Said-Bookisms, Tom Swifites, What have you

Talkatoast · Jul 5, 2008

I am arguing with one of my writing groups about this. They seem to think that said-bookisms are fabulous, and they don't seem to give a flying flip about what the real world of writing thinks. They also don't seem to realize that the authors they read are allowed to get away with them because often times, their stories are so good, the editors don't care what tags they use. I understand they're okay once in a while, but they seem to use them like they use a thesaurus. I can't get it through them that editors hate them and it would probably up their chances of publishing if said-bookisms remain scarce. I have always learned that if the dialogue is strong enough, then there is no need for a said-bookism. Christ! I even gave them hundreds of links on said-bookisms and one of them insists on arguing with me!

How can I persuade them that too many said-bookisms make for shoddy/melodramatic dialogue without sounding too mean or pretentious?

Talkatoast · Jul 5, 2008

Oops. Kind of slow today. Can somebody move this thread elsewhere?

amnesiotic · Jul 5, 2008

Maybe explain them it's laziness from the author, or perhaps it shows insecurities about his/her own writing? I admit I'm guilty of using said-bookisms, or adding an adverb after said, and it's mostly because I'm in a hurry to get to the action part. Sometimes it's because I'm afraid the readers don't 'feel' the scene.

When a scene creates the right atmosphere, said-bookisms are redundant and, in my opinion, only shows the insecurity of the writer. If the author writes his character strong enough, showing their personality through dialogue and narration, said-bookisms are rarely necessary.

Just my opinions and experiences

kct webber · Nov 6, 2008

I co-run a writers group with a few experienced writers and a lot of inexperienced writers, so I come across similar situations every so often. I can only tell you what I do, and why.

I tell them what I know. I provide them links, info, etc. I give of myself and my knowledge freely. If they don't listen, they don't listen. I don't argue with them. While I'm there to help, it's by no means my responsibility to ensure that they get published. It's my responsibilty to tell them. That's all. They can use it or not. That part is not my problem.

I understand your frustration. Watching someone make the same mistakes over and over is maddening. But sometimes you just have to shrug and say, 'fine, do whatever you want.'

Gary Clarke · Nov 15, 2008

I'm terribly guilty of both these appalling crimes against literature. I use both all the time. Everywhere. And sometimes, when I don't use them, my editor sneaks them in on me. Maybe I should have gone to some writing classes.

Ah well.

I'm just raggin on you, TT :0D I think kct is right. There's no point turning yourself into a pain in arse over this. Make your point and move on, if they listen they listen. You can't be the literature police.

Dale Emery · Nov 15, 2008

Talkatoast said:
How can I persuade them that too many said-bookisms make for shoddy/melodramatic dialogue without sounding too mean or pretentious?

Don't. It isn't your business to convince them. It's your business to tell them how their writing affects you. Then they get to decide what to do with your feedback.

Dale

Dawnstorm · Nov 16, 2008

This is what happens when authors talk about this amongst themselves. Take from it what you will.

HarrisLiteraryscamsu · Nov 16, 2008

Writers: polish incessantly. The adverbs and bookisms will thin out naturally. Identifiers should be staggered.

MumblingSage · Nov 16, 2008

Talkatoast said:
I am arguing with one of my writing groups about this. They seem to think that said-bookisms are fabulous, and they don't seem to give a flying flip about what the real world of writing thinks. They also don't seem to realize that the authors they read are allowed to get away with them because often times, their stories are so good, the editors don't care what tags they use. I understand they're okay once in a while, but they seem to use them like they use a thesaurus. I can't get it through them that editors hate them and it would probably up their chances of publishing if said-bookisms remain scarce. I have always learned that if the dialogue is strong enough, then there is no need for a said-bookism. Christ! I even gave them hundreds of links on said-bookisms and one of them insists on arguing with me!

How can I persuade them that too many said-bookisms make for shoddy/melodramatic dialogue without sounding too mean or pretentious?

"Write a long string of dialog with lots of said-isms," she advised.
"Are you sure that's a good idea?" he queried.
"Of course it's not a good idea," she snapped. "That's the idea of it."
"I don't follow you," he complained timidly.
"Well, look," she exclaimed. "This is terrible reading here, isn't it?"
"Horrible," he agreed.
"So, if an example of just how painful said-isms are won't get them to stop, they can be given up on as hopeless," she concluded.

Seriously. Read a piece of writing aloud that is overrun with said-isms. And don't breathe a word about the presence of the said-isms. Just let them announce themselves.

It's all you can do.

Chris Huff · Nov 16, 2008

Talkatoast said:
I am arguing with one of my writing groups about this. They seem to think that said-bookisms are fabulous, and they don't seem to give a flying flip about what the real world of writing thinks. They also don't seem to realize that the authors they read are allowed to get away with them because often times, their stories are so good, the editors don't care what tags they use. I understand they're okay once in a while, but they seem to use them like they use a thesaurus. I can't get it through them that editors hate them and it would probably up their chances of publishing if said-bookisms remain scarce. I have always learned that if the dialogue is strong enough, then there is no need for a said-bookism. Christ! I even gave them hundreds of links on said-bookisms and one of them insists on arguing with me!

How can I persuade them that too many said-bookisms make for shoddy/melodramatic dialogue without sounding too mean or pretentious?

You can lead a writer to water, but you can't make them think.

Some people don't care. They think they're so good that "the rules" don't apply to them. Even though they've never been published. Then they wonder why they don't get published. Lost cause. Move on.

benbradley · Nov 16, 2008

Write something from this name and let them read it:

"Tom Swift and his Overly Descriptive Adverbs."

The Lonely One · Nov 16, 2008

Probably the best way is to let an editor (or twelve) tell them with pretty rejection letters.

Maybe I'm just being a jerk, though.

I mean, look at Harry Potter--no one seems to mind the million and a half tom swifties in those books.

xlibrian · Nov 16, 2008

Talkatoast said:
I even gave them hundreds of links on said-bookisms and one of them insists on arguing with me!

i think there really are moments that you have to let writers be. the rules are there as a guide but not to put writers in a box.

just my honest opinion...

scarletpeaches · Nov 16, 2008

I know of one writer, sorry, 'writer' who insists she won't read a 'how to' book because she doesn't want other people telling her how to write. So there are some people like that, who see help or constructive criticism as "You're doing it wrong."

Well, maybe they are doing it wrong. And there are folks on this site who have said (rightly) that you can't change other people and just have to leave them to it.

It's less competition for those of us who admit we need help to get published. No, I don't have an agent - yet. But who stands a better chance of making it? Someone who admits they need help to get there, or someone who proudly insists, "No - I'll do it my way!" People like that will never be published.

Fair enough. Less competition, as I said. Leave them be. At the end of their lives, their record (or lack thereof) will be testament to who was right and who was wrong.

Said-Bookisms, Tom Swifites, What have you

Talkatoast

Talkatoast

amnesiotic

kct webber

Squirrel, Sekrit type, 1 ea.

Gary Clarke

Knackered

Dale Emery

is way off topic

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here

HarrisLiteraryscamsu

MumblingSage

Inarticulate Herb

Chris Huff

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

The Lonely One

Why is a raven like a writing desk?

xlibrian

scarletpeaches