Singular 'their'

Billingsgate · Jul 17, 2008

I saw an interesting discussion on LinkedIn about the singular, gender-neutral use of the word 'their' (as in "Every person has their own opinion"), which we all know is excruciatingly incorrect grammar (should be "Every person has his own opinion" in most cases).

Well, someone posted this interesting link showing examples from Jane Austen, Shakespeare and Lewis Carroll, among others, using the singular 'their'. I thought people here would find this enlightening:

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html

From now on I might not be so pedantic about this rule.

alleycat · Jul 17, 2008

The thing is . . . it's not excruciatingly incorrect grammar.

Reilly616 · Jul 17, 2008

Yeah, it isn't incorrect...

Billingsgate · Jul 17, 2008

Er, I was being ironic. In grade school, the last place I studied English grammar, I was always told it is incorrect. My children are also marked down in school for use of singular 'their'. And let's face it, many of us with strict grammatical upbringings feel slightly uncomfortable every time we use such a structure. And try writing a business document with singular 'their'. It's often re-edited into the awkward "he or she" or "his or her".

Reilly616 · Jul 17, 2008

I never have. And that wasn't really ironic.

Danger Jane · Jul 17, 2008

I try not to sweat "singular their". It's awkward both to say "he or she" and to pick a singular gender-specific pronoun in many cases, so when "their" is the best choice and I'm not writing a formal paper, I use it.

Shenlon · Jul 17, 2008

Until you give me a better gender neutral pronoun, I'll continue to use "their." That is all.

dpaterso · Jul 17, 2008

I got the same crap at school, and every time I type that damn word in a singular context I pause and ponder whether it's correct for at least 3 minutes. Kills my train of thought dead.

I was kinda hoping that "ghis" or "gher" (generic his/her) might catch on, but they never did.

-Derek

ejket · Jul 18, 2008

Then there's the neutral usage of "zie" and "zir" which I don't think spread any further than Usenet, and even there has died out in past years.

maestrowork · Jul 18, 2008

One way to avert that is by writing: "We all have our own opinions."

Otherwise, don't sweat it. I use "their." "He" or "she" is just awkward.

James81 · Jul 18, 2008

I'm not sure people reading it would pick up on it anyway. Only someone who is into grammar hardcore would notice, and even they would understand how awkward it is to try to write that correctly.

Mr Flibble · Jul 18, 2008

"Every person has their own opinion"), which we all know is excruciatingly incorrect grammar

So the people who compiled my dictionary must be excruciatingly bad at grammar, beacuse the example they give in the definition is: Everyone must make up their own mind.

It's a possessive of they, that's what it's for.

hammerklavier · Jul 18, 2008

Every person has their own opinion; and they should keep it to theirself.

pconsidine · Jul 18, 2008

IdiotsRUs said:
It's a possessive of they, that's what it's for.

Except that "everyone" isn't a plural and so shouldn't take the plural possessive. Otherwise it would be "Everyone have their own opinion."

But yes, by now this issue has pretty much been relegated to the land of the Grammar Nazi.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 18, 2008

Kids get taught all kinds of incorrect grammar in school by people who think they are being hyper-correct.

If I had a dollar for everyone who said or wrote "Just between you and I."

Yes, the "Just between you and I" people think that the singular "they" is wrong. Well, just between you and I, they is wrong.

MelodyO · Jul 18, 2008

It annoys the living daylights out of me when an author goes to all the trouble at the beginning of a book to point out that he sure as hell isn't going to use "their" like that, and will just be using "he" throughout for simplicity's sake. Whatever, dude who's dismissing half the population for no good reason. If a writer hates "their", why don't they just use "his" sometimes and "her" sometimes? Or at least do whatever they want without drawing attention to it? Mutter mutter.

ejket · Jul 18, 2008

pconsidine said:
[...] "everyone" isn't a plural and so shouldn't take the plural possessive. Otherwise it would be "Everyone have their own opinion."

I guess "Everyone has one's own opinion" is possible, though a bit schoolmarmish.

Mr Flibble · Jul 18, 2008

Except that "everyone" isn't a plural and so shouldn't take the plural possessive.

Everyone would mean more than one person though, yes? Meaning that it is refering to more than one person? Or you wouldn't have the 'every' bit. Which would ( ??) make it a plural pronoun in many cases.

Besides 'Everyone should make up his mind' is a no go -- unless the everyone you refer to are in fact male. Or maybe his name is Everyone? 'his and her' is just silly.

Tbh, I'm with Churchill on this sort of debate: This is the sort of errant pedantry up with which I shall not put.

pconsidine · Jul 18, 2008

IdiotsRUs said:
Everyone would mean more than one person though, yes? Meaning that it is refering to more than one person? Or you wouldn't have the 'every' bit. Which would ( ??) make it a plural pronoun in many cases.

I think that's where the whole problem comes up in the first place. People mean a plural when they use it, but the word itself is a kind of contraction for "every individual" ("everyone"). Try replacing the "every" with "each" and you'll see what I mean.

"Everyone has their own opinion."

vs.

"Each one has their own opinion."

There's really no reason not to write around it, as was suggested above. For what it's worth, if I come across a situation like that, I usually default to the feminine pronouns (e.g., "everyone has her own opinion"). Seems the safest way to satisfy the grammar nazi in me without offending the sexism nazi in someone else.

Mr. Fix · Jul 18, 2008

Eh, If I may...

hammerklavier said:
Every person has their own opinion; and they should keep it to theirself.

Shouldn't this be "themselves?" Just my opinion...

Also, I have my MS Word (I said Vista somewhere else - that was wrong - sorry) set for "gender neutral" and this helps me greatly. Where I need the gender I just work around it and ignore the MS Words grammer warning. (Green sgwiggley lines under the word.)

melaniehoo · Jul 18, 2008

The singular use of their has has always made me pause, too, as dpaterso said. It's a relief to hear I can stop pausing.

Mr Flibble · Jul 18, 2008

I think that's where the whole problem comes up in the first place. People mean a plural when they use it, but the word itself is a kind of contraction for "every individual" ("everyone"). Try replacing the "every" with "each" and you'll see what I mean.

I see what you mean, but of course words and their usage evolve over time, making some grammar rules a tad silly when applied to the way people actually use the language.

My rule of thumb: If using a grammatical rule will result in awkwardness, wordiness or the sentence becoming nonsensical, and rewriting it will lose the 'flavour' of what you are trying to say, then it's time to Cry havoc!, lob the grammar book across the room and write the damn sentence the way nature intended.

Legal documents excepted of course - awkwardness, wordiness and incomprehensibilty are requirements there anyway.

pconsidine · Jul 18, 2008

It's interesting that, while it does make me a little crazy on a personal level, I'm still not likely to mark it as wrong in a manuscript I'm reading. Unless, of course, the author does it many times in a short space, in which case I will mark the hell out of it just from irritation.

Although now I'm wondering – are there any other instances of the same thing in English? I thought about it for a while and couldn't come up with anything.

AncientEagle · Jul 18, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Kids get taught all kinds of incorrect grammar in school by people who think they are being hyper-correct.

If I had a dollar for everyone who said or wrote "Just between you and I."

Yes, the "Just between you and I" people think that the singular "they" is wrong. Well, just between you and I, they is wrong.

Empress, I always tend to accept your opinions without question, as it's clear that you have exceptional knowledge of English grammar. However, I have to tell you that, in this case, my ear is equally offended by "Just between you and I," and "Everyone...their." I realize the language doesn't offer a simpler replacement for the long accepted, clearly unreasonable, and now obsolete "he" and "his" to represent either gender. So I'll go to a little extra effort to arrange my sentences so they don't make me grind my aging teeth to the gums. But I won't use the singular "they" and "their." So there!

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 18, 2008

AncientEagle said:
But I won't use the singular "they" and "their." So there!

Your choice, but if it's good enough for Samuel Johnson, it's good enough for me.

I'm not a revolutionary on this one--I'm a traditionalist.

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