Dommes?

pretticute80 · Jul 6, 2008

Hey all,
I believe this is the best place to pose this. I am working on this story sci-fi/fantasy (no clue if that is even the genre it suppose be classified in but that’s a completely different thread), and I have a race of dommes. :whip:

While there is more going on with my characters than sex, sex does play a nice role in it. It’s more to them than that but I don’t want to bore you guys with those details. Anyway, I noticed that most stories that has some form of BDSM, is mostly written with the females as subbies. I am curious if this tendency is due to
1.) authors preference to write women in submissive roles
or
2.) readers preference to read women in submissive roles
Although I have no intentions to change my characters –my story is character-driven, and will complete my series (don’t laugh at how clichés series are for sci-fi/fantasy) I want to know if I will have to take my big girl pills (a couple of glasses of Riesling :e2drunk:

) for rejection because I wrote a story that is not marketable.

Mumut · Jul 6, 2008

The Australian Beureau of Statistics can prove that the highest percentage reading audience is female now and that the older women and the sub 20yo women has the fastest increase percentile of readers. In Aussieland, anyway.

When I'm signing books, females are the highest percentage book buyers (even taking into account there are many more of them in the shopping centre).

So I write about a heroine and I have a growing female audience for my work. My advice is to keep on the way you are - there's nothing wrong with it at all.

Darklite · Jul 6, 2008

I don't read much het erotica (fantasy/sci fi based or otherwise), but I would be far more inclined to read it if the females took on the dominant role. I like fiction that subverts (is that the right word?)gender roles, and I can't be the only one out there. Having said that I have no clue as to what's marketable and what's not. But how terribly dull it would be if the only marketable BDSM books out there were full of submissive females

veinglory · Jul 6, 2008

In erotic romance there is clear evidence in both what is published, and the submission guidelines, that female subs is the predominant fantasy. The reverse can be found and is far less common. I think more authors would write Femdom if publishers/readers seemed to be interested in it.

Rosedale · Jul 6, 2008

Psst... I'm posting under a different name; because of the Idol contest, my other username, associated with my real name, shows up in Google, and I'd hate to lose vanilla jobs because I also write erotica. (Oh, I'm the horse made of fire

)

Mumut said:
the sub 20yo women has the fastest increase percentile of readers. In Aussieland, anyway.

Do you mean under 20 or submissive?

How did you find the statistics? I haven't been able to locate them for North America.

I think submissive women outnumber submissive men. The most cited ratio is 1:20, but I've no idea whether that is true. I've written mostly about sub women, because I think (again, no statistics) dominant men read BDSM-related material more than Dommes or subs of either gender. Then again, I write pretty hard-core.

pretticute80 · Jul 6, 2008

Thank you for replying. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't change my characters from being dominant females -a lot of the conflict from their HEA stems from this fact (my males are pretty dominant and try to resist the females' control, talk about some nights of wanting to :guns:

myself for creating MCs like these).
I can see men wanting to read about submissive women (and three-ways with said women). I do have other races of women besides the dommes I asked about and one race is of submissive women but they are way in the background (they do such a good job at being subbies, I forget all about them :ROFL:

).
Serious, at this point, I know I can't write a submissive woman well despite my research on them. Perhaps when I get better at my craft and can do justice to their complex natures as well as I believe I do those of dominant women, I will.
I will go take my big girl pill.

HeronW · Jul 6, 2008

As a research device, perhaps joining a BDSM discussion in an adult forum could help you with getting a sub POV.

subs may be the ones being 'done to' but they are in control of the Domme.

pretticute80 · Jul 6, 2008

HeronW said:
As a research device, perhaps joining a BDSM discussion in an adult forum could help you with getting a sub POV.

subs may be the ones being 'done to' but they are in control of the Domme.

It may although I know quite a few real life female sub and from my research with them, I realize it would be a bit difficult for me to flesh them out to do them justice. I do have some hope because when I let one (who also writes) of them read a power-struggle scene between my female MC (domme) and my male MC (the sub but a dominant male), she said it was well donne.

Mumut · Jul 6, 2008

Rosedale said:
Do you mean under 20 or submissive? How did you find the statistics? I haven't been able to locate them for North America.

I meant under 20yo and I just went to the Bureau of Statistics office and searched their reports on reading age comparisons over the years. I suppose it is available online but I was in town so went in person.

Keyan · Jul 7, 2008

pretticute80 said:
Thank you for replying. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't change my characters from being dominant females -a lot of the conflict from their HEA stems from this fact (my males are pretty dominant and try to resist the females' control, talk about some nights of wanting to myself for creating MCs like these).

There's the whole Anne Bishop Jewels trilogy, where the women are powerful, and the men are pretty dominant but generally sub to the most powerful women. The power relationships in that series are interesting. AFAIK, they sold extremely well.

So I wouldn't think that your work is unsaleable on the basis of having a race of dommes.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 8, 2008

Not unsaleable, but you're going to have a smaller range of potential markets.

pretticute80 · Jul 9, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Not unsaleable, but you're going to have a smaller range of potential markets.

Yes that is what I worry about but I suppose it is just something I will learn to be okay with

. I knew from the moment these demanding characters entered my mind they were trouble but unfortunately, their stories are so vivid I must write them even though I suspected it would be hard to sell (even if being a dominatrix was common place). A lot of what my female characters do pushes the limits without remorse (but would be totally acceptable if it were a male MC) and chances are good that I probably will have to start off publishing other novels before I get a chance to bring them to the light of day.
Ah well, more big girl pils to swallow.

VoltShadow · Jul 10, 2008

It's all about the presentation and which market you want to read this. It'll be a little harder to push out in the states. Everyone reads erotic novels, but I've never got anyone to admit it (Aside from over the net of course. I might be hanging out with a crowd that's just a little less open minded than most people on this forum) But anyway, as far as het novels, You could pull off the limit pushing ladies, you just have to toss it to the right person and let it loose from there. It'll probably go over big in Australia, Europe and even the land of the rising sun too (I know some people there that would buy something like that in Japan).

pretticute80 · Jul 10, 2008

Yes, it would have to land in the hands of the right editor. Now that you mention, more of the edger books I've read have been from authors outside of the States. I'll keep in mind to try outside the US as well when its ready to be sent out into the cold cruel world.
At this point I know it won't work well just in erotica so who I'm marketing to, I have no clue. There is a good deal of sex in my stories but there is only two fleshed out sex scenes, a lot of sensual seduction but the rest is sort of implied (like one scene where my MC's is having a conversation with one of her friend while playing with a naked male chained to her bed, no actual "sex" takes place but it is very steamy).

Joycecwilliams · Jul 10, 2008

pretticute80 said:
Hey all,
I believe this is the best place to pose this. I am working on this story sci-fi/fantasy (no clue if that is even the genre it suppose be classified in but that’s a completely different thread), and I have a race of dommes. While there is more going on with my characters than sex, sex does play a nice role in it. It’s more to them than that but I don’t want to bore you guys with those details. Anyway, I noticed that most stories that has some form of BDSM, is mostly written with the females as subbies. I am curious if this tendency is due to
1.) authors preference to write women in submissive roles
or
2.) readers preference to read women in submissive roles
Although I have no intentions to change my characters –my story is character-driven, and will complete my series (don’t laugh at how clichés series are for sci-fi/fantasy) I want to know if I will have to take my big girl pills (a couple of glasses of Riesling ) for rejection because I wrote a story that is not marketable.

I led a BDSM group with my husband for 3 years. Believe me. There are tons of male subs. TONS.... it is a lot easier for a female to find a male dom, then it is for a male to find a female dom..

I just think that female subs are probably a sexier subject than male subs.

So that is why they are written about more. The public is not really informed on BDSM practices and they are more willing to accept a strong male controlling a female than a strong female controlling a male.

There are also a lot of poly relationships in BDSM.... which is never written about.... as far as I know...

Joycecwilliams · Jul 10, 2008

Have you tried http://www.circlet.com? I know the woman who owns it, and she is very active in the BDSM lifestyle...

pretticute80 · Jul 10, 2008

Joycecwilliams said:
Have you tried http://www.circlet.com? I know the woman who owns it, and she is very active in the BDSM lifestyle...

I will check it out. Thank you.

pretticute80 · Jul 10, 2008

Joycecwilliams said:
I led a BDSM group with my husband for 3 years. Believe me. There are tons of male subs. TONS.... it is a lot easier for a female to find a male dom, then it is for a male to find a female dom..

I just think that female subs are probably a sexier subject than male subs.

So that is why they are written about more. The public is not really informed on BDSM practices and they are more willing to accept a strong male controlling a female than a strong female controlling a male.

There are also a lot of poly relationships in BDSM.... which is never written about.... as far as I know...

Out of curiosity, what makes a female sub sexier?
I know many (well the many that I've spoken with) who aren't into BDSM thinks males who are subs are somewhat less manly and I have worked really hard to show this isn't so in my story and portray them as sexy as they are in my head. With the exception of one male character (who was brought up in the dom/sub environment), all my males have limitations with their females. Like one couple has an arrangement that he would submit to her but only in her domain and when she visit him (the couple do not live together because both are head dogs in charge of their people), she has to submit to him (she tries to get out of this a lot). Another male doesn't go for being whipped or sharing his Mistress.

Joycecwilliams · Jul 10, 2008

pretticute80 said:
Out of curiosity, what makes a female sub sexier?
I know many (well the many that I've spoken with) who aren't into BDSM thinks males who are subs are somewhat less manly and I have worked really hard to show this isn't so in my story and portray them as sexy as they are in my head. With the exception of one male character (who was brought up in the dom/sub environment), all my males have limitations with their females. Like one couple has an arrangement that he would submit to her but only in her domain and when she visit him (the couple do not live together because both are head dogs in charge of their people), she has to submit to him (she tries to get out of this a lot). Another male doesn't go for being whipped or sharing his Mistress.

I can only give you my opinion on that.. I can't speak for the rest of the world. First off, I think in general that society find women more sexier than men naked. Second I think it is also that sub males aren't always masculine.. I've had men that have wanted to come over and do clean my house, some to lick my feet. I personally find none of that sexy. A true dom/sub relationship does have limitations... which are always discussed before hand.

Male subs are often whiney.. if they don't get enough attention from their mistress. I don't like to be in a relationship with sub men, but I don't mind switches.

Are you in this lifestyle?

Joycecwilliams · Jul 10, 2008

HeronW said:
As a research device, perhaps joining a BDSM discussion in an adult forum could help you with getting a sub POV.

subs may be the ones being 'done to' but they are in control of the Domme.

Not the Dommes I know..

they don't like subs topping from the bottom and will drop them like a hot potato...

pretticute80 · Jul 10, 2008

Yes, the question of what is sexy is a subjective one.
I had a past d/s relationship that I enjoy very much –probably why some of it slips into my writing. I didn’t have problems with whiney but I can see how this is an issue although I would assume the same could be said of female subs too?
I don’t think I have too much of a problem with my characters being whiney though –perhaps because they aren’t really human. Most of my trouble with my characters stem from the fact that they do have that alpha mentality and making sure that their interactions with their Mistress are consistent and flows with who they are to keep it believable (or as believable as sci-fi/fantasy can be).

Joycecwilliams · Jul 10, 2008

It is difficult for me to imagine an alpha being a sub. It doesn't ring true. Maybe you should make them switches..

Did you ever read anything by Gloria Brame?

Joycecwilliams · Jul 10, 2008

A female sub also can be made to have sex with another male or female... by her dom. Most men find the female on female aspect a turn on...

Ya know I've seen somethings... I can't get out of my mind... concerning male subs... like one guy had 20 clothes pins on his testicles.. I didn't find that attractive..

Female subs don't whine like male subs... I've known them both... I am not saying that all male subs whine, but in general they whine more.

pretticute80 · Jul 10, 2008

Joycecwilliams said:
A female sub also can be made to have sex with another male or female... by her dom. Most men find the female on female aspect a turn on...

Joycecwilliams said:
Ya know I've seen somethings... I can't get out of my mind... concerning male subs... like one guy had 20 clothes pins on his testicles.. I didn't find that attractive..

Female subs don't whine like male subs... I've known them both... I am not saying that all male subs whine, but in general they whine more.

I don't have the clothes pin action going on although there is a form of a chastity belt used. I only have one couple that has group sex, primarily because my male characters don’t share. As I mention, sex is not the main plot of my stories –it’s a lot going on, but I don’t downplay it because it’s a part of my female MC’s life –part she truly enjoys. The only time when I really go into detail about the kinky sex is during the ritual ceremony when the female reaches the age of maturity or takes on a permanent pet/sub. Everything else is pretty much background noise to set the setting of the world they live in. Such as when a visitor comes to the planet they may see a male being led around on a leash or being publicly fondled. :e2slap:

Joycecwilliams said:
It is difficult for me to imagine an alpha being a sub. It doesn't ring true. Maybe you should make them switches..

Joycecwilliams said:
Did you ever read anything by Gloria Brame?

Switch? Hmm. It would be easier to make them switch and I have tried altering them before but as I said before, female subs elude me and I had trouble writing the story. The only couple I have that do switch roles is the couple I mention earlier and that depends on where they are at and the female tries to find ways out of it like you won’t believe. I don’t think it is possible to change the dynamics of their relationship –I also like their interaction, because it is important to who they are. My females aren’t the submissive type and it does take quite a bit of work to keep my male’s strong persona when they are interacting with their lovers but it is something I feel can be achieved. I’m still unpublished so I don’t know yet if I convey this well or not but hopefully so.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 11, 2008

Building on Joyce's point, I think that the public at large is indeed more comfortable with maledom than femdomme fiction. One factor might be that so much of the mainstream romance and porn rhetoric is in the "man overpowering woman" vein already, from the "punishing kisses" cliches of many romance novels on up.

And, as Joyce points out, in the BDSM community (and even more so in the sex work community), there's a lot of het male sub energy. It's kind of mysterious, isn't it?

I think that good femdomme erotica would appeal to a lot of readers. The trick is to find a publisher who's not closed to it.

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