Underlining vs. Italics

Blondchen · Jul 15, 2008

Forgive me, Mods, if there is a better forum for this. I'm really bad at that.

When I started this whole adventure into writing, I read a few books/did online research in regards to format. General consensus seemed to be:

1 inch margins
Courier or TNR font
Start new chapters part way down the page (anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2)
and use Underline instead of Italics for things that need to be ltalicized

Problem is, I've gotten some feedback on AW saying certain things (like book and film titles) should be italicized, not underlined. And now I'm all confused. Help?

James D. Macdonald · Jul 15, 2008

Book and film titles are supposed to be italicized.

You indicate that by underlining them.

(In manuscripts you show italics by underlining unless the publisher's guidelines say otherwise.)

maestrowork · Jul 15, 2008

Italics are indicated with underline in manuscript format.

Blondchen · Jul 15, 2008

Alright. That's what I thought. Phew!

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

But published books use italics, right?

Alpha Echo · Jul 15, 2008

That's what I was always told! I used to type my MSs in TNR because I was so used to it...but now I just start from the beginning with Courier and underlines.

James D. Macdonald · Jul 15, 2008

Yes. The typesetter takes the words that are underlined in manuscript and sets them in italic.

Alpha Echo · Jul 15, 2008

jennifer75 said:
But published books use italics, right?

Yup!

Quossum · Jul 15, 2008

Okay, so...how is underlining indicated in a MS?

In my story, the MC writes a post to a message board and includes a link. On a real message board, we'd see a different color and underlined words to indicate the link, like so. In my MS, I intended to indicate it with underlining only, of course...but how do you show that, if underlining already indicates italics?

--Q

Deleted member 42 · Jul 15, 2008

You use underlines in mss. instead of italics for two reasons:

1. It gives editors/copyeditors/typesetters room for notes.

2. The italics that most people use aren't "real" italics, to a typesetter, and they're just going to have to do it right, anyway, and it's much easier to spot the underlines in hard copy.

maestrowork · Jul 16, 2008

Quossum said:
Okay, so...how is underlining indicated in a MS?

In my story, the MC writes a post to a message board and includes a link. On a real message board, we'd see a different color and underlined words to indicate the link, like so. In my MS, I intended to indicate it with underlining only, of course...but how do you show that, if underlining already indicates italics?

--Q

I think you indicate an underline with double lines in ms. format. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

dpaterso · Jul 16, 2008

Quossum said:
Okay, so...how is underlining indicated in a MS?

In my story, the MC writes a post to a message board and includes a link. On a real message board, we'd see a different color and underlined words to indicate the link, like so. In my MS, I intended to indicate it with underlining only, of course...but how do you show that, if underlining already indicates italics?

So you're duplicating this in your manuscript, exactly as it appears on the message board? Wouldn't that be presented as an indented illustration? e.g. and just for fun's sake,

Derek hit the send key. The screen refreshed, showing him the new message:

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Check it out!

He'd check back in an hour to see if anyone replied. Right now, a nice cup of tea and grilled cheese on toast was his first priority.

...But how can you change the text color? This is straying away from standard mss. guidelines.

-Derek

maestrowork · Jul 16, 2008

No, Derek. If you just underline it, the typesetter would set it to italics, not underline. "Colored texts" don't exist in ms.

Hmm... I see that "wavy" underline is for BOLD, but I can't find the instructions on how to indicate underline in ms.

Feathers · Jul 16, 2008

Sounds like I'm the clueless one here, but I thought in a mss, the practice of using underline in place of italics is not effective anymore - unless otherwise stated in publishers guidelines. So what up ???

-Feathers

arkady · Jul 16, 2008

I think this discussion is presuming that the submitted material has been bought by a publisher, and its next stop is the typesetter. In which case, yes, I understand that underlines are the way to go.

But what about material being submitted to an agent, specifically partials and fulls? Some people say to use real italics, others say use underlining. And very few (if any) agencies actually specify which they prefer. There seems to be a wide variety of opinion on this.

Bufty · Jul 16, 2008

I don't think the Agent would care a hoot which was used - underlining or real italics so long as one was consistent throughout the manuscript. Any Agent would understand both. And when things get to the publishing /printing stage it's easy enough to reverse as necessary via Find and Replace, but that ain't your worry.

Indeed I doubt it's worth worrying about at all.

Do you honestly think any Agent worth his salt is going to reject a partial or full submission solely because any italics therein are not indicated in the manner he would wish them to be - be it underlined or in real italics?

Most novels use italics sparingly anyway.

arkady said:
I think this discussion is presuming that the submitted material has been bought by a publisher, and its next stop is the typesetter. In which case, yes, I understand that underlines are the way to go.

But what about material being submitted to an agent, specifically partials and fulls? Some people say to use real italics, others say use underlining. And very few (if any) agencies actually specify which they prefer. There seems to be a wide variety of opinion on this.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 16, 2008

Blondchen said:
Start new chapters part way down the page (anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2)

Wait. What? Is this true? My chapters just start at the top of a new page. Do I need to make them start halfway down?

Feathers said:
Sounds like I'm the clueless one here, but I thought in a mss, the practice of using underline in place of italics is not effective anymore - unless otherwise stated in publishers guidelines. So what up ???

-Feathers

Underline for italics unless otherwise stated in publishers guidelines.

Have you ever deliberately tried to find italics in your manuscript? It's nigh on impossible. Do the typesetter a favor and underline so his eyesight doesn't get all wonky.

arkady · Jul 16, 2008

Bufty said:
Do you honestly think any Agent worth his salt is going to reject a partial or full submission solely because any italics therein are not indicated in the manner he would wish them to be - be it underlined or in real italics?

I have no idea. That's why I asked. Agents can be extremely picky creatures, over details that I personally consider rather trivial. I don't "honestly" think it's a dumb question at all.

Bufty · Jul 16, 2008

It's not a dumb question and I didn't mean to imply it was. I'm simply answering it by saying it's not really worth worrying about.

arkady said:
I have no idea. That's why I asked. Agents can be extremely picky creatures, over details that I personally consider rather trivial. I don't "honestly" think it's a dumb question at all.

maestrowork · Jul 16, 2008

arkady said:
I have no idea. That's why I asked. Agents can be extremely picky creatures, over details that I personally consider rather trivial. I don't "honestly" think it's a dumb question at all.

That's not really true -- that agents are extremely picky -- unless you're talking about deliberately not following submission guidelines. Most agents would accept mss. in TNR or courier, unless specifically noted in their guidelines. And if you submit it in TNR or electronically, it's okay to use italics. The problem with italics is that they don't show well with courier font.

General formatting standards should be followed: margins, double-spaced, headers, etc. But as far as italics are concerned, I think it's not that important -- just be consistent and clear (again, with courier font, italics just don't show well).

dpaterso · Jul 16, 2008

maestrowork said:
No, Derek. If you just underline it, the typesetter would set it to italics, not underline. "Colored texts" don't exist in ms.

Well sure, I'm just lookin' for some way to suggest to whoever reads the mss. that special circumstances may apply -- preferably a method that doesn't involve inserting arcane copyeditor marks, which are none of the writer's business.

-Derek

kuwisdelu · Jul 16, 2008

maestrowork said:
That's not really true -- that agents are extremely picky -- unless you're talking about deliberately not following submission guidelines. Most agents would accept mss. in TNR or courier, unless specifically noted in their guidelines. And if you submit it in TNR or electronically, it's okay to use italics. The problem with italics is that they don't show well with courier font.

General formatting standards should be followed: margins, double-spaced, headers, etc. But as far as italics are concerned, I think it's not that important -- just be consistent and clear (again, with courier font, italics just don't show well).

Exactly. Standard format is Courier with underline for italics. But lots of agents today will accept anything that's readable and easy on the eyes. I used to read a lot of agent blogs, and most of them agreed Times New Roman with regular italics is fine, too. Don't go Wingdings on bright purple paper. But above all, follow the guidelines, if there are any. An agent who doesn't mention anything on his website or listings may be fine with both, but if an agent asks for it in Courier with underlines, you better send it Courier with underlines.

Toothpaste · Jul 16, 2008

I'd also like to throw a spanner in the works and say that I have never underlined anything, for either agent or editor, when submitting my work. I have always used italics. I think ever since computers made it really easy to create italics, agents/editors don't care about those kinds of things. I guess if you want to be on the safe side, underline, but it has never mattered in my case.

Like what Maestro and Kuwisdelu are saying, what matters is professionalism and clarity on the page. Don't get your knickers in a twist about the details.

Deleted member 42 · Jul 16, 2008

dpaterso said:
Well sure, I'm just lookin' for some way to suggest to whoever reads the mss. that special circumstances may apply -- preferably a method that doesn't involve inserting arcane copyeditor marks, which are none of the writer's business.

-Derek

When said writer has a contract, said writer in a cover letter with the final mss. indicates what special issues said ms. might have--including rights issues, a list of odd names, or foreign words, and any special typesetting issues, including exotic glyphs or text styles.

Mr Flibble · Jul 16, 2008

I asked a UK agent about something similar, and his answer was : I don't care, provided the MS is easily readable ( TNR or courier font, double spaced, good margins for notes) Other than that I doubt I'd notice. It's the writing I'm looking at.

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