Hey Ma, look how good my writing is!

Seif · Jul 7, 2008

Hands up all those who are guilty of author(ial) intrusion...(I am).

According to John D. MacDonald author intrusion is 'My God, mamma, look how nice my writing is.'

Other than the comedic element of this quote it does resonate with almost every aspiring writer or published author who has written that 'masterpiece.' But it is a heart wrenching reality to confront when you must let go. My novel is guilty of this but I have seen worse in so many other published and hihgly praised books.

Particularly the worst offenders are the so-called classics, Jabe Eyre comes to mind, simply atrocious and so ful of pretense that I wanted to...anyway, have any of you guys committed such offenses and can you give any examples?

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 7, 2008

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Reilly616 · Jul 7, 2008

Me neither.

Mr Flibble · Jul 7, 2008

This is why it is essential to murder your darlings.

Takvah · Jul 7, 2008

Breaking down the "4th wall" or inserting some pithy commentary into your piece from some omnipresence aka the author... is what I'm guessing the OP is referring to. I've done it, sparingly and I am always keen to wonder how I'm going to feel about it when I'm editing the thing a couple of weeks or months later. I'll tell you, so far I have yet to keep something like that in. When you go back and read something you wrote and you're digging the vibe there is nothing worse than being taken out of it by what you thought at the time was witty insertion. Likewise, I don't imagine readers are going to appreciate it either... if I have some message or morality to convey, let it be through my characters, not some "Oz" that pops a quip in now and then.

SPMiller · Jul 7, 2008

Postmodern writers do this all the time. It doesn't fit my stories, however, so I don't use this trope.

Makai_Lightning · Jul 7, 2008

I'm not really sure what the OP meant, but I think it has to either be "breaking the 4th wall" as mentioned before, or possibly writing things that are "cool" just to be cool? I guess that because of the OP's reference to pretentious writing, like that "look how amazing I am" attitude from the writing itself.

To both: no, I don't think I've done either before. I've experimented with different odds and ends before, and different styles, but I only use them if I can make them serve a purpose, and if it turns out they don't, I cut.

Still not really sure how to answer this though. I tried.

Toothpaste · Jul 7, 2008

I use author intrusion, and I know for me it has nothing to do with showing off. It's a literary device. Like all literary devices it can work and not work depending on the author and the type of book.

I think you aren't talking about actual "author intrusion" though. I think you are talking about authors showing off in their writing. Authors going "I am so magnificent I will use the most purple prose you have ever read to demonstrate that". Yeah. That can be annoying.

However, I personally don't find Jane Eyre pretentious at all. It's a romantic melodrama, as in the literary genre, not the derogatory term we use today, and so of course every emotion, every description is heightened. Now you of course might not like this kind of literature, but to say the author was trying to show off. . . I dunno. How do you prove something like that?

scheherazade · Jul 7, 2008

I think it depends whether you're using it consistently through the piece, or just once. It can be fun or quirky to break that fourth wall (if that's what you meant). I'm sometimes inclined to make snarky asides when describing things in prose, because I tend to do that when I speak as well. Sort of like: "Jenny had a wardrobe full of shoes - but of course, that's mainly why she dated so many men, so she could get people to buy her shoes - and she couldn't imagine having to pack up all those shoes just to move to the apartment next door."

I workshopped a very short piece that had only one such aside, and everyone found it intrusive. But if it had been expanded into a larger piece where asides were a regular feature, then it wouldn't have seemed so out of place. Also, it depends whether the reader gets the sense that this is the narrator making tangents that will help you undersand what he/she is getting across (or the protagonist's mind shifting to some related thought), or whether the reader thinks, oh, hey, what's the author doing chipping in? Like a painter has painted a landscape with a barn and a tractor and some fence, then over top a clump of brown blobs, he's pencilled in the word "cows", as if the piece would otherwise not convey that idea. In that case, yeah, it would be pretty artificial. So it depends how you use it.

kuwisdelu · Jul 7, 2008

Toothpaste said:
I use author intrusion, and I know for me it has nothing to do with showing off. It's a literary device. Like all literary devices it can work and not work depending on the author and the type of book.

I think you aren't talking about actual "author intrusion" though. I think you are talking about authors showing off in their writing. Authors going "I am so magnificent I will use the most purple prose you have ever read to demonstrate that". Yeah. That can be annoying.

As a fan of postmodernism, I do this a lot, too. I love the irony and enjoy acknowledging the absurdity of writing/reading a book in general. I'll often write about characters writing about themselves, insert books within books, let the text refer to itself and become self-aware, address the reader directly. Really, it's a wonderful device. I don't think it has to be pretentious or showing-off. That's a completely different thing from postmodern author intrusion and the self-aware text.

scheherazade said:
I think it depends whether you're using it consistently through the piece, or just once. It can be fun or quirky to break that fourth wall (if that's what you meant). I'm sometimes inclined to make snarky asides when describing things in prose, because I tend to do that when I speak as well. Sort of like: "Jenny had a wardrobe full of shoes - but of course, that's mainly why she dated so many men, so she could get people to buy her shoes - and she couldn't imagine having to pack up all those shoes just to move to the apartment next door."

I workshopped a very short piece that had only one such aside, and everyone found it intrusive. But if it had been expanded into a larger piece where asides were a regular feature, then it wouldn't have seemed so out of place. Also, it depends whether the reader gets the sense that this is the narrator making tangents that will help you undersand what he/she is getting across (or the protagonist's mind shifting to some related thought), or whether the reader thinks, oh, hey, what's the author doing chipping in? Like a painter has painted a landscape with a barn and a tractor and some fence, then over top a clump of brown blobs, he's pencilled in the word "cows", as if the piece would otherwise not convey that idea. In that case, yeah, it would be pretty artificial. So it depends how you use it.

I go off on so many tangents and asides, and am so used to writing that does this kind of thing well, that I wouldn't blink at such an aside. Okay, if it were the only one in a story, and so obviously out of place? Yeah, that's bad.

Gynn · Jul 7, 2008

Toothpaste said:
I think you aren't talking about actual "author intrusion" though. I think you are talking about authors showing off in their writing. Authors going "I am so magnificent I will use the most purple prose you have ever read to demonstrate that". Yeah. That can be annoying.

I have this problem. I'll overdo a description of a scene or something else because I'm afraid that it looks too "plain".

I'm sure there's a happy medium between dull and extravogant.

Claudia Gray · Jul 7, 2008

Why do people insist on judging prose from 200 years ago by modern styles?

I am not saying that "classics" are safe from any and all criticism or are flawless. But it is frustrating to me to see people knock them for incorporating the styles and tropes that were beloved/in-demand in their day.

To offer something to the discussion at hand, yeah, beware of showing off. Besides, when you hit on something truly good -- instead of grasping for it -- IMHO, you generally know.

Seif · Jul 8, 2008

Toothpaste said:
I think you aren't talking about actual "author intrusion" though. I think you are talking about authors showing off in their writing. Authors going "I am so magnificent I will use the most purple prose you have ever read to demonstrate that". Yeah. That can be annoying.

If you read the post I used someones interpretation of author intrusion as a platform for discussion and what you said is consistent with the message he was trying to convey.

I've read some prose that though lyrical are distracting to the overall story. I am in some cases guilty of this and in trying to reconcile my own ego with the demands of the story I wish to learn from other writers experience.

I used Jane Eyre as an example because it's something I recently re-read (my WIP is also in first person). I don't wish to diss 'classics' but it was fresh in my head.

tehuti88 · Jul 8, 2008

I'm probably guilty of this (the original point of the thread, not authorial intrusion--I do that once in a great while, but knowingly, and definitely not to say how good my writing is

), but not consciously. I just write the way I write and make it the best I can. I'm certain, though, that there will be plenty of people who find what I write pretty lousy, longwinded, repetitive, melodramatic, etc. etc. But some other people might like it, and that's what matters, since I'm not seeking publication (and what gets published is, yet again, merely someone's matter of opinion).

That's all it ever seems to boil down to. Somebody will think something is fantastic, somebody else will wonder what the heck the author was thinking. You think Jane Eyre is lousy; I've never read it, probably never will, but it must be considered a "classic" for a reason--SOMEBODY thought it was written well.

I'd never write something just to think, "Look how wonderfully I can write!" Sure, I'll HOPE I'm writing wonderfully, and I might like what I write, but I'm not going to show off just for showing off's sake. That's a weird concept to me so I can't really explain it better.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 8, 2008

Takvah said:
Breaking down the "4th wall" or inserting some pithy commentary into your piece from some omnipresence aka the author... is what I'm guessing the OP is referring to.

Oh. Well most of my stuff is in first person, of course there's pithy commentary from the author.

Otherwise, the only time I did pithy commentary in a piece was in experimentation. Serious third person pieces get serious treatment. No author anywhere.

Takvah · Jul 8, 2008

Shadow_Ferret said:
Oh. Well most of my stuff is in first person, of course there's pithy commentary from the author.

You know the deal, take all suggestions with a grain of salt and keep writing

Cybernaught · Jul 8, 2008

Dumas intrudes in The Count of Monte Cristo a lot, but I dig it. He'd write something along the lines of, "Now our readers will remember how young Edmond Dantes ended up in Chateau d'if...." It felt like I was actually being told a story the good old fashioned way, around the campfire. Pretty cool stuff.

seun · Jul 8, 2008

Cybernaught said:
Dumas intrudes in The Count of Monte Cristo a lot, but I dig it. He'd write something along the lines of, "Now our readers will remember how young Edmond Dantes ended up in Chateau d'if...." It felt like I was actually being told a story the good old fashioned way, around the campfire. Pretty cool stuff.

That's because he did it well. Done badly, however, and you end up with...well, bollocks.

Kalyke · Jul 9, 2008

Jane Eyre was written in 1847. This is so long ago, you can consider it a completely different culture. What may seem atrocious and full of pretense about it may have been the way they thought, wrote, and communicated. Omniscient tense was used often then, in 100 years, it might be again, and we will all seem quaint and old-fashioned. I can't say I am a fan of Gothic literature of over 100 years old, but the best in that genre has survived much longer than the work of most of us writing in this era. That's kind of like saying Mozart wrote crap just because all you listen to is Green Day.

Phaeal · Jul 9, 2008

Seif said:
.
Particularly the worst offenders are the so-called classics, Jabe Eyre comes to mind, simply atrocious and so ful of pretense that I wanted to...anyway, have any of you guys committed such offenses and can you give any examples?

Yeah, Jabe Eyre is a worthless rip-off. Jane Eyre, on the other hand, is very tasty.

Jane Eyre is written in a nice tight first person, btw, not omniscient. There are no authorial intrusions.

Kalyke · Jul 9, 2008

Phaeal said:
Jane Eyre is written in a nice tight first person, btw, not omniscient. There are no authorial intrusions.

Yes. Sorry, I was only giving an example of something done 100 years ago that is not looked upon as conventional at this moment. I should not have included it. At least the words were spelled correctly.

angeliz2k · Jul 9, 2008

Seif said:
Hands up all those who are guilty of author(ial) intrusion...(I am).

According to John D. MacDonald author intrusion is 'My God, mamma, look how nice my writing is.'

Other than the comedic element of this quote it does resonate with almost every aspiring writer or published author who has written that 'masterpiece.' But it is a heart wrenching reality to confront when you must let go. My novel is guilty of this but I have seen worse in so many other published and hihgly praised books.

Particularly the worst offenders are the so-called classics, Jabe Eyre comes to mind, simply atrocious and so ful of pretense that I wanted to...anyway, have any of you guys committed such offenses and can you give any examples?

I'm sorry. I can no longer listen to anything you have to say, and I mean this (mostly) teasingly. Jane Eyre is my favorite book of all time!! It's not pretentious at all (you have to realize that there's a high level of irony and humor), and it certainly isn't attrocious. And if you're going to insult a literary classic and many people's favorite book, please do at least spell it correctly.

RG570 · Jul 9, 2008

I don't know, I think the height of pretension is not self-indulgent writing (especially when you have the ability to back this up), but picking on certain techniques in isolation and calling out everyone who likes to use them.

A novel can be so many things, it seems a shame to just use it as a vehicle to inject a mainstream movie into someone's head. Story really isn't always everything.

Cybernaught · Jul 9, 2008

seun said:
That's because he did it well. Done badly, however, and you end up with...well, bollocks.

Of course, and Dumas kept the intrusion very minimal. I'm sure that a talented writer could convey it well these days, though.

Seif · Jul 9, 2008

angeliz2k said:
I'm sorry. I can no longer listen to anything you have to say, and I mean this (mostly) teasingly. Jane Eyre is my favorite book of all time!! It's not pretentious at all (you have to realize that there's a high level of irony and humor), and it certainly isn't attrocious. And if you're going to insult a literary classic and many people's favorite book, please do at least spell it correctly.

No need to apologise, you have as much reason to praise a novel as I have to critique it. And if you are going to insult someones intelligence please do at least spell 'atrocious' correctly.

Please can the subsequent posts be directed towards the issue of author intrusion rather than the admittedly weak example I had given of it (Jane Eyre)? Just because I may have sounded ignorant and condescending does not mean that others may follow suit. Such comments are not helpful to the discussion at all.

Thanks to Shadow Ferret, Takvah, seun and Cybernaught for their helpful comments.

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