POV questions

Hildegarde · Jun 17, 2008

Ok - I'm not sure where to post this so I will start here. I know there are some (ahem) POV sticklers on this thread. Please bump me someplace else as needed. I considered Grammar for Grasshoppers, but I think this is more a 'style' issue?

I have been participating in a crit loop. I am seeing a lot of crits from others on POV "slips" when there is a facial description etc of the person in whose POV we are supposed to be. Okay fine, no problem with the theory. You can't see your own face, so if we are in Bob's POV, Bob can't know that Sally's handprint stood out starkly on his white face.

BUT - here are some other examples - please give me some input on whether these are really POV slips (assume we are always in the POV of the person doing the action):

She narrowed her eyes at him.
I can feel my eyes narrow. Must I say instead "she felt her eyes narrow"? That's not what I mean. It is a deliberate action, not an acknowledgement of an involuntary action.

His jaw tightened.
Once again, I can feel this when I tighten my own jaw. I don't have to see it to know it has occurred.

She blushed in embarrassment.
Yeah - fair-skinned over here and I blush easily - I know when I'm red!

Obviously, some of these could easily be re-worded (She felt the blood rush to her face), but if I were doing the crit, I wouldn't point out the above examples as "slips" because they don't knock me out of the POV.

I'm sure there are lots of other common ones I can't bring to mind right now.

Thoughts?

Khazarkhum · Jun 17, 2008

Nothing you have here even remotely qualifies as a POV slip.

Deb Kinnard · Jun 18, 2008

The only one that comes close is the one about blushing. I can't always feel myself blush, and strict POV sticklers say, if your character can't appreciate with her five senses, it's POV violation.

Now--some people can feel themselves blushing all the time. I used that by simply throwing it in ("She felt her cheeks warm, cursing her fair complexion that colored up far too easily") or something like that. Your character knows the tendency and it's simply kicking in again.

The "narrowing eyes" thing etc. are not POV violations. Someone has misinformed your crit partners.

One thing you didn't cite, that makes me grind my teeth (I can feel this, so it's okay) is when romance novels say things like, "She ran her hands through her long and unruly russet hair." Garrgh! Now, I think all the time that my hair is unruly, but I rarely think about its length or its color. I'm sorta used to those...POV violation in those novels, IMO.

You're on the right track.

veinglory · Jun 18, 2008

I think these are fine but they could be more clearly in a POV. You might feel you cheek prickle or heat up and be afraid you are blushing, and rather than deliberately 'narrowing eyes' one is normally glaring or peering. Two of these feel vaguely omniscient.

Ms. Jem · Jun 18, 2008

Deb Kinnard said:
"She ran her hands through her long and unruly russet hair."

I agree; strict POV violation. Unless she's vain and totally infatuated with herself.

jennontheisland · Jun 18, 2008

All of those seem fine to me. The only one that stands out is the blush. But I think it's hitting me as 'telling' rather than as a POV thing.

Gillhoughly · Jun 18, 2008

As your possible future editor I'm not finding anything to set off my viewpoint shift buttons.

Crit partners are valuable, but in some cases it can be the blind leading the blind. Some will leap on what they see as a flaw then ride it into the ground, 'cause, dang, they wanna WIN!

I'm the senior member of a group and have had my chops busted by people who have not published so much as a letter to the editor in the local rag. Some of them, frankly, are just not smart enough or well read enough to know what I'm doing.

I know they want to help, but I weigh much of their comments against my own experience and common sense and reading history.

I find the best crit partners are insatiable readers of all genres.

Hildegarde · Jun 18, 2008

Thanks everyone - and thanks Gillhoughly - I was hoping you would chime in!

I think I am probably the blind leading the blind! The rules of the loop I joined are that you must crit two chapters for someone else in order to submit one. I am trying to do enough crits while I am in revisions so that I can post all my chapters in succession later.

The system is a little hit and miss, since anyone can participate, but I am learning a lot by doing it (among other things, as a reader I totally disagree with some of the other critters).

BTW - Gillhoughly - I am thinking of you daily as I revise my first chapter to eliminate excessive POV switches (yes, deliberate switches, not slips). Oh, the pain. The rest of the book flowed pretty well with only one switch per chapter, but #1 came to me jumbled up from both perspectives.

~H

Deb Kinnard · Jun 18, 2008

In open crit environments, sometimes it's best to take all your notes home and look at them later in private. In my RWA chapter, where some of the critters are at my level, some multi-pubbed, and some working on the same WIP for the last 15 years and will never send it anywhere...I nod a lot, make notes, then take what works for me and flush the rest.

That's the rule my editor gave me, anyway, and I find over 23 full or partial MSs, it works for me: "If anything I say goes *clunk* in your heart/mind/spirit, forget it & move on." Smart lady, that editor.

JanDarby · Jun 18, 2008

I'm emphatically a POV purist, but none of those examples bother me, although the blushing thing comes close.

The examples sound to me like people who don't REALLY understand the tool of POV, but are parroting what they've been told.

Alternatively -- and this is worth checking -- it could be that your POV is distant, and they're picking up on that, and zeroing in on the only examples (albeit wrong ones) they can find. If the pov is deep and consistent, a marginal pov violation is often skimmed over, but when that deep bond is missing, it can make the marginal pov violations more annoying.

But mostly, it just sounds like they're focusing on the restrictions (what cannot be done) in pov usage, rather than the immense possibilities (what can be done) with pov, like the word choices a character makes and the things that the character notices and the worldview of the character, that are reflective of a deep immersion into the character, far beyond a technical application of "what the character can sense in the story now."

JD

StoryG27 · Jun 18, 2008

Hildegarde said:
She narrowed her eyes at him.
I can feel my eyes narrow. Must I say instead "she felt her eyes narrow"? That's not what I mean. It is a deliberate action, not an acknowledgement of an involuntary action.

His jaw tightened.
Once again, I can feel this when I tighten my own jaw. I don't have to see it to know it has occurred.

She blushed in embarrassment.
Yeah - fair-skinned over here and I blush easily - I know when I'm red!

Obviously, some of these could easily be re-worded (She felt the blood rush to her face), but if I were doing the crit, I wouldn't point out the above examples as "slips" because they don't knock me out of the POV.

I'm sure there are lots of other common ones I can't bring to mind right now.

Thoughts?

The blushing one, yeah, might be getting close. The rest aren't breaking the POV "rule" but probably aren't what I'd expect to get in the POV either. For example, I might expect to read: "He clinched his teeth." rather than "His jaw tightened." But if I was doing the actual crit, I wouldn't say these were POV slips.

dragonjax · Jun 18, 2008

Agreed with the others: these are fine. I'm OK with the blush, too; God knows I can feel myself blush. But as others have already pointed out, you can describe the blush in other ways, especially through the rush of heat.

jennontheisland · Jun 18, 2008

storygirl said:
The blushing one, yeah, might be getting close. The rest aren't breaking the POV "rule" but probably aren't what I'd expect to get in the POV either. For example, I might expect to read: "He clinched his teeth." rather than "His jaw tightened." But if I was doing the actual crit, I wouldn't say these were POV slips.

Hm, okay, not a POV thing, but is "His jaw tightened" an autonomous body part? (a la the Eyes thread)

dragonjax · Jun 19, 2008

It's not so much that it's an autonomous body part. The narrator -- third-person, either close or omniscient -- is pointing it out. You can observe someone's jaw tightening. It's along the lines of "Her nostrils flared" or "Her eyes widened."

jennontheisland · Jun 19, 2008

Okay. Thanks.

But then why do people get all up in arms when eyes rake over someone, or follow him across the room?

veinglory · Jun 19, 2008

I think it is because jays can literally tightened, eyes can't literal fall on things or follow people. We no longer read those sorts of descriptions as figurative.

dragonjax · Jun 19, 2008

jennontheisland said:
But then why do people get all up in arms when eyes rake over someone, or follow him across the room?

Eyes can't, but a gaze can.

Hildegarde · Jun 19, 2008

These are actually comments I've seen on other people's work. I was just wondering if it was my "mistake" that I didn't bust the same phrases. God knows my own POV needs work, too. Nice to know I was "right" about these.

And yeah - the open critting is a mixed bag. One of the greatest things I've gotten out of it so far - seeing the totally opposite responses of different people to the same piece. No, you can NOT please all of the people all of the time!

Khazarkhum · Jun 19, 2008

About the only useful thing you'll get out of a creative writing class at most schools is the disparate reactions. Things you thought went over well die; what you thought fascinating doesn't fascinate anyone else; and so on. If you're lucky, the instructor is a writer; if you get a failed wannabe, look out.

For me the strangest experience was entering an RWA contest. I split the judges completely--I either got their highest scores or their lowest. No middle ground. :Huh:

Hildegarde · Jun 20, 2008

Khazarkhum said:
For me the strangest experience was entering an RWA contest. I split the judges completely--I either got their highest scores or their lowest. No middle ground.

Hey, at least you provoked a reaction!

POV questions

Hildegarde

A newb in the fog

Khazarkhum

Deb Kinnard

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Ms. Jem

Love, Lust and Ghosts

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Hildegarde

A newb in the fog

Deb Kinnard

JanDarby

StoryG27

Miss Behave

dragonjax

I write stuff and break boards.

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

dragonjax

I write stuff and break boards.

jennontheisland

the world is at my command

veinglory

volitare nequeo

dragonjax

I write stuff and break boards.

Hildegarde

A newb in the fog

Khazarkhum

Hildegarde

A newb in the fog