The Writing Life

scope · Jun 30, 2008

If you get a chance check out Terry Whalin's blog on his "The Writing Life" site. The one dated Sunday, June 30th, named "The Unknown Author."

It's terrific.

Soccer Mom · Jun 30, 2008

linky?

nerds · Jun 30, 2008

here 'tis:

http://terrywhalin.blogspot.com/

Toothpaste · Jun 30, 2008

It's interesting, but I"m not sure I agree 100% with it. He comes from a non-fiction background first of all, I know he was talking about fiction too but it seems quite obvious he is trying to apply one paradigm to another. Yes I wrote paradigm.

See here's the thing. I believe authors should do everything they can to help their publishers promote. But I also know, from personal experience, that I didn't have any sort of platform when it came to my book. The only thing they could say about me was my acting which would make me good in front of crowds. Any internet presence I had came after the agent/publication deal. He truly believes fiction writers need to have a platform BEFORE getting published . . . ? Well maybe the ones he takes on do, but I know many many authors who haven't and who have been published just fine.

I think everything he says is wise, and worth listening to, but I truly disagree with the idea of fiction writers needing to have a platform in order to get published. Simply because I know it not to be true.

nerds · Jun 30, 2008

Think of the great fiction writers over time whose work would never have seen a press had they been required to possess a platform. It's actually frightening to me when considered.

scope · Jun 30, 2008

Toothpaste & nerdsRus,

In no way am I defending Whalin's beliefs, I just thought they were interesting. True or not I really don't know. Your points are well taken, and you might want to consider sending him an email expressing your opinions, and asking for a reply. I read his blog every day and although I often agree with him there are times when I don't. In such cases, at times, I've sent him an email expressing my thoughts and/or asking a question. To his credit he has always responded rather quickly [he doesn't know me from a whole in the wall].

Since I write only nonfiction I can't reply intelligently about his beliefs re fiction and promotion, and therefore can't take an intelligent position on what he said. However, it does make sense that a writer who can bring promotion tools to the table along with a good book is in better stead than a writer of similar caliber book who does not have promotional abilities.

nerdsRus, with all due respect, the works of great fiction (or nonfiction) writers over time were never required to have a platform in days past. Today, it's a whole different story.

SPMiller · Jun 30, 2008

The explanation was inadequate. I'm not even sure what the hell exactly a "platform" is, much less how a novelist is supposed to build one before publishing a novel. Short stories definitely build name recognition within the industry--which is great!--but they sure don't work on the general audience.

Soccer Mom · Jun 30, 2008

I have no idea what he means by a platform by a novelist and posted to ask him to clarify.

scope · Jun 30, 2008

SPMiller, Again, I'm not for or against a platform for writers of fiction. Being a writer of nonfiction I don't know whether or not it helps. However, I don't see how it could a hindrance. But you and others writer's of fiction are in the best position to make such a decision.

I am surprised that you don't know what a platform is. A platform is an important part of any proposal that's submitted to an agent or a publisher.
I'll give you an example of a proposal of mine:
Page 1: Title Page

Page 2: Table of Contents

Introduction
>Overview 3-4
>Specifications 4-5
>Market 5-6
>Platform 7-11
>Competition 11-12
>Bio 12
>Published Books 13-15

Chapter Outline (List Pages #'s Below)
1............................
2............................
3............................
4............................
5............................

Index

Simply put, for me, the platform is the part where I detail what I definitely can do and specifically (with detail) what I intend to do to help bring greater exposure to my book and increase sales -- over and above what the publisher will do.

Elodie-Caroline · Jul 1, 2008

I'm not a blog reader but managed to read the first paragraph and then skimmed to where he started advertising a book. Then, shrugs, well, I got bored, so you'll have to forgive me.

Anyway, as for a platform, I am a very prominent member of a website with over a million members. I've been a member there for over seven years and used to be the queen of the forums, but I gave that all up to write for myself, my novels, instead of keeping the multitude entertained.
Some people loved me on there, some didn't because I was very controversial. Lots of them want to read my novels. a) Because they think they'd be good as they've read some of my stuff and also because they like me. b) Then there's some who would read them because they think they'd be bad and they want to scoff.

So I am already semi-famous. But I really don't think, that by me mentioning that lots of people, from a huge website, will buy my books, will get my size 3 foot into the publishing world, will it :tongue

Elodie

Soccer Mom · Jul 1, 2008

Hmmm, I read his response. Gonna have to think about this one. I"m not so sure trying to market myself before I have anything to market is really that productive. Start a newsletter? Really? I'm just not sold on the concept that you can establish yourself in fiction unless you are actually in the business. There are zillions of reviewers, newsletters, bloggers, etc out there. Another one really wouldn't mean squat. I think I'm better served by spending my energy on making my fiction fabulous. But like I said, I'm going to think about this one some more.

scope · Jul 1, 2008

Elodie-Caroline,

Putting aside the platform issue re fiction, if you were a blog contributor to the website you refer to, not just a very popular poster, I think you'd have lots of fodder for your platform (i.e., millions of readers daily or weekly looking for you posts). But as member only, I tend to agree with you.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 1, 2008

scope said:
I am surprised that you don't know what a platform is. A platform is an important part of any proposal that's submitted to an agent or a publisher.

Fiction writers don't write proposals, which is probably why SPM doesn't know about platform.

And this is why Whalin's advice is off-base for novelists--there's really no place for platform in a fiction query. Credits, yes; platform, no.

dgiharris · Jul 1, 2008

I consider his advice as something that can help you, but at the same time is in no means a prerequisite.

Can having a platform help? Sure. Is it required for fiction? IMO no.

Soccer mom makes a great point, what is the point of building a platform if you don't have a book to sell?

I think the best use of energy is to write the book first. Similarly, a platform will do you little good if the book sucks.

In terms of building an audience. My belief is that you should get a few shorts published just to prove your viability and commercialbility. BUt its not like readers of your shorts are going to flock to the bookstore to find your novel. BUt I would think that having a resume of publications would help with marketing yourself which would help with getting your book out there.

But I think that the magnitude of that help pales in comparison to the quality of the book.

Mel...

Norman D Gutter · Jul 1, 2008

IceCreamEmpress said:
Fiction writers don't write proposals, which is probably why SPM doesn't know about platform.

And this is why Whalin's advice is off-base for novelists--there's really no place for platform in a fiction query. Credits, yes; platform, no.

The agent who liked the novel I pitched to her at a recent conference asked me to send her a proposal for the novel. Her web site gives the details of what should go in the proposal: quick overview, synopsis, author info, competing titles, marketing plan, first 30 pages of the novel.

So some placed do use proposals for novels.

DAT

scope · Jul 1, 2008

Whalin

IceCreamEmpress said:
Fiction writers don't write proposals, which is probably why SPM doesn't know about platform.

And this is why Whalin's advice is off-base for novelists--there's really no place for platform in a fiction query. Credits, yes; platform, no.

As I've said a few times I truly have no idea or feeling about the bad or good of proposals as it applies to writers of fiction. As a writer of nonfiction a proposal and platform is second nature to me, as I imagine it is to other writers of nonfiction.

I only tried to illuminate SPM as to what a platform and proposal is since he said he never heard of one. I was not suggesting he use it.

Elodie-Caroline · Jul 1, 2008

Scope,
The site I belong to doesn't actually have blogs, and if they did, I still wouldn't contribute to them. Whilst I was writing a blog, if I did, I would personally see it as wasting time that I could be writing my fiction.
All power to people that do write blogs, and I did try one once for around three separate times, but it's just not my thing. They are the same as keeping a diary, and I only ever did that for around three months of my life too.

scope said:
Elodie-Caroline,

Putting aside the platform issue re fiction, if you were a blog contributor to the website you refer to, not just a very popular poster, I think you'd have lots of fodder for your platform (i.e., millions of readers daily or weekly looking for you posts). But as member only, I tend to agree with you.

nerds · Jul 1, 2008

But there are proposals/prospectus, and there is the expectation that one have a platform. Those are two different animals - I know, I write non-fiction, and I know what I have to provide and what the distinctions are. In my opinion, the finest fiction across time has been that written by people who attended the School of Life, Participation, and Observation. People who obtain a Master's in bleeping life, who listen to others' conversations, who observe, who participate, who think about what they've seen, experienced, and heard.

That's probably a quaint, outdated, old-fashioned view, but it's my view and I'm sticking to it. I don't give a flying rat's backside what a fiction writer's PLATFORM is. I care about whether or not they tell a story well and show me through that that they've at least participated in the human race for fifteen seconds.

For crying out loud. Let's just sanitize all things creative. Can't publish fiction unless you've got this this and this. Can't hang a painting in public unless you have X credentials and letters of recommendation from the Met or RISD. Can't perform off-Broadway without having attended wherever. Screw the talent, we want the creds. Jiminy Christmas. What a pitiful sterile world this will be if things go this way.

:e2teeth:

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 1, 2008

Norman D Gutter said:
The agent who liked the novel I pitched to her at a recent conference asked me to send her a proposal for the novel. Her web site gives the details of what should go in the proposal: quick overview, synopsis, author info, competing titles, marketing plan, first 30 pages of the novel.

That's quite unusual! But there you are--it's a big world and everything happens at least once.

I was just suggesting that scope needn't be "surprised" that SPM was unaware of "platform" because fiction writers are never asked to write proposals for novels. However, I sit corrected, and will revise that statement to: fiction writers HARDLY EVER are asked to write proposals.

nerdsRus said:
I don't give a flying rat's backside what a fiction writer's PLATFORM is.

Neither do the vast majority of agents--Terry Whalin seems to be poorly informed.

Norman D Gutter · Jul 1, 2008

I have met Terry Whalin, took a continuing class of his at a conference, and pitched my novel to him, all when he was a fiction acquisitions editor and, now that he is an agent (he does not represent me), I stay in touch with him--trying to extend/maintain contacts in the industry. He is not poorly informed. What he is saying is, if an editor culls through the queries/proposals/partials for a novel, and ends up with two pretty much equal choices as far as the quality of the writing and suitability of the concept, and one of those two authors has been working on building an audience and one hasn't, guess whose novel will be accepted?

Now, I'm not real thrilled about this. I hate the fact that a novelist should be expected to have a platform before being published. It seems unfair and counter-productive. But I've quit whining about it and adjusted my career plan to do it. I can't change the industry, but I can change me.

NDG

CheshireCat · Jul 1, 2008

Soccer Mom said:
Hmmm, I read his response. Gonna have to think about this one. I"m not so sure trying to market myself before I have anything to market is really that productive. Start a newsletter? Really? I'm just not sold on the concept that you can establish yourself in fiction unless you are actually in the business. There are zillions of reviewers, newsletters, bloggers, etc out there. Another one really wouldn't mean squat. I think I'm better served by spending my energy on making my fiction fabulous. But like I said, I'm going to think about this one some more.

My agent heartily agrees with you, as do I. And, for what it's worth, the editors I know personally all say they're looking for good, strong stories and don't understand how "platform" even got into the vocabulary of novelists. It's one thing if you're Robin Cook and happen to be a doctor and then write a medical thriller; it's quite another to write a novel about a PI investigating a crime and panic because you have no private investigator street cred.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The editors and publishers who are currently asking their novelists and other fiction writers for their "platforms," or for their marketing plans and promotion ideas, are trying to set a dangerous precedent. It is the job of the publisher to market and promote our work. We produce it, and they market it. That's the deal. That's always been the deal.

Every time a publisher shifts more of the non-writing responsibility onto the shoulders of the writer, that publisher is attempting to limit the use of their own resources, save themselves some money and time, and, therefore, put less effort behind the product they are marketing.

And if you think that's a good idea, add the extra burden to every single book you write. For a working writer already asked to produce at least a book a year (and often more), the strain on energies, creative and otherwise, can destroy a career before it can get established.

In my opinion, of course.

nerdsRus said:
But there are proposals/prospectus, and there is the expectation that one have a platform. Those are two different animals - I know, I write non-fiction, and I know what I have to provide and what the distinctions are. In my opinion, the finest fiction across time has been that written by people who attended the School of Life, Participation, and Observation. People who obtain a Master's in bleeping life, who listen to others' conversations, who observe, who participate, who think about what they've seen, experienced, and heard.

That's probably a quaint, outdated, old-fashioned view, but it's my view and I'm sticking to it. I don't give a flying rat's backside what a fiction writer's PLATFORM is. I care about whether or not they tell a story well and show me through that that they've at least participated in the human race for fifteen seconds.

For crying out loud. Let's just sanitize all things creative. Can't publish fiction unless you've got this this and this. Can't hang a painting in public unless you have X credentials and letters of recommendation from the Met or RISD. Can't perform off-Broadway without having attended wherever. Screw the talent, we want the creds. Jiminy Christmas. What a pitiful sterile world this will be if things go this way.

I agree -- obviously. Writers write. It's what we do, and God knows it's hard enough even when that's all we have to think about. Add in the demands of a normal life, plus the usual career-management stresses, and we have our hands and our heads full.

Marketing and promoting is and should be the publisher's part of the partnership. It's what they're set up to do.

And for what it's worth, I've never heard an editor exclaim, "Man, that was a hell of a marketing plan that writer presented!" But I have heard many editors over the years exclaim, "Man, I read the best story in manuscript from a new writer!"

That's what they get excited about. And that's as it should be.

IceCreamEmpress said:
That's quite unusual! But there you are--it's a big world and everything happens at least once.

I was just suggesting that scope needn't be "surprised" that SPM was unaware of "platform" because fiction writers are never asked to write proposals for novels. However, I sit corrected, and will revise that statement to: fiction writers HARDLY EVER are asked to write proposals.

Neither do the vast majority of agents--Terry Whalin seems to be poorly informed.

Well, I've never, ever, ever been asked for a platform, but a proposal, on the other hand ... I've always been asked for a proposal for a new contract. It isn't detailed, and quite often contains little except my working titles and a few character names, but the publisher (a major one), wants something in writing before they go to contract, usually. Every publisher I've written for has asked for that, if only so that they can insert a few specifics into the contracts.

Norman D Gutter said:
I have met Terry Whalin, took a continuing class of his at a conference, and pitched my novel to him, all when he was a fiction acquisitions editor and, now that he is an agent (he does not represent me), I stay in touch with him--trying to extend/maintain contacts in the industry. He is not poorly informed. What he is saying is, if an editor culls through the queries/proposals/partials for a novel, and ends up with two pretty much equal choices as far as the quality of the writing and suitability of the concept, and one of those two authors has been working on building an audience and one hasn't, guess whose novel will be accepted?

Now, I'm not real thrilled about this. I hate the fact that a novelist should be expected to have a platform before being published. It seems unfair and counter-productive. But I've quit whining about it and adjusted my career plan to do it. I can't change the industry, but I can change me.

NDG

Honestly, the publishers I've written for not only don't ask if a novelist has a platform, they generally want writers to stay out of promotional stuff beyond signings or whatever the publisher asks them to do. Because they pay people in-house, plus advertising agencies, a lot of money to do that work, and a ham-handed author blundering around can screw up projects and relationships.

And, yes, I actually heard a publisher (the actual person heading up the house) say that. In those words.

Write a strong book, and you increase your chances of getting published.

Platform? I doubt many novelists could build one strong enough to compete with the resources of a major publisher.

For what it's worth.

Irysangel · Jul 1, 2008

Have to agree with CeCe. When Pocket acquired my book, nobody said a sniff about a platform. My friend is contracted with Ace. No platform.

Sorry. Platform != Novel

Norman D Gutter · Jul 1, 2008

Possibly it's different in the general market than in the Christian market. When I met with the agent last month, after ascertaining from my pitch that my novel had potential, she asked, "Do you speak? Do you have a web site? What will you do to market the book?" This was an agent who sells mainly to the Christian market, but some in the general.

Possibly the general market is different. I have no experience with and have not researched that, so I can't comment on whether agents/editors in those markets ever consider what ready-made audience a potential author brings them, and whether they expect the author to be proactive in marketing. The only general author I've ever discussed this with, David Morrell (First Blood), does some very creative things to market his books.

It almost sounds as if we are talking about two different publishing systems.

NDG

CheshireCat · Jul 1, 2008

Norman D Gutter said:
It almost sounds as if we are talking about two different publishing systems.

NDG

Possibly, although there are published authors who believe passionately that they should work to promote themselves and their work. And some of them are quite good at it.

But that's a far different thing from the publisher expectation that an author will bring to the table, in addition to an excellent book, promotional and marketing skills.

Most authors, frankly, simply don't have those abilities. By and large, we tend to be introverted creatures who can exist happily without a whole lot of major social interaction. And, for most of us, the very idea of standing up in front of a group of people to speak and/or try to drum up sales is more likely to bring on hives than an eager smile.

If you're good at promotion and enjoy it, that's cool. Different strokes.

But all the unpublished writers out there sweating bullets because they lack a "platform" for their first novel? The novel is going to sell on its on merits, not on your ability to promote or market it.

Everything I know from being in this business for two decades tells me that.

IceCreamEmpress · Jul 1, 2008

Norman D Gutter said:
I have met Terry Whalin, took a continuing class of his at a conference, and pitched my novel to him, all when he was a fiction acquisitions editor and, now that he is an agent (he does not represent me), I stay in touch with him--trying to extend/maintain contacts in the industry. He is not poorly informed.

He's poorly informed on this topic, at least as it regards agents who represent mainstream fiction. Full stop. See the responses from the other people in the thread who, like myself, have published fiction with mainstream houses. Or don't listen to us: ask Miss Snark.

As you say, it seems like things in the CBA market may be different; that's not my market, so I can't comment on it.

CheshireCat, you pointed out a lacuna in my comment: what I meant to say was that first-time novelists don't write proposals for agents. Of course publishers want proposals later on, but even then the proposal is very different from a non-fiction book proposal (and, as you say, no "platform" required).

The Writing Life

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