explain the process of writing a novel to me!

robotdg · Jul 19, 2008

So I am a professional screenwriter -- mildly successful -- I am full-time and make my living doing it.

I have been listening to podcasts about writing novels and reading blogs by authors and generally just paying attention to novel writers lately.

I have been confused lately at what seems to me a very different practice in novels: novelists generally have a fixed number of drafts they do on a story.

This is different than my experience in screenplays. The number of words in a screenplay means that often we do countless drafts of it. We work and rework it like a piece of poetry. And in doing so it is VERY difficult to predict when we are done.

But novelists, it seems, have a different approach... I hear people talk about doing "x words per day" and then calculating the completion of their novel at y weeks away (including one rewrite and a polish, or somesuch).

So some questions:

What does a typical draft process look like? Does a novelist typically write a draft at X words per day. Then rewrite it once and declare it done?

I know I am asking a question that really one has one true answer... "it depends on the writer." But putting that aside are there any generalities that people could describe about how drafts and rewrites work when you are wrestling with 100,000 words instead of the 12,000 in a typical screenplay...

CheshireCat · Jul 19, 2008

I have been confused lately at what seems to me a very different practice in novels: novelists generally have a fixed number of drafts they do on a story.

I believe you've misunderstood. Novelists may have a "set" number of drafts they tend to do; I tend to do three drafts, two for myself and one for the editor in a round of revisions. But sometimes she believes the book needs a final polish before the copyedit, so it's four "drafts."

But each author is different. Some get the bones of the story down, and then do several drafts to layer-on the muscle and meat. Some revise and polish as they go, which means that by the time they write the final chapter, they basically have one complete draft that goes to the editor -- possibly for revisions.

For us, it's less about the length of a piece (usually) than about content. We make it as good as we can, and then the editor (and sometimes the agent) offers input from requests and suggestions to questions and nitpicks.

As for the draft process, that really does vary widely among authors. I know some who do divide up the number of words they need by their average output to calculate how many working days they'll need to produce the book, thus being able to aim with fair accuracy for deadlines. Some shoot for a specific number of words per working day, or pages per day, or whichever goal is most comfortable for them.

What works for you is what works for you. Period. It doesn't really matter what anyone else does.

blacbird · Jul 19, 2008

robotdg said:
novelists generally have a fixed number of drafts they do on a story.

No, they don't. There is no "one" process; everybody does it in whatever manner suits them best, and it often varies even with a given individual, depending on the nature of the project. In fact, if even can vary within the work on a single given project.

I'd say the biggest difference in writing a novel, from the perspective of a screenwriter, is that the novelist must both combine the work of a screenwriter (emphasis on dialogue) and a director (emphasis on scene and staging), within the prose itself.

Other than that, the rule is: There is no rule.

caw

bethany · Jul 19, 2008

Yep. No process except the one the individual finds works for them, and which may not work for all projects.

regdog · Jul 19, 2008

Each writer has their own way of doing things. Some write a set number of words or pages per day and others write whatever comes to them as it comes to them.

There can be any number of drafts and edits depending on the editor agent etc. Writing styles are very individual

Mr. Fix · Jul 19, 2008

How do I edit thee, let me count the ways...

I have one story that I've been working on for - about twenty years! So I have "thousands" of draftsof it so far.

I generally start with a premise, maybe a paragraph long, and then add "meat" to it as I go along.

So now that I've finished my first WIP (which I guess is still a WIP) I have a 'single' draft of it. As I am now revising it on the computer I will have a new version and yet it will still be the 'single' draft. I have no idea what the "editing" prossess is like yet. So I may end up, yet again, revising. :e2writer:

I listen to every one here - and then do it my way. No one here has yet told me "This is the way to write a novel" and I'm glad. Because I'd just end up breaking that rule too. :Hammer:

Good Luck. (I think If you've found a "little success" in screen writing you're one up on me.) :Thumbs:

maestrowork · Jul 19, 2008

There really is no one process and no one set number of drafts. Some people have one or two drafts, and some have 20.

The only thing that matters is the final ms. that goes to the agent or editor. That's what the novelist aims for.

Mumut · Jul 19, 2008

I work by the rule; the length of a story is the number of words it takes to tell it. I have the main story and main sub-plots in my head, then I write when I have time and inclination. I don't have to have it finished by a certain date so I don't write every day (or even every week, if I'm on AW too much!)

I edit as I go. I get a feeling I'm too far ahead of myself and re-read the work to date. Then I continue until the next feeling comes along. When the book is finished I edit it many times. I read it out loud to make sure it reads smoothly, I read it in detail to make sure every word I've chosen is the best one for that situation and I read it for general story continuity.

My family and a number of betas read it and I re-read the whole story if I accept a substantial change or addition from one of them. So for me, the original writing is certainly not the main part of the process and there is no set number of anything.

Matera the Mad · Jul 19, 2008

All the numbers crap and drafts crap is just crap. Some people need crap. There is no novel process, there is only writing and revision, all of it made difficult by silly superstitions about fonts and worse things.
:tongue

Alexandra Little · Jul 19, 2008

robotdg said:
What does a typical draft process look like? Does a novelist typically write a draft at X words per day. Then rewrite it once and declare it done?

So far I'm on about the third draft, and yet I'll only be completing the novel this time around. For me, the first draft is all about the ideas and the characters, the second is for fleshing it out more, and this current draft that will actually be the finished product will still be only the bare essentials-- actions and dialogue that I know I need in there, and making sure the plot fits together.

Because I write in spurts and not in order (I might work on chapter one, then chapter ten, then go back to chapter four, etc) there are a lot of plot inconsistencies in this draft, which means I will have to go back again to fix (a fourth draft).

The fifth draft will be focused on smoothing things out--make sure that I'm not info dumping and that my descriptions match what I want to convey. The *sixth* draft will be to make sure I have no grammatical and spelling errors (in that this is a fantasy book, my word processor automatically marks names as wrong, so I ignore the red squiggly lines).

This is me. I know published author Holly Lisle advocates a "one-pass revision method" on her website, which doesn't work for me.

As for word counts and such, I've been aiming for 70,000-80,000 words (I'm writing YA fantasy), with about 4,000 words a chapter (although they vary from 3,500 to 5,000). I came up with this number through my own experience--I know that when I write a scene, it is usually either 2,000 words or 4,000 words, with an occasional difference.

I've been writing about 3,000 words a day in July because I need to get this draft finished by the end of the month. This is hardly regular though--I first got the idea a year and a half ago, and with college I had to take days off (I took off most of April and all of May because of all the performing arts finals I had). And at the end of August when school starts again, my new novel will also probably be written in spurts, taking a week or two off here and there as my assignments get heavy.

Gillhoughly · Jul 19, 2008

I'm a novelist who is working on screenplays--so I know where you're coming from!

1--There are no fixed number of drafts for novels. You work it until you're happy with the end product, whether it takes 2 drafts or 200.

2- You are happily NOT limited (too much) on page count. You can work a lot more character development into 400 pages, vs. 40 or 120!

3- A novelist's work output depends on deadlines, and how many words they can write per day before the brain turns to oatmeal. I can do 500-2200 per day but I have done up to 5000 words when I'm really into it. Some days I can't write anything, but I'll sit in front of the keyboard no matter what!

4-- There are no rules, no standards, you do whatever it is that works for you to get words on a page.

A novel is a solitary process; you are the one who has to like the end product. You don't have to worry about some director or actor swanning in to change your words! (Just an editor, but one thing at a time!)

What's a typical draft look like? There's no answer to that.

When I started it was hard copy off a typewriter and had more red ink than typing for all the changes on each page. I used to rewrite about 95% of EVERYTHING.

As the years passed and I got better at the craft my percentage went down, so I was rewriting from 5-10%.

Now in the computer age I rewrite as I go, editing brilliantly and turn in final draft copy to my editor--after it's been beta read by a writer friend.

I STRONGLY suggest you hit the 808 section of the library and grab all the books on novel writing you can see how others handle the craft. Use what works for you and write your story.

Also-- PLEASE go to the AW thread Learn Writing with Uncle Jim.

Start with the first posting and read it through. You will learn a LOT!!

If Stephen J. Cannell has anything on his website to help, soak it up! He's successfully segued from screenplays to novels--with dyslexia yet! I met him at a signing, and he gave the most awesome talk on the contrast of novels vs screen plays. I learned a lot from him.

If anyone can help you HE'S the man!

Good luck!

Shweta · Jul 19, 2008

I can't answer to typical processes. But my first draft process so far has been:

1) Play with story in head at all times of day, up to and including answering questions with total nonsense then going "Huh?"
2) Write as much as possible, realize I had it wrong, delete most of what I wrote, rewrite. End up with (if I'm lucky) 500 words in a day.
3) Get to chapter 3, realize my plot is wrong, stop writing, plot the whole thing out, scene by scene, on index cards.
4) Write the new beginning because, goodness, now I'm introducing major characters in the first chapter 1 and I won't know what they're like unless I write the earlier scenes.
5) Realize a couple of major character names are wrong. Scream woe to the heavens, rend clothes, tear hair out, rename characters, think I shall never get used to the new names.
5b) Scream woe to the heavens some more as I realize that the names are now wrong on all my index cards.
6) Realize it's not that bad, get back to writing.
7) Figure out a better end to the novel. Dither about whether to use the old names or new on rewritten index cards.
8) Rewrite early scenes to add Conflict because, silly, everyone getting along splendidly is boooring.

But when I've gone through the whole novel this way, I shall call it a first draft.

Similarly, I'll do a mixture of rethinking structure, redoing things at a sentence level, and tightening dialogue for a next draft. Unless I have to toss the whole thing out and start over.

I'm guessing I'll need three or four of these to make my novel a novel and not a shambling monster; that comes from two things. 1) I have a plot that makes sense and doesn't sag, so I don't think I'll be tossing the whole thing out, and 2) 3-4 drafts is what my short stories take. But if, after 4 drafts, the story ain't something I can be proud of, I'll do more drafts. No biggie.

Wolvel · Jul 19, 2008

I just wing it until it feels right to me. whether it takes two to two hundred edits to get it right.

Kalyke · Jul 19, 2008

I never got the memo for how many drafts it takes till done. It takes no more and no less than what makes it "perfect." in a way. Most published novels are well below par and not nearly "done." That is a publishing industry problem. There are no set amounts of iterations till done. I think the only true difference is that there is "no one" down the line to save your ass if you do a poor job. No director or actor can save your stuff, it is all you. With this in mind, you don't let it go to press if it has any problems.

blacbird · Jul 19, 2008

Writing a novel is the easiest process imaginable: You just do it.

Getting it published, however, is another animal altogether. You think getting a screenplay bought is difficult? Try getting a novel accepted for publication.

caw

WordlyVision · Jul 19, 2008

To echo what others have said, the "process" of writing a novel is unique to every single individual; "One size doesn't fit all". There may be certain aspects of the process that two ore more people execute the same way, but nonetheless, there are many many aspects in the whole of the individual process, which in the end makes it completely unique to you and how you write.

The whole calculation of completing x number of words in y number of days or weeks -- if you can call it calculating -- is just a goal that we novelists set as a milestone, or personal deadline.

For me, I write as many drafts as it takes to make my novel a diamond in its fully cut and polished beauty so to speak; I don't limit myself to 2, 3, or 4 drafts because there's almost always something that you catch in the next pass around that you didn't before.

As for where I start -- and every single other writer out there -- I start with an idea... an idea for a character, conflict, plot, or theme. From there, the idea as the foundation gets its skeletal structure built with basic barebone facts, and then comes the actual placement of the bricks -- each tiny piece of the story fitted in one at a time. In the case of having an idea for a plot and/or theme, I will shape the ending of the story first, because without the ending, the story runs a risk of becoming a never-ending tale and a plot and character with no final resolve.

Welcome to the world of novelists my friend!

simplyaven · Jul 19, 2008

Similar to Mumut, I write when the feeling is here. I don't have drafts. From the very beginning I started seeing the main scenes in my head and I keep seeing them. I wrote everything I saw then. Later I started watching the movie about my characters' everyday life and I'm currently trying to describe what I see. If I revise, I do it as i go, on the computer. The whole story happens daily in my head, I try to find time to write it down. A few minutes ago I finished another chapter which I watched yesterday and today. Whatever works best for you is your process.

P.S. I envy you for your job

JasonChirevas · Jul 20, 2008

Write a sequence of about 100,000 words in which each propels the reader to the next.

What? You thought it was going to be hard?

-Jason

Jill · Jul 20, 2008

Wolvel said:
I just wing it until it feels right to me. whether it takes two to two hundred edits to get it right.

I agree in principle though I don't think we are ever completely satisfied with what we write. When I read my book in print for the first time, I kept thinking that I could have done it better.

I try not to edit as I go along because for me it spoils the flow. That doesn't mean that I don't go back and read over what I've written to make sure I'm getting context right.

I start off with a basic plan and most importantly a character map - not just where they all fit into the big picture but what makes them tick. I also find it helps to stick pictures cut from magazines onto a board near my computer. That way not only do I not make mistakes about eye and hair colour etc., I also feel that I know them.

timewaster · Jul 20, 2008

robotdg said:
So I am a professional screenwriter -- mildly successful -- I am full-time and make my living doing it.

What does a typical draft process look like? Does a novelist typically write a draft at X words per day. Then rewrite it once and declare it done?

There is no one process. It varies enormously from wirter to writer and book to book.

Typically, I set myself a daily word target and write in order ie from chapter one to chapter forty. I aim for a book of 80k and anything between 1500 and 3500 words a day, but I always have a break when either RL intervenes or I need more thinking time so I don't usually write a book in six weeks (though I have.)

Sometimes I do rolling revision other times I don't do any editing until I have that first draft done. At the end of the first draft I print it out read it through, make notes as I go then tidy it up, fix everything I think isn't working and send it off to my agent. This cleaning up usually takes a week. If my agent makes any suggestions I'll follow them, but usually the submission draft gets sent in and I then do a post submission draft when the editor has had a look at it.

By this time several months will have passed I then do what my editor suggests plus everything else I now see I don't like about the book. I do more major changes between submission and publication than at any other time (when I have a contract.) I ought to say that when I have a contract I sell the novel off synopisis and first chapters which rather changes the nature of the game. I make changes in line with my editor's views and don't waste time 'perfecting' it until I know what those are.

This has worked well for eight books. I am out of contract now and trying to write a whole novel on spec. I am finding that more difficult and I will spend longer tidying it up and making it right when I finally manage to get to the end. In that case I do want to get the draft to the state I usually manage post edit. I will have my first draft, a much cleaned up submission draft and then a third draft after my agent has seen it. If it then gets accepted I imagine it will go to another post-edit draft.

Some people anguish over every word. I try to get the story down and then later clean up the sentences that don't work in context.
With novel writing it isn't just about the sentence level stuff it is about how all the sentences work together to impel the reader forward. I'm sure, as a scriptwriter, you know all about that and I think if you get the story telling part right everything else falls into place around it.

I find that sometimes newbies over work each paragraph so that they lose that forward momentum and the story dies on its feet. IMHO

sunandshadow · Jul 20, 2008

The time between drafts can be as important as the number. You may not find anything to edit if you haven't had time to mentally back off and get more objective. And like Gillhoughly I tend to edit continuously because whenever sitting down for a new writing session I always reread the last scene or two to get into the right mental state for writing the next one, and I edit a bit while I reread. If I were to describe the stereotypical novel drafting process I would say:
- Rough draft of one or more chapters (only the author sees the draft, although others may be asked for ideas)
- Clean draft of first chapter (author only, removal of all typos, making sentences less awkward.
- Clean draft of first chapter is given to writing circle/beta readers. While waiting, write second chapter, or keep writing if you are already past that.
- On receiving beta readers' feedback, decide whether anything major needs rewritten and you know enough to do it yet. If yes and yes, do it and resend to beta readers. If no, give them clean draft of chapter 2 and keep their comments on chapter one for later. Keep writing.

- Repeat until all chapters have been written and critiqued at least once. Outline. Rework the whole thing as necessary, then give to fresh beta readers and/or a consultant editor.

- Using feedback, make changes and/or set the manuscript aside for a few weeks and make changes later. Prepare query/synopsis.

- Make a final excruciatingly clean copy of the query, synopsis, and sample chapters and send off to publishers.

earlyAMwriter · Jul 20, 2008

I write fast, because when the story's there it has to come out now. So it seems I'm either writing at a much faster clip than 1,000 words per day or I'm cruising AW, cooking my next idea, and polishing a query. There is no in between: write or die, or wait for the next time I feel like write or die.

When I'm in a novel I go through the previous day's work and edit/reconstruct before continuing. So, I suppose by the time I get through a first draft, it's been second-drafted. Also, my betas look it over as I go. When done, I print to hard copy and read from that. For my last novel I printed twice. On the third pass I read the entire novel out loud.

I didn't make major changes. I have a feeling this is either good or very, very bad. Probably the latter. **sigh**

Raphee · Jul 21, 2008

For my first write I do set word counts as a target to get the story out quick.
For rewrites, there is no bar. Just goes on till I know I have the finished product.

Phaeal · Jul 21, 2008

Do: Switch to novels if you're truly intrigued by the form. Dissect your favorite novels (if you don't have at least a dozen you can name off the top of your head, could be you're not really intrigued by the form but by the thought of a new market.) Read books on novel writing. Draft an outline and try a first draft.

Don't: Worry about any other writer's process. You will have to discover your own. The only unbreakable rule: Stopping too soon and submitting a raw MS to agents and editors. They have delicate tummies.

Oh, and don't: Switch to novels expecting instant wealth. Since you already have a foot in the screenplay door, you're probably a lot more likely to make decent money there.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 21, 2008

robotdg said:
The number of words in a screenplay means that often we do countless drafts of it. We work and rework it like a piece of poetry. And in doing so it is VERY difficult to predict when we are done.

Not sure where you got your info, but this paragraph describes the writing process. Period. Regardless of genre, media, length, or category.

explain the process of writing a novel to me!

Mostly purring. Mostly.

:)

The Scavengers

Fixed on the future...

Fear the Death Ray

Well begun is half done...

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

What a desolation.

Grumpy writer and editor

gone

Write the Damn Book!

The Ideas keep coming...

present

Impractical Fantasy Animal

In debt to AW

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Court Jester