Self-Irony in Third Person

Gray Rose · Jul 8, 2008

I am in the process of rewriting my novel from 1st to 3rd. The last POV character has a kind of quirky, offbeat sense of humor that has a lot of self-irony. I am struggling with making it transfer into 3rd, without much success.

Example - 1st person.

But he didn't notice, too busy staring into my handsome, soulful eyes.

That's the character's irony and hubris speaking.

But the same thing in 3rd would be omni, and both irony and hubris would be gone.

Thoughts would be much appreciated. Do you maybe have books to recommend that do self-irony successfully in close 3rd?

Please don't suggest that I keep the first. There are five POV characters, of which the previous four worked fabulously in third. I cannot go back to 1st person narration now, nor do I want to.

Thanks!

geardrops · Jul 8, 2008

Some things just don't translate from first to third.

If it doesn't work, just pitch it

maestrowork · Jul 8, 2008

There are just fundamental differences between POVs. That's why sometimes 1st works and sometimes 3rd works, and it's not just a direct translation.

Matera the Mad · Jul 8, 2008

He didn't notice. Too busy staring into my soulful eyes, M.C. thought. Too frecken bad.

Makai_Lightning · Jul 8, 2008

maestrowork said:
There are just fundamental differences between POVs. That's why sometimes 1st works and sometimes 3rd works, and it's not just a direct translation.

^^ That sums it up nicely.

You still can write in your character's voice in 3rd person, but it can't be as intimate. Some things just don't work perfectly. If the 3rd person still uses your character's voice though, some of the idea could still be apparent. You might not have the full effect as you would in 1st person, but if you're not going to leave it in first person, you have to give up a little intimacy. If you decided that 3rd person is best, it's just a small sacrifice.

Good luck. You might not have to really worry about it.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 8, 2008

That's sarcasm, not irony.

But you can convey sarcasm in third-person writing. Saki and E.F. Benson did it all the time.

SPMiller · Jul 8, 2008

Matera's solution is workable, but I'd argue if you find yourself often looking for a way to get the character's thoughts onto the page like that, you might be better off in first. You might be stifling the character's voice.

Then again, I'm one of the people who urged you to not do this rewrite, so I'm biased.

If it's any help--misery loves company, amirite?--I'm having the same problem with my novel, which I'm trying to force into a close third-person narrative style. I keep wanting to do things I used to do in first, and find that I can't, or that it comes out awkward.

Kalyke · Jul 8, 2008

Third is:

1) Objective (no thoughts from any characters)
2) Omniscient (thoughts from all characters-- this is the person that editors don't like)
3) Limited Omniscient (thoughts from a select few, usually the MC and 1-2 others)

In Limited, you would say: he said, he thought, he saw etc.

Hubris means overwhelming pride and self love which is used to humiliate your victims. It does not refer to a person who likes his own looks, but generally generals, or nations at war. It is a very bad crime up on Mt. Olympus.

Gray Rose · Jul 8, 2008

Thanks for your thoughts, folks!

Maestroworks: I am not looking for a direct translation - never have, but I'd like to achieve a similar effect in third.

IceCreamEmpress said:
That's sarcasm, not irony.

But you can convey sarcasm in third-person writing. Saki and E.F. Benson did it all the time.

Sarcasm/irony - true. E.F. Benson writes in omni as far as I remember, that's a bit different, no? But you're right. I haven't read Saki.

SPMiller said:
Matera's solution is workable, but I'd argue if you find yourself often looking for a way to get the character's thoughts onto the page like that, you might be better off in first. You might be stifling the character's voice.

Then again, I'm one of the people who urged you to not do this rewrite, so I'm biased.

If it's any help--misery loves company, amirite?--I'm having the same problem with my novel, which I'm trying to force into a close third-person narrative style. I keep wanting to do things I used to do in first, and find that I can't, or that it comes out awkward.

I am not going to go with Matera's suggestion, although it is certainly valid. Ironically I had more thoughts in italics when I was writing in first. It just doesn't feel as natural to me to have a lot of italicized thoughts in this book.

It is a better book in third. Honest. And anyway I am stuck now, with 56K completed in third. Actually I am lying. There is a 7k long first person POV, but it is in a story frame. But I am not going to revert to 1st at this point.

If you are feeling you are forcing your book into 3rd, why not write it in first? I feel your pain, I do.

a_sharp · Jul 8, 2008

Having changed from first to third myself several times, I understand the problem of losing voice. With first, you can create a sardonic personality with wry observations and witty quirks that really develop the character. Shifting to third causes a lot of those inventions to be lost, but that's the price for placing the story in the proper voice. Seems you've already discovered third is the best for this book, and yes, it's hard to let go of your darlings, but making tough cuts is the writer's job anyway.

My hat's off to you for doing this for 50,000+ words. I've only done it to five or six chapters, probably under 10,000 words into the project. It's hard work but you bit the bullet. Good on ya.

David I · Jul 8, 2008

This sort of thing isn't that hard in third person. Yes, first person is "voicier" than third, and yes, there are somethings that will only work in first.

But in third person, once you are in so close that you are relating thoughts without "thinker attribution" (no "he thoughts"), you can toss off the same sort of thing you can do in first. You just have to be sure the reader knows how far you are zoomed in before you start.

Internal irony, sarcasm, and self-deprecation in third person are especially common in mystery/crime novels. It's not difficult. It just requires a lightly different touch

maestrowork · Jul 9, 2008

Yup, in third you wouldn't have the direct narrative voice, but you can still achieve the sarcasm, etc. through direct thought. It's allowed. For example, if this is in Jack's POV:

Jack covered his ring with his right hand. He hasn't noticed, too busy staring into my handsome, soulful eyes.

David I · Jul 9, 2008

maestrowork said:
Yup, in third you wouldn't have the direct narrative voice, but you can still achieve the sarcasm, etc. through direct thought. It's allowed. For example, if this is in Jack's POV:

Jack covered his ring with his right hand. He hasn't noticed, too busy staring into my handsome, soulful eyes.

Precisely.

(And if you fiddle these things, you can dispense with the italics--though they make Maestro's short example much clearer.)

maestrowork · Jul 9, 2008

And some may argue if you write in extremely close 3rd limited, you can achieve almost the same thing as 1st person. I personally like to keep some distance when I write in 3rd... otherwise, I tend to choose 1st to begin with.

ideagirl · Jul 9, 2008

Gray Rose said:
But the same thing in 3rd would be omni, and both irony and hubris would be gone.

Just find a different way to convey that character's self-deprecating sense of humor. How would you describe him if you were telling someone else about him? How--other than just flatly saying "he has a self-deprecating, ironic sense of humor"--would you convey that character trait of his to someone else? Just do that in your book.

SPMiller · Jul 9, 2008

I am not going to go with Matera's suggestion, although it is certainly valid. Ironically I had more thoughts in italics when I was writing in first. It just doesn't feel as natural to me to have a lot of italicized thoughts in this book.

Well, my solution so far has been to write the POV character's thoughts directly into the narrative (unadorned, no italics) in both first and third. I use this and other things to signal to the reader that I'm cleaved tightly enough to the character that it's natural to see the inner workings of their mind. So, I reserve italicization for other purposes: foreign words and telepathic communication and such.

CalGrave · Jul 9, 2008

SPMiller said:
Well, my solution so far has been to write the POV character's thoughts directly into the narrative (unadorned, no italics) in both first and third. I use this and other things to signal to the reader that I'm cleaved tightly enough to the character that it's natural to see the inner workings of their mind. So, I reserve italicization for other purposes: foreign words and telepathic communication and such.

So something like...

Frank opened the door and began jogging down the sidewalk. He was halfway down the street when he heard the distinct noise of stepping in dog :rant:

. He didn't give a crap, they weren't his shoes.

As apposed this guy.

Johnathan Digglesworth eased the door open and began to glide down the sidewalk. Halfway down the street he was certain he heard the distinct and unfortunately familiar noise of stepping in dog waste. Most foul! He would have to dispose of the shoes immediately.

Self-Irony in Third Person

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Makai_Lightning

Love Addict

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Kalyke

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!

a_sharp

Somebody give me an A

David I

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

David I

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

ideagirl

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

CalGrave