Is There a Right and Wrong Number of Gods?

AnneMarble · Jul 14, 2008

In a writing chat, I once watched while a couple of posters tore about errors in fantasy ovels. (For example, in a very popular series, some of the author's crests would have been too hard to see on the battlefield, thus defeating the purpose of heraldry.)

They made some good points, but suddenly, one complaint made me think... "Wha?" :Wha:

One of the posters complained that the writer of a fantasy series had the wrong number of gods in her setting. I decided that she meant that the number of gods is consistent in most earth polytheistic religions (and I'm sure there area sociological reasons for that), and that this book didn't match those religions. Or something.

But in this case, I think the poster was missing a point. This was a fantasy novel, not a Joseph Campbell book. In a fantasy novel, unless the author tells me otherwise, I assume that the deities are real. (Even if the characters don't believe in them, they could very well be real.) Real gods don't conveniently settle themselves into the "acceptable" number of deities. They are gods, and they will appear in whatever numbers they damn well please.

So is there an "acceptable" number of gods? Or shouldn't this depend on the worldbuilding of the particular story? And if the gods are real, couldn't they appear in some random number?

C.bronco · Jul 14, 2008

I'd just copy Edith Wharton. That's my M.O.

pink lily · Jul 14, 2008

Sheesh, how can there be a "correct" anything in a fantasy story? Everything is invented!

SPMiller · Jul 14, 2008

(For example, in a very popular series, some of the author's crests would have been too hard to see on the battlefield, thus defeating the purpose of heraldry.)

Immediately I can tell you're talking about GRRM's series, because he's the only fantasy writer I know of who makes a big deal about heraldry. You can go ahead and name him

One of the posters complained that the writer of a fantasy series had the wrong number of gods in her setting.

The only way this argument could possibly make sense is if the writer in question had put her story in a real-world-inspired setting. Obviously, if she were writing historical fantasy about 8th century Scandinavians, there'd be "right" and "wrong" gods. But in a wholly constructed world, those rules wouldn't apply.

Straka · Jul 14, 2008

For one series I started, I created 36 gods from 5 different faiths... it was a lot of fun though only seven gods were introduced in the first story. It was a lot to remember and was somewhat unwieldy, but I admit that was much due to my delivery. If I go back to it I'll have to rewrite it to integrated them better.

AnneMarble · Jul 14, 2008

SPMiller said:
Immediately I can tell you're talking about GRRM's series, because he's the only fantasy writer I know of who makes a big deal about heraldry. You can go ahead and name him

Yup, it was GRRM.

Apparently he also got the temperature in which something or another is made (forged?) wrong, or something. I remember coming away with the feeling that for some readers, fantasy writers can do nothing right. Even GRRM didn't satisfy them. But I'm not writing for them, I'm writing for people who want to have fun.

(And who don't mind hot gay barbarians.)

SPMiller said:
The only way this argument could possibly make sense is if the writer in question had put her story in a real-world-inspired setting. Obviously, if she were writing historical fantasy about 8th century Scandinavians, there'd be "right" and "wrong" gods. But in a wholly constructed world, those rules wouldn't apply.

* Cancels plans for story about Bubba, the Norse God of barbecue *

I can understand being annoyed that he got some of the crafts wrong. Those involve the laws of physics. But the number of gods?

Come on, Hinduism has hundreds of thousands of deities, and Shintoism has millions. :e2tongue:

To further confuse things, after invasion, many cultures combined deities from both the defeated and the invading cultures. Imagine the chaos if the Japanese had taken over India. Then there would have been approximately 8 million and 330,000 gods to keep track of.

Straka said:
For one series I started, I created 36 gods from 5 different faiths... it was a lot of fun though only seven gods were introduced in the first story. It was a lot to remember and was somewhat unwieldy, but I admit that was much due to my delivery. If I go back to it I'll have to rewrite it to integrated them better.

It's all I can do to keep track of my chief gods.

I usually have characters cursing in his (or her) name and don't name the others. That doesn't mean I don't have the requisite number.

SPMiller · Jul 14, 2008

Only three gods appear in my current fantasy WIP. Some of the others are mentioned by name, but never appear. And that's because most of them are actually dead...

geardrops · Jul 14, 2008

My previous project had fifteen different religions.

I didn't even begin counting the gods.

If there's a threshold, I'm sure I passed it.

TMA-1 · Jul 14, 2008

We humans have invented hundreds, if not thousands of gods. It seems to me that there is no limit when it comes to writing myth and fantasy.

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 14, 2008

I was going to try say something intelligent, but was distracted by hot gay barbarian lovin'

Smiling Ted · Jul 14, 2008

You should only use whole numbers for pantheons.
Once you get into fractions, it raises some disturbing theological connotations.

Oh, well. Half a god is better than none.

geardrops · Jul 14, 2008

Smiling Ted said:
You should only use whole numbers for pantheons.
Once you get into fractions, it raises some disturbing theological connotations.

There's a joke to be made here with imaginary numbers, but I'm too tired. Someone else sort it out.

SPMiller · Jul 15, 2008

dempsey said:
There's a joke to be made here with imaginary numbers, but I'm too tired. Someone else sort it out.

But this is fantasy, where the imaginary becomes real.

Who cares about the theological implications? Consider the mathematical ones!

JimmyB27 · Jul 15, 2008

AnneMarble said:
In a fantasy novel, unless the author tells me otherwise, I assume that the deities are real. (Even if the characters don't believe in them, they could very well be real.)

Now you have me concerned. The god in my novel isn't real. And it's going to be some way in before that's made remotely clear.

Sarpedon · Jul 15, 2008

you know, I once created a world with a number of gods related to the idea of perfect numbers (in this case, 28) I eventually found it limiting, because while it seemed to be a lot, I had to shoe-horn these same 28 gods into all roles in every culture.

Then I made a world where the population of gods is unlimited, and that was much more fun. Every river was a god. Every mountain was a god. Every city had one or more unique gods. Even weather patterns were gods. The nice thing was that I could have a range of personalities for them. One river was kind and protective of the people living on its banks, another didn't care one way or another, and another felt that his holy waters should not be defiled by such mundane acts as boating, for example. A great deal of fun.

DeleyanLee · Jul 15, 2008

AnneMarble said:
In a writing chat,

*snip*

They made some good points, but suddenly, one complaint made me think... "Wha?" One of the posters complained that the writer of a fantasy series had the wrong number of gods in her setting.

Knowing what chat this most likely came up in, it doesn't surprise me, but it does sadden me because I think there's a slightly hidden point missed.

Most comments like that stem more from a reader's dissatisfaction and inability to explain what the problem is than what they say it is. "The wrong number" might well mean that she found the religion confusing or ill-presented or overwhelming or any other stumbling blocks to the flow of the prose. Pinning it on the "wrong number" was an easy way to pigeonhole the emotional response so she didn't need to think about it more--which is fine if this person were a reader and not a writer, IMHO.

What a great learning opportunity that was lost for them (which is the saddening part) since they just went so far and didn't explore their reader's reaction to understand what about the words on the page was wrong to improve their own writing. It's sad to see that active reading is becoming a lost skill among those who want to write.

AnneMarble · Jul 15, 2008

Smiling Ted said:
You should only use whole numbers for pantheons.
Once you get into fractions, it raises some disturbing theological connotations.

Oh, well. Half a god is better than none.

I think a patheon of fractions could be fun. They're always
fractious as it is.

And this could explain how Gilgamesh could be two-thirds god.

JimmyB27 said:
Now you have me concerned. The god in my novel isn't real. And it's going to be some way in before that's made remotely clear.

Then it will be even cooler when it's revealed.

Sarpedon said:
...Then I made a world where the population of gods is unlimited, and that was much more fun. Every river was a god. Every mountain was a god. Every city had one or more unique gods. Even weather patterns were gods. The nice thing was that I could have a range of personalities for them. One river was kind and protective of the people living on its banks, another didn't care one way or another, and another felt that his holy waters should not be defiled by such mundane acts as boating, for example. A great deal of fun.

That does sound like fun.

From a theory I read somewhere or another, it's probably close to what northern Europe was like at the time many of the famous bog men were, well, bogged down. We often think of ancient Europeans all worshipping the same groups of gods (more or less) across their respective territories. But there may have been hundreds of gods, many worshipped in a very small area. Maybe this village would worship Ralph the God of the River, and the next village would worship Gertrude the River Goddess.

Perle_Rare · Jul 15, 2008

Smiling Ted said:
You should only use whole numbers for pantheons.
Once you get into fractions, it raises some disturbing theological connotations.

Oh, well. Half a god is better than none.

You don't say? Now what will I do with my demi-gods? :Shrug:

DeleyanLee said:
Most comments like that stem more from a reader's dissatisfaction and inability to explain what the problem is than what they say it is. "The wrong number" might well mean that she found the religion confusing or ill-presented or overwhelming or any other stumbling blocks to the flow of the prose. Pinning it on the "wrong number" was an easy way to pigeonhole the emotional response so she didn't need to think about it more--which is fine if this person were a reader and not a writer, IMHO.

Agreed. In his thread, Uncle Jim states that readers will correctly identify a problem area in a story but they're almost invariably wrong when they state what the problem is or how to fix it.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 15, 2008

AnneMarble said:
One of the posters complained that the writer of a fantasy series had the wrong number of gods in her setting.

Did anyone bother to ask what she meant? Is it supposed to be a dozen?

I create as many gods as I think are necessary for the story. In fact, one novel, each country has it's own gods, some have one, other's have more. There's no set number.

How many gods does Man have?

DeleyanLee · Jul 15, 2008

Shadow_Ferret said:
How many gods does Man have?

As many as he feels he needs--and always more than he wants. LOL!

AnneMarble · Jul 15, 2008

DeleyanLee said:
Knowing what chat this most likely came up in, it doesn't surprise me, but it does sadden me because I think there's a slightly hidden point missed.

Most comments like that stem more from a reader's dissatisfaction and inability to explain what the problem is than what they say it is. "The wrong number" might well mean that she found the religion confusing or ill-presented or overwhelming or any other stumbling blocks to the flow of the prose. Pinning it on the "wrong number" was an easy way to pigeonhole the emotional response so she didn't need to think about it more--which is fine if this person were a reader and not a writer, IMHO.

Exactly. She probably meant that it seemed illogical, or that they didn't relate to the worldbuilding, or something like that. Maybe there were too many war gods, or not enough war gods. (For example, seven fertility gods and no war gods in a military society.) With no indication of why they had, for example, seventeen gods instead of seven. At least I guess that's what she meant.

DeleyanLee said:
What a great learning opportunity that was lost for them (which is the saddening part) since they just went so far and didn't explore their reader's reaction to understand what about the words on the page was wrong to improve their own writing. It's sad to see that active reading is becoming a lost skill among those who want to write.

Maybe that's because so many writers now read guidelines about writing and turn them into absolutes. It's easier that way. Instead of learning why something often doesn't work, they'll say, "Never do such-and-such."

Shadow_Ferret said:
Did anyone bother to ask what she meant? Is it supposed to be a dozen?

I guess I was afraid to.

I'd already tried to argue some of their points with "But it's a fantasy. Maybe flames burn a different temperature there." (That may have been a polite way of saying "Try to relax and enjoy the book, jeez.")

ReneC · Jul 15, 2008

Perhaps the work being discussed was an allegory, or some elements of it such as the deities. That could explain how the number of gods would be important, but otherwise it's pretty much personal preference.

tehuti88 · Jul 15, 2008

If the god system is entirely of the author's own creation, then the only way there can be a "wrong" number is if he/she contradicts his/her own rules. (For example, saying there are seventy gods on one page, then later on saying there are seventy-seven.)

Even with a system based on an existing belief system, there's room for change, granted that the writer makes note of this somewhere. Most fantasy stories based on existing belief systems do take liberties. (I know I do.)

And even IF the system is based on an existing belief system, some existing belief systems aren't even clear on how many gods there are! Nowhere is there an exact list of how many ancient Egyptian gods there were (the numbers varied so widely, gods would combine and break apart, people would be turned into demigods, foreign gods would be added to the pantheon, etc. etc. etc.), and don't even get started on how many spirits there are in American Indian belief systems.

The poster in question doth protest too much, methinks.

Matera the Mad · Jul 15, 2008

Numbers have very strong symbolism, and magical properties are attributed to them. It is wise to consider that in creating a consistent magical universe.

Hollan · Jul 15, 2008

42 gods is the acceptable number. Everyone else is wrong.

Is There a Right and Wrong Number of Gods?

Nefarious Ghost Fan

I have plans...

I regret everything

Prodigiously Hanged

Bored Fanatic

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Prodigiously Hanged

Good thing I like my day job

yes

Ah-HA!

Good thing I like my day job

Prodigiously Hanged

Hoopy frood

Writing Anarchist

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Dragon rider

Court Jester

Writing Anarchist

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Relapsed insomniac :(

Mackinac Island Fanatic

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Stage name = Chainsaw Sally