Soooo many POV's out there.....help!

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

Is there a place - or can you show an example - where I can see the same excerpt written in different POV's? I'd like to see the same text written in first person and then in narrative writing. I'm still very new at this game, and some POV's just make no sense to me what so ever.

geardrops · Jul 15, 2008

Yep.

ETA

To be a little less flippant...

What about the POVs confuse you?

First person is written in... first person. "I". Third person is written in third person. "He"/"She". Second person is written in the second person. "You".

Limited is limited to one character. Omniscient is... omniscient.

Also: This should probably be in Basic Writing Questions, where there are already many threads on this exact topic. I myself have one.

JamieFord · Jul 15, 2008

I should get a commission for every time I recommend this book.

Characters and Viewpoint does exactly this.

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

dempsey said:
Yep.

ETA

To be a little less flippant...

What about the POVs confuse you?

First person is written in... first person. "I". Third person is written in third person. "He"/"She". Second person is written in the second person. "You".

Limited is limited to one character. Omniscient is... omniscient.

So that's what 'google' is for.

I get real lazy - actually I just forget that the internet is an information super highway and am quick to ask people instead of researching it myself. Thanks guys and gals. Which ever applies.

shelboselby · Jul 15, 2008

Also, just as a side note...don't worry about POV too much. It's one of the easiest things to fix later on. Just write in whatever one you know best and if another fits better you can change it later.

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

dempsey said:
What about the POVs confuse you?

Second person is written in the second person. "You".

Limited is limited to one character. Omniscient is... omniscient.

geardrops · Jul 15, 2008

Limited is just that. Limited.

Heterosexual and perpetually horny guy walks up to a girl. What does he notice? Perhaps the author wants him to notice a glow about her, or that she has a new pair of earrings. But is it in the guy's character to notice it? No. Guy like that couldn't even tell you what color the girl's eyes were.

That's limited.

Omniscient sort of has a birds-eye-view of the whole thing, telling it in the way that a storyteller would. The narrator's perspective.

As for "you" it's... it's you. You are running down a long, dim hall. Cobwebs brush past your face. You wipe them off furiously, but nothing is there. Crap writing aside, that's how second person works (and that is present-tense).

maestrowork · Jul 15, 2008

I'll try.

Here's an excerpt from one of my short stories. It's written in 1st person:

From the window I watched Cecilia pull away in her Lexus. I made Joshua a PB&J, crust off and lots of peanut butter, and put on his sheets while he was watching TV. Sure, the apartment was unkempt and could use a new coat of paint. The dishes needed to be washed. But I wasn’t a bad father. I was a busy man; I often worked double shifts at the dock and the odd hours tired me. But Joshua loved it here. We played video games, and watched TV. He helped me put the laundry away and we couldn’t wait to spend some time at the beach while the sun was out.

I asked him if he wanted some milk, even though I knew I’d run out. He shook his head, no. We were watching Monster Trucks when I casually asked him about Seattle. He shrugged. Didn’t think much of it. Then he finished his sandwich and told me he was ready for the beach.

The beach was always our sanctuary. I’d taught Joshua how to swim at this very beach. The warm water went through our blood and the hot sand was an extension of our bodies. We were happy.

Here's what it may look like in 3rd limited:

From the window Mark watched Cecilia pull away in her Lexus. He then made Joshua a PB&J, crust off and lots of peanut butter, and put on his sheets while he was watching TV. Sure, the apartment was unkempt and could use a new coat of paint. The dishes needed to be washed. But Mark wasn’t a bad father. He was a busy man; he often worked double shifts at the dock and the odd hours tired him. But he knew Joshua loved it there. They played video games, and watched TV. Joshua helped him put the laundry away and he couldn’t wait to spend some time with his son at the beach while the sun was out.

Mark asked Joshua if he wanted some milk, even though he knew he’d run out. The kid shook his head, no. They were watching Monster Trucks when Mark casually asked him about Seattle. The boy shrugged. He said he didn’t think much of it. Then he finished his sandwich and told Mark he was ready for the beach.

The beach was always their sanctuary. Mark had taught Joshua how to swim at this very beach. The warm water went through his blood and the hot sand was an extension of his body. He was happy.

Here's it in 3rd omniscient:

Cecilia pulled away in her Lexus as Mark watched her from his window. He then made Joshua a PB&J, crust off and lots of peanut butter, and put on his sheets while he was watching TV. The apartment was unkempt and could use a new coat of paint. The dishes needed to be washed. But Mark didn't think he was a bad father. His excuse was he was a busy man; He often worked double shifts at the dock and the odd hours tired him. But Joshua loved it here. They played video games, and watched TV. He helped his father put the laundry away and he couldn’t wait to spend some time at the beach while the sun was out.

Mark asked him if he wanted some milk, even though he knew he had run out. Joshua thought for a second, then shook his head. They were watching Monster Trucks when Mark casually asked his son about Seattle. Joshua shrugged. He didn’t think much of it. Then he finished his sandwich and told his father he was ready for the beach.

The beach was always their sanctuary. Mark had taught Joshua how to swim at this very beach. The warm water went through their blood and the hot sand was an extension of our bodies. They were happy.

Here's it in 2nd person:

From the window you watched Cecilia pull away in her Lexus. Then you made your son a PB&J, crust off and lots of peanut butter, and put on his sheets while he was watching TV. Sure, the apartment was unkempt and could use a new coat of paint. The dishes needed to be washed. But you weren’t a bad father. You were a busy man; you often worked double shifts at the dock and the odd hours tired you. But you knew Joshua loved it here. You played video games, and watched TV. He helped you put the laundry away and you couldn’t wait to spend some time at the beach while the sun was out.

You asked him if he wanted some milk, even though you knew you’d run out. He shook his head, no. You were watching Monster Trucks when you casually asked him about Seattle. He shrugged. He said he didn’t think much of it. Then he finished his sandwich and told you he was ready for the beach.

The beach was always your sanctuary. You’d taught Joshua how to swim at this very beach. The warm water went through your blood and the hot sand was an extension of your body. You were happy.

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

dempsey said:
Limited is just that. Limited.

Heterosexual and perpetually horny guy walks up to a girl. What does he notice? Perhaps the author wants him to notice a glow about her, or that she has a new pair of earrings. But is it in the guy's character to notice it? No. Guy like that couldn't even tell you what color the girl's eyes were.

That's limited.

so the author writes nothing of him noticing? Sorry if I come off as a Kindergartener.

Omniscient sort of has a birds-eye-view of the whole thing, telling it in the way that a storyteller would. The narrator's perspective.

Is it possible to be omniscient without narrating?

As for "you" it's... it's you. You are running down a long, dim hall. Cobwebs brush past your face. You wipe them off furiously, but nothing is there. Crap writing aside, that's how second person works (and that is present-tense).

I'm still confused with 2nd person - what makes it different from 1st? Am I actually using the word "you"? So the one reading is almost being told what they are doing??? That just sounds bizarre.

ideagirl · Jul 15, 2008

jennifer75 said:
Second person is written in the second person. "You".

Limited is limited to one character. Omniscient is... omniscient.

Second person is almost never used, for the sensible reason that it tends to annoy the reader--it prevents the reader from getting immersed in the story.

Limited is short for "third-person limited," as opposed to "third-person omniscient." They both use "he/she" (i.e. they describe all characters as he/she, rather than using "I" and letting one character speak in the first person), but in omniscient, the narrator knows everything about everyone, including their thoughts; in third-person limited, the narrator knows everything about one character, but only sees the other characters from the outside.

blacbird · Jul 15, 2008

jennifer75 said:
Second person is written in the second person. "You".

Limited is limited to one character. Omniscient is... omniscient.

Not much fiction is written in second person POV, but an example would be Jay McInerney's Bright Lights, Big City. Most people, me included, find that kind of narration precious and gimmicky and, well, just plain unreadable after about five pages:

"You wake up and take a shower. Your eyes are red and puffy, and your head feels like it's about to explode. You never should have mixed that good Talisker with Red Bull last night."

etc.

Third person limited POV is told through the camera lens of a single character (or only one character at a time, shifting to other characters perhaps, in separate scenes or chapters). But it is told using "he did X" rather than the first person "I did X". It is a very common narrative technique in modern writing. The key thing to remember is that, in using third-person limited, you can't present anything the narrative character doesn't or can't experience. You can't present other people's thoughts, or describe some happening outside the narrative character's sphere of observation.

Third person omniscient POV is likewise a "he did X" form, but narrated as though the author is a God-like observer, and pretty much anything can be included in the narrative, thoughts of many characters, descriptions of almost anything, etc. It was the standard fictional narrative technique of the 19th Century, and is still being used pretty widely today. It has a lot of tempting pitfalls for the inexperienced writer, however.

That help any?

caw

Mr Flibble · Jul 15, 2008

First person -- as if the guy it happened to is telling it to you. I went to X, I did Y: Often has more 'voice' There was a bloody great dragon in front of me!

Third limited. He or she does things rather than I but it is similar to the friend telling a stroy of a friend, . But if it's limited the POV only knows what the POV character does, although you still have their thoughts without the filter of 'she thought'. 'A dragon reared its head in front of her and primed its flame. Oh crap.

Third Omni: The narrator knows things the character doesn't, and may well have a personality of its own. A dragon advanced on her, stealthily keeping to the rocks. Of course she deserved getting a fried arse for being a git, but....

Linda Adams · Jul 15, 2008

Try FM Writers, though you'll need to register to view it. There was a workshop called Your Many Voices held back in January where we all wrote the same piece over and over again in the different viewpoints.

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

maestrowork said:
Here's it in 2nd person:

Quote:
From the window you watched Cecilia pull away in her Lexus. Then you made your son a PB&J, crust off and lots of peanut butter, and put on his sheets while he was watching TV. Sure, the apartment was unkempt and could use a new coat of paint. The dishes needed to be washed. But you weren’t a bad father. You were a busy man; you often worked double shifts at the dock and the odd hours tired you. But you knew Joshua loved it here. You played video games, and watched TV. He helped you put the laundry away and you couldn’t wait to spend some time at the beach while the sun was out.

You asked him if he wanted some milk, even though you knew you’d run out. He shook his head, no. You were watching Monster Trucks when you casually asked him about Seattle. He shrugged. He said he didn’t think much of it. Then he finished his sandwich and told you he was ready for the beach.

The beach was always your sanctuary. You’d taught Joshua how to swim at this very beach. The warm water went through your blood and the hot sand was an extension of your body. You were happy.

Click to expand...

How bizarre!!! Is this a common POV?

geardrops · Jul 15, 2008

I apologize in advance for how bad my examples will be.

jennifer75 said:
so the author writes nothing of him noticing? Sorry if I come off as a Kindergartener.

Heterosexual horny guy from first person:

I knew she was talking. I swear, I heard her voice. I heard something, at least. But there was no way anyone could talk over the way that shirt clung to her her tits. A small drop of sweat ran down her neck, trailing a path between those perfect breasts. God bless the broken A/C.

From third person limited:

He knew she was talking. He heard her voice, at least. Something. But he never once looked at her face. Her shirt shifted a little as she took a sip from her drink, and he swallowed thickly.

Yeah, I changed it a little. I'm allowed

jennifer75 said:
Is it possible to be omniscient without narrating?

That depends on what you mean by narrating. If you mean avoiding things like "Wizard people, dear reader, are a capricious bunch" then yes, easily, and it's highly recommended.

jennifer75 said:
I'm still confused with 2nd person - what makes it different from 1st? Am I actually using the word "you"? So the one reading is almost being told what they are doing??? That just sounds bizarre.

Yes it is. Hence, it's rarely used. I hate second person.

blacbird · Jul 15, 2008

Addendum to what's been said in the last three or so posts:

Alternative POV's aren't simply a matter of substituting "I" for "she", etc. The narrative POV has a profound influence on the development of any story, and should be regarded as organic to the given story, not just arbitrarily chosen. Some stories really demand a first-person technique, some are much better suited to third, and the issue of limited vs. omniscient in third-person makes for a very influential choice in what kind of story it turns out to be. Do you want your reader to be surprised just like your narrative character is when the murderer leaps from the shadows with the knife (limited 3rd)? Or do you want your reader to know the murderer is waiting in ambush, while your narrative character is oblivious (omniscient third)?

caw

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

ideagirl said:
but in omniscient, the narrator knows everything about everyone, including their thoughts; in third-person limited, the narrator knows everything about one character, but only sees the other characters from the outside.

Wonderful way of putting it, thank you.

I've graduated to first grade now.

blacbird · Jul 15, 2008

jennifer75 said:
How bizarre!!! Is this a common POV?

No, thank God. Your initial reaction is pretty common, however. And justified, IMO.

caw

maestrowork · Jul 15, 2008

There are also variation of 3rd limited and omniscient:

- 3rd limited alternating/rotating: You follow multiple POV characters but you make a clear shift. You only follow one character at a time.

- 3rd objective/camera: It's the same as omniscient except you don't delve into any character's mind at all. You can describe anything you want, but just not how the characters think or feel.

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

dempsey said:
That depends on what you mean by narrating. If you mean avoiding things like "Wizard people, dear reader, are a capricious bunch" then yes, easily, and it's highly recommended.

I guess I've always thought of Narrative as having a story read to me, without the use of "dear reader" etc.

So almost as if the person the story has happened to, is in a chair, telling me their story. Does that make any sense? I swear in my head it does.

I'm amazed at the quickness you all have replied, thank you - I may be slower than you and post questions that you may have answered already, if so sorry.

I'm learning as I go.

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

maestrowork said:
There are also variation of 3rd limited and omniscient:

- 3rd limited alternating/rotating: You follow multiple POV characters but you make a clear shift. You only follow one character at a time.

- 3rd objective/camera: It's the same as omniscient except you don't delve into any character's mind at all. You can describe anything you want, but just not how the characters think or feel.

You just had to, didn't you? I'm curious how 3rd limited alt/rot would read.

geardrops · Jul 15, 2008

jennifer75 said:
I guess I've always thought of Narrative as having a story read to me, without the use of "dear reader" etc.

So almost as if the person the story has happened to, is in a chair, telling me their story. Does that make any sense? I swear in my head it does.

It's more like an independent narrator telling the story. They can tap into character heads if they want to, and they give their own view of the story; for example, a man with a scar on his face can be painted either handsome ("rugged features and a soft, almost silvery scar down his strong jawline") or ugly ("gaunt face, marked by a deep, winding scar") with the simple use of different adjectives.

After all, if someone were retelling a story that happened to them, they'd probably tell it in first-person.

maestrowork · Jul 15, 2008

jennifer75 said:
You just had to, didn't you? I'm curious how 3rd limited alt/rot would read.

Here's the same example with two POVs (first Mark, then Joshua):

From the window Mark watched Cecilia pull away in her Lexus. He then made Joshua a PB&J, crust off and lots of peanut butter, and put on his sheets while he was watching TV. Sure, the apartment was unkempt and could use a new coat of paint. The dishes needed to be washed. But Mark wasn’t a bad father. He was a busy man; he often worked double shifts at the dock and the odd hours tired him. But he knew the boy loved it there. They played video games, and watched TV. Joshua helped him put the laundry away and Mark couldn’t wait to spend some time with his son at the beach while the sun was out.
#
Joshua's father asked him if he wanted some milk. He shook his head. No. They were watching Monster Trucks when his father asked him about Seattle. He shrugged. He hadn't thought much of it. Then he finished his sandwich and told his father he was ready for the beach.

The beach was always his special place. His father had taught him how to swim at this very beach. The warm water went through his blood and the hot sand was an extension of his body. He was happy.

blacbird · Jul 15, 2008

jennifer75 said:
You just had to, didn't you? I'm curious how 3rd limited alt/rot would read.

Tony Hillerman uses this technique in his long series of mysteries set in Navajoland in the Southwest. Generally as having one or more chapters narrated from one character's POV, and switching to a second, sometimes even a third character, for other chapters. But the key point is that, within any given character's set of narration, the POV is limited to that character. And the switches are not too frequent.

That was the first one that came to mind. I'm sure other people here can come up with other examples.

caw

jennifer75 · Jul 15, 2008

Here's the same example with two POVs (first Mark, then Joshua):

From the window Mark watched Cecilia pull away in her Lexus. He then made Joshua a PB&J, crust off and lots of peanut butter, and put on his sheets while he was watching TV. Sure, the apartment was unkempt and could use a new coat of paint. The dishes needed to be washed. But Mark wasn’t a bad father. He was a busy man; he often worked double shifts at the dock and the odd hours tired him. But he knew the boy loved it there. They played video games, and watched TV. Joshua helped him put the laundry away and Mark couldn’t wait to spend some time with his son at the beach while the sun was out.
#
Joshua's father asked him if he wanted some milk. He shook his head. No. They were watching Monster Trucks when his father asked him about Seattle. He shrugged. He hadn't thought much of it. Then he finished his sandwich and told his father he was ready for the beach.

The beach was always his special place. His father had taught him how to swim at this very beach. The warm water went through his blood and the hot sand was an extension of his body. He was happy.

Very smooth, thank you.

Soooo many POV's out there.....help!

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They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

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