Fantasy Writers Who Dislike Magic

SPMiller · Jul 15, 2008

First, one quick order of business. There's a magical system which involves starting with a basic symbol (or set of basic symbols) and adding ornamentation/decoration to specify which effects you want the spell to have. What is this system called?

There. I've swallowed my pride and used AW as an information-seeking resource. Now, to salvage the thread with some actual discussion.

For the same reason that I'm an atheist, I'm also strongly anti-mystical. I have a fundamentally skeptical, scientific worldview. I admit that I perceive anyone with any manner of supernatural belief to be at least mildly crazy. That probably offends most of the folks reading this post. This bias leaks into most of the work I do.

So why the hell do I write about gods and magic all the time? And why, for that matter, do I read so much fantasy fiction?

Well, I'm not sure exactly why, but it's so damned interesting. I know it's fake. I realize it's all fiction. Maybe it's the idea of there being a universe where humans have direct, willful control over the mechanisms governing reality. Perhaps the presence of actual gods in the world satisfies my skeptical demand for observational proof. Could that be it? The concept that in these constructed worlds, humans are themselves the gods? That sure is appealing!

I dunno. Pelt me with your guesses.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 15, 2008

I'm an athiest and skeptic but I love fantasy stories expecially ones that feature magic. It pleases the "what if" in me. What if magic was real and Man could control his environment through those means.

I'm not even sure why your rational self would be interfering with your creative self any way. Don't you lock up the skeptic when you write? I do.

It's fantasy. He has no business sticking his nose into it.

And I don't know what magic system that is.

ChaosTitan · Jul 15, 2008

I'm with Shadow. My rational self has nothing to do with what I write (which is urban fantasy/paranormal).

I was raised Methodist, converted to Pentacostal, and now I'm...um...independantly spiritual. But that side of me has little to do with the way I write about magic, vampires, shapeshifters, goblins, trolls, and (soon) demons. I'm sure my mother would prefer I write happy little homilies filled with people who don't swear or kill or make bad choices, but I do. Those are the stories that interest me, so that's what I write.

SPMiller · Jul 15, 2008

I've probably made it seem my writing is some sort of vehicle for my beliefs. Clearly it isn't, or I wouldn't be writing fantasy. But I can see the influence of my bias in one particular trend that holds true in most of my work: magic is never inherently benevolent and gods are never inherently benevolent. (And, in one work, the God is actually quite cruel.) This contrasts with more modern religious beliefs in which the monotheistic God-being is often unquestionably benevolent.

And that's probably why polytheism and the concept of flawed gods died. People like the idea of a single deity who genuinely loves and cares for them.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 15, 2008

Actually, they didn't die, they went on vacation. At least that's the premise of my urban fantasy.

And the gods in most of my novels are flawed, like people. They have their own agendas and often selfish reasons for doing things. They aren't benevolent or malevolent, but are sometimes one or the other depending on their mood or what they want. Magic works the same way, good magic, bad magic, just depends on what the person's purpose for using it is.

The magic is dependent upon the characters' personalities.

In my case it doesn't come about because of my real life beliefs.

Sarpedon · Jul 15, 2008

I seem to recall that in the Alvin Maker series by Orson Scott Card, he had people making 'hexes' which were in fact hexagons with various extra features that caused the magical effects. That might be what you are looking for.

Also in Margret Weis and Tracy Hickman's 'Death Gate' series they had 'rune magic' which was somewhat similar.

And I'm a fantasy loving atheist too. Magic doesn't bother me. Too much divine intervention bothers me.
I hope that helps.

maxmordon · Jul 15, 2008

Catholic here. There are religions in my story but the fact that there is one, two, many or no god in the world where most stories are set is rather ambiguous. A little bit of "Happy is the one who doesn't insist to be right, since either everyone or nobody is"

Magic bothers me if is done in a bad cheap way in which only works when the plot requires it and can leave some things too easy to the protagonists.

No meant to offense, but I think is rather silly that since you are an atheist you don't like anything involving the supernatural in fiction. I mean, it's like saying since I am Catholic I don't read any other fantasy books than the Chronicles of Narnia since magix iz evil!!!111!... just kidding, I believe in God, but that doesn't make me some dumb fanatist

SPMiller · Jul 15, 2008

No meant to offense, but I think is rather silly that since you are an atheist you don't like anything involving the supernatural in fiction.

I never said that. In fact, I very pointedly said I did.

But I'll forgive you, as English isn't your first language.

maxmordon · Jul 15, 2008

Sorry, I just notice I misread your first post

Mr Flibble · Jul 15, 2008

And that's probably why polytheism and the concept of flawed gods died. People like the idea of a single deity who genuinely loves and cares for them.

See and that's one reason why I love polytheistic gods. Because they are flawed, and the don't expect me to be anything other than flawed / human too ( although they like it if I try and be the best one I can). Perfection is...um, boring? I like my gods to have personality.

[ aside: I always thought the idea of one perfect being looking out for me was inherently egotistical. Hasn't he got something better to do?

]

Anyway, as for liking the mystical when you're athesistic, pfft, if you like it, don't analyse it. Enjoy it! Of course I may be the other way round. I'm religious and my magical system is based on the laws of physics ( well sorta). The different is always fun.

Sarpedon · Jul 15, 2008

From observation, it seems that fantasy is a favorite genre for atheists.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 15, 2008

I struggle with my Atheism; at the moment, I am a non-practicing Wiccan... Goddess forgive me. I would like to believe in something, but I flciker in and out. So for me, fantasy is a very intriguing genre. Exploration of possibilities and all that jazz. Unfortunately, sub-genres of fantasy, like Christian writing, sometimes don't interest me much. I prefer my exploartions divorced from real-world fantasy.

Perhaps some other Atheists have the same issue.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 15, 2008

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Unfortunately, sub-genres of fantasy, like Christian writing, sometimes don't interest me much. I prefer my exploartions divorced from real-world fantasy.

Perhaps some other Atheists have the same issue.

Are you saying that all Christian writing is a sub-genre of fantasy, as in "There is no God, so anything written about Christianity is all fantasy"?

Or are you saying the you don't like the sub-genre of Christian fantasy, which would be like the Chronicles of Narnia?

Because the first statement seems rather insulting to people who actually happen to believe.

As for myself, if I were to read the Chronicles of Narnia, I doubt that I'd notice that it was Christian based since I have no formal Christiant education. Therefore I'd rate it based on how it works as a fantasy, not how it works within the Christian cannon.

FinbarReilly · Jul 15, 2008

mamordon: Chronicles of Narnia is a bad example of non-Christian fantasy (too many biblical themes).

Magic: I prefer one with rules other than "convenient to plot".

The system of Magic: I have no idea, but it is an interesting system (I've seen it before in action).

FR

tehuti88 · Jul 15, 2008

Definitely not an atheist here; in fact, my fantasy writing has strongly influenced what I now believe in. So I'm coming from the opposite viewpoint of yours.

I have noticed, however, that I'm a lot more skeptical than my choice of reading material would lead one to believe. I have TONS of books on UFOs, psychics, ghosts, all sorts of supernatural and paranormal phenomena. And I'm a big believer in all sorts of things. I won't rule out possibilities.

But at the same time, I notice that whenever people bring up this subject or I see something about it on TV, or even often when I read about it, I'll be thinking, "What a nutjob" or "Yeah, whatever" or "I bet it was just such-and-such *insert rational explanation here*." In short, I sound like the world's biggest skeptic, in my own head, on the very subjects that I'm such a "believer" in!

I stopped watching most shows on the paranormal long ago because I just started finding them so ludicrous. The ghost-hunters ones, for example, people walk into a room and get a chill and "OMG!! It's a ghost!" This is what passes as proof?? Bleh.

But I'm sure interested in it all, and I would not call myself a nonbeliever by any means. Just a lot more skeptical than I thought I was.

I have no clue about the name of the magic term you're wondering about, apologies.

creamofmushroom · Jul 15, 2008

Shadow_Ferret, in reference to your first post, reading a fantasy story doesnt just involve the thrill of humans being able to control their environment - what makes it really thrilling is what if it this happens to you too and what if you get a happy ending too.
^_^ my thoughts
personally i like a fantasy book with a little bit of magic and science fiction combined.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 15, 2008

I know. I was just giving one example. I certainly don't limit myself to just one type of fantasy.

FinbarReilly · Jul 15, 2008

Er....oops. Sorry, maxmordon; read it too fast. Just out of curiosity: How do you feel about systems where magic is treated as a science, with observable cause and effect?

FR

Straka · Jul 15, 2008

SPMiller said:
First, one quick order of business. There's a magical system which involves starting with a basic symbol (or set of basic symbols) and adding ornamentation/decoration to specify which effects you want the spell to have. What is this system called?

Perhaps glyph writing? Brandon Sanderson had something like that in his book Elantris. They were called Aons and you drew them in the air.

In terms of religion, despite what has happened to me in my life, I've felt the pull towards chance and probability as an explanation more so than towards a deity.

MattW · Jul 15, 2008

Straka said:
Perhaps glyph writing?

Maybe rune magic?

maxmordon · Jul 15, 2008

FinbarReilly said:
mamordon: Chronicles of Narnia is a bad example of non-Christian fantasy (too many biblical themes).

Magic: I prefer one with rules other than "convenient to plot".

The system of Magic: I have no idea, but it is an interesting system (I've seen it before in action).

FR

I said it AS an example of Christian fantasy. Since I misunderstood his post as that he disliked supernatural in fiction, comparing it to Christians who can only like Chronicles of Narnia

maxmordon · Jul 15, 2008

FinbarReilly said:
Er....oops. Sorry, maxmordon; read it too fast. Just out of curiosity: How do you feel about systems where magic is treated as a science, with observable cause and effect?

FR

If is well-written I enjoy it quite much...

I am a big Discworld fan by the way and this made me think on the Unseen University

SPMiller · Jul 15, 2008

Thanks for all the ideas so far. It's similar to rune magic and I've been using glyphics, but I'm pretty sure there's another term for it that's widely accepted. I think I've seen it, and it's of the form, "______ magic". I just can't find it despite all my searching, and that's really beginning to frustrate me. I can usually find whatever I want.

SPMiller · Jul 16, 2008

Got it! Sigil magic! Finally.

Straka · Jul 16, 2008

SPMiller said:
Got it! Sigil magic! Finally.

I just wikipediaed it, good to know. There are some authors who use very strict systems of magic so they are less fantastical. As I mentioned before Sanderson always does this.

Here's an link to an article he wrote on the subject: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/article/40/Sandersons-First-Law

Fantasy Writers Who Dislike Magic

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