated enough to gain 'cross-over' appeal for adult readers. That's something that publishers have been deperate to emulate ever since.

BlueLucario:
It was also rumored that this was plagarized. I looked into amazon for "Larry Potter." and it got some bad reviews, so yeah, that rumor's probably bogus.

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It was rumoured that what was plagiarised?

Why are you spending 8 hours searching for stuff slagging off Rowling when you could be writing?

MM

Oof.
Okay, y'all are making me earn my keep here. Moved the contentful OT posts from the JKR thread here. Have at.