Is This plagarism?

Mike Martyn · Apr 19, 2005

Half way through writing my first novel, I came up with this great name for the supernatural evil dudes. "The Great Old Ones" One of them I called Yesgerith. I was of proud of myself!

Now I've suddenly realized that H.P Lovecraft used the same term for his supernatural evil dudes in a story I'd read about 40 years ago when I was 13! He also had a demon called Yosgoroth (sp)! How wierd is that!

If I still used the terms, would it be plagarism? It would resonate nicely for anyone who ever read Lovecraft. It certainly must have resonated for me otherwise my subconscious wouldn't have dredged up a 40 year old memory.

Julie Worth · Apr 19, 2005

Mike Martyn said:
Half way through writing my first novel, I came up with this great name for the supernatural evil dudes. "The Great Old Ones" One of them I called Yesgerith. I was of proud of myself!

Now I've suddenly realized that H.P Lovecraft used the same term for his supernatural evil dudes in a story I'd read about 40 years ago when I was 13! He also had a demon called Yosgoroth (sp)! How wierd is that!

If I still used the terms, would it be plagarism? It would resonate nicely for anyone who ever read Lovecraft. It certainly must have resonated for me otherwise my subconscious wouldn't have dredged up a 40 year old memory.

Using a word isn't plagiarism. Most every word we use was invented by somebody sometime or other.

pepperlandgirl · Apr 19, 2005

I think the worse that could happen would be the reader saying, "Dude, he just ripped off Lovecraft" and throwing your novel across the room.

Of course, by then, they already paid for it, so what's it to you?

Patricia · Apr 19, 2005

You know, I had the same situation. What really blew me away was it was the same names of charators within the same genre. I had read the book, but had forgotten the names of the charactors. Something struck a cord and I went back and checked. My hunch was correct. Well, it would not have been that big of a deal, except it was within the same genre. I changed them, because I didn't want anyone even remotely thinking I was into plagiarism. Plagiarism is not a good rep to have as a writer. I say, if you have any doubt at all, or don't feel comfortable about using the names, don't.

zeprosnepsid · Apr 19, 2005

it's an homage! People love homages in film. I don't know how well it goes off in writing. But someone will think it's cute.

Note On · Apr 19, 2005

Mike Martyn said:
Yesgerith. ...Yosgoroth

Whether it's plagiarism or not, I'd say it's too close. Readers will be thinking about Lovecraft and wondering what the hell you're doing instead of paying attention to your story.

Also don't name a detective Sam Spode, and don't set fantasies in Nernia.

Maryn · Apr 19, 2005

Now I can't remember who it was, but some wise person here at AW told us that s/he googles the name of every major character, to check against living people and for identically-named characters. I wasn't sure the fictional ones would come up, but hey, at least it's worth a shot.

Maryn

Deleted member 42 · Apr 19, 2005

Mike Martyn said:
Half way through writing my first novel, I came up with this great name for the supernatural evil dudes. "The Great Old Ones" One of them I called Yesgerith. I was of proud of myself!

Now I've suddenly realized that H.P Lovecraft used the same term for his supernatural evil dudes in a story I'd read about 40 years ago when I was 13! He also had a demon called Yosgoroth (sp)!.

That's not the name I remember from Lovecraft, though it's similar. Are you sure? I'd probably go with another name anyway, since it's certainly similar.

Uncle Jim would be a good person to ask.

HConn · Apr 19, 2005

"The Old Ones" are Lovecraft monsters. Lots of people have used them, and if you want to be firmly in hte Lovecraftian tradition, you can, too.

Patricia · Apr 19, 2005

HConn said:
"The Old Ones" are Lovecraft monsters. Lots of people have used them, and if you want to be firmly in hte Lovecraftian tradition, you can, too.

You are correct, HConn. I was referring more to the names of the charactors themselves. But I just noticed that the spelling is different too. Where as mine were same spelling. I should have read a second time before responding.

Julie Worth · Apr 19, 2005

Of course he can reuse the names! If writers couldn't do that, they’d run out. You’d have Yesgerith238 or something.

Patricia · Apr 19, 2005

Julie Worth said:
Of course he can reuse the names! If writers couldn't do that, they’d run out. You’d have Yesgerith238 or something.

I am talking about unique names as the ones mentioned. Not everyday names like Mark, David, etc.

A unique name within the same genre would make, me, as a reader wonder if the author was copying.

My name was the same first and last name for the same type of story line. So I was offering my experience to help Mike reach his decision. He alone knows how close the story line and charactors are in similarity.

Kasey Mackenzie · Apr 19, 2005

I wouldn't worry so much about "The Old Ones," as I've seen that used as a name in several different books. One that comes immediately to mind is Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" sequence, which was a series of YA fantasy novels. Now, I might worry more if I had a name that was only a few letters different from the name used in another book where both use "The Old Ones" as a name for a group of people. Especiall if it's in the same or a similar genre.

Patricia · Apr 19, 2005

Kasey Mackenzie said:
I wouldn't worry so much about "The Old Ones," as I've seen that used as a name in several different books. One that comes immediately to mind is Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" sequence, which was a series of YA fantasy novels. Now, I might worry more if I had a name that was only a few letters different from the name used in another book where both use "The Old Ones" as a name for a group of people. Especiall if it's in the same or a similar genre.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

Samuel Dark · Apr 19, 2005

Mike Martyn said:
Half way through writing my first novel, I came up with this great name for the supernatural evil dudes. "The Great Old Ones" One of them I called Yesgerith. I was of proud of myself!

Now I've suddenly realized that H.P Lovecraft used the same term for his supernatural evil dudes in a story I'd read about 40 years ago when I was 13! He also had a demon called Yosgoroth (sp)! How wierd is that!

If I still used the terms, would it be plagarism? It would resonate nicely for anyone who ever read Lovecraft. It certainly must have resonated for me otherwise my subconscious wouldn't have dredged up a 40 year old memory.

And if I remember correctly, Stephen King used the term "The Great Old Ones" as some old people that were...um...great (in The Dark Tower Seires). So its should be cool!

Steve 211 · Apr 19, 2005

I was at a nursing home yesterday that was full of The Old Ones. They're also the records I like the best.

Seriously, though, I think you'd be fine unless Yosgoroth was an Old One - then it's kind of borrowing twice. Like having a group of Outsiders would be cool, or someone named Two Bit, but you don't want to have them both at the same time.

That said, homages are cool. Recently I saw "Minority Report," and found plenty of homages - in the character naming, images, and music - in the trivia section of IMDB:

The "PreCogs" were all named after famous mystery writers. Dashiell Hammett, Arthur Conan Doyle, and Agatha Christie.

The opening sequence is a homage to Alfred Hitchcock. The scissors: Dial M for Murder (1954), the eye glasses: Strangers on a Train (1951), and the prolonged shot of the eye: Psycho (1960).

The opening part of the sound track by John Williams echoes that of Vangelis' score in Blade Runner (1982), with the booming noises and a black screen, before the opening scene fades in.

Mike Martyn · Apr 19, 2005

Ann said:
I am talking about unique names as the ones mentioned. Not everyday names like Mark, David, etc.

A unique name within the same genre would make, me, as a reader wonder if the author was copying.

My name was the same first and last name for the same type of story line. So I was offering my experience to help Mike reach his decision. He alone knows how close the story line and charactors are in similarity.

**** Thanks for yur comments. My novel hasn't "decided" yet what genre it's actually in, horror or SCi Fi ( or possibly horrible SCi Fi!) The story line is very different though. Lovecraft scared the crap out of me when I was 13 which may be why I remember the names. I'll go with it and see what pops up on rewrites.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 19, 2005

The name you're thinking of is Yog-Sothoth.

From "The Dunwich Horror" by H. P. Lovecraft.

Nor is it to be thought that man is either the oldest or the last of earth's masters, or that the common bulk of life and substances walks alone. The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread. By Their smell can men somtimes know them near, but of Their semblance can no man know, saving only in the features of those They have begotten on mankind; and of those are there many sorts, differing in likeness from man's truest eidolon to that shape without sight or substance which is Them. They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath? The ice desert of the South and the sunken isles of Ocean hold stones where Their seal is engraven, but who hath seen the deep frozen city or the sealed tower long garlanded with seaweed and barnacles? Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly. Iä! Shub-Niggurath! As a foulness shall ye know Them. Their hand is at your throats, yet ye see Them not; and Their habitation is even one with your guarded threshold. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet. Man rules now where They ruled once; They shall soon rule where man rules now. After summer is winter, and after winter summer. They wait patient and potent, for here shall They reign again.

Anatole Ghio · Apr 19, 2005

I agree with the thought that plagerism isn't so much the issue as authorial intent. Is it your intent to refer to the Lovecraft mythos? Will the readers of your book be familiar with the reference and if so, what do you gain?

Be aware that such an homage will take the readers out of the work and will seem out of place unless there is a reason for the similarity. Their first assumption will be plagerism.

I wouldn't do it unless you are prepared to directly address the similarity and make it part of your story.

Jaws · Apr 20, 2005

Maryn said:
Now I can't remember who it was, but some wise person here at AW told us that s/he googles the name of every major character, to check against living people and for identically-named characters. I wasn't sure the fictional ones would come up, but hey, at least it's worth a shot.

I do legal reviews for an author-friendly publisher (Hi there, Keltora! Remember me?). That's just part of what I dobut the main concern is usually trademark, not copyright infringement or "plagiarism" (which is actually an offense against academic conduct codes, not a legal cause of action).

Turning back to the original question, it is possible that the kind of coincidence stated to start the thread might infringe a trademark, although not under these circumstances. Lovecraft wasn't the first to refer to ancient (presumably evil) deities as "old ones"; there are passages in the Homerica referring to the Titans as something approximating "elder gods," Dunsany referred to the "old gods," and so on. So this particular example is relatively clean. Certainly, most people know only about Lovecraft, because most speculative fiction and horror readers don't/haven't read enough outside of the stuff labelled as part of their category(ies) of interest. Most readers who would pick up the book in the first place would assume that it's a Lovecraft reference and get over it. However, if you're naming your starship captain "Kirk", you've got problems, because that is a strong mark. Similarly, without giving details, a legal review as described in the first paragraph required an author to change a lot of character names because they were drawn from a video game.

Keep in mind that at the copyright level, independent conception is a defense. That's why I recommend that people keep notes for the "cool stuff" that describes where they got it from, and when. It's a good legal tool, and it's also good for going back later to expand one's research or check for consistency. We're not talking about something that one might turn in as part of the notes for an eighth-grade research paper; just dated notes.

fallenangelwriter · Apr 20, 2005

Regardless of the legal issues, there is a more pressing question: if people remeber yog-sothoth and connect it with Yesgerith, what will they think about that, and is it a good or bad thng?

plenty of legal things are inadvisable.

James D. Macdonald · Apr 20, 2005

Lovecraft got The Old Ones from Robert W. Chambers, who got 'em from Ambrose Bierce. Where Bierce got 'em is anyone's guess. It's entirely possible that he got 'em from the Greeks. Or from independent creation.

To add to the confusion, Lovecraft gave some of his friends permission to use the Cthulu-mythos material in their own works (August Derleth and Clark Ashton Smith). To further add to the confusion, Lovecraft worked as a copyeditor in the heyday of pulps, and would sometimes insert Cthulu-mythos references into other authors' works when he was feeling bored or whimsical. (What those other authors thought about this isn't recorded.)

See also: Will You Be Eaten First? And who will ever forget "It's the Great Old Ones, Charlie Brown!"? Any number of trademarks and copyrights are apparently violated there....

Mike Martyn · Apr 20, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
The name you're thinking of is Yog-Sothoth.

From "The Dunwich Horror" by H. P. Lovecraft.

Thanks for the qoute, Uncle Jim. Even after 40 years, that quote from the Dunwich Horror still creaps me out. I'm such a wuss!

One a more serious note, Yesgerith in my novel is attempting to create a gate to let the Great Old Ones back into the world. It's astonishing to me how much of that stuff I must have absorbed as a kid to recreate Lovecraft's story so closely.

soloset · Apr 20, 2005

Ann said:
You know, I had the same situation. What really blew me away was it was the same names of charators within the same genre. I had read the book, but had forgotten the names of the charactors. Something struck a cord and I went back and checked. My hunch was correct. Well, it would not have been that big of a deal, except it was within the same genre. I changed them, because I didn't want anyone even remotely thinking I was into plagiarism. Plagiarism is not a good rep to have as a writer. I say, if you have any doubt at all, or don't feel comfortable about using the names, don't.

This is known as "cryptomnesia", and apparently, lots of people have done it. The memory is a funny place.

Oh, to stay on topic... yeah, I agree! In my case, it's not so much that I don't want people thinking I plagiarized as much as I don't want someone who has read both works to make associations I didn't intend.

Sunder · Apr 20, 2005

you're kind of stuck

If you have a character trying to create a gate to let "The Great Old Ones" in, you're going to have many readers making Cthulhu Mythos associations. Period. Half the early Mythos stories were about someone letting The Great Old Ones in from, well, someplace else. "Yesgerith" doesn't sound/read much like "Yog-Sothoth" at all, but with the parallel you already have it won't matter. If you don't desire this association, you will have to change the name of your Great Old Ones, or radically change the events in the novel. Even if you have thoroughly documented your independent conception of the term, readers won't care; a significant percentage of them are going to think, "Hey, it's a Mythos novel!" or "Yuck, the stupid Cthulhu Mythos again."
Oh, for the record, and because I don't want my soul eaten: Yog-Sothoth is not a demon.

Is This plagarism?

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