Which is more important...good plot, or good writing?

Feathers · Jun 14, 2008

I was reading this post on Lit agent Rachelle Gardner's blog where the answered commenters' questions. One went like this:

Do you think agents are more likely to take on work that has a great plot with writing that needs work, or great writing with a plot that needs work?

Rachelle replied, The latter. I can easily help a good writer improve their plot. But teaching an average writer to be a good writer is not my job. I don't represent plots, I represent writers.

Wow. I don't know if this is surprising to any of you guys but it really struck something in me. On one hand, it's encouraging because I'm struggling with plot but have been told I have solid writing. On the other hand, I'm bothered, because I never really thought there was a choice. But now I have to agree with Rachelle. Good writing is essentially a good writer.

So I ask: who agrees, who disagrees, and why? How do you think this statement effects our chances of publication?

-Feathers

patrick bateman · Jun 14, 2008

In screenwriting it's very common for a script to sell if the plot is great and the writing is so so because they can always hire someone to rewrite it. It's the plot they're buying after all.

But with novels, I think it's the opposite because you see so many novels that are same old same old and all they have going for them is that they're written well.

Though I'm off the mind that I'd rather my novels have both - a good plot AND good writing. I don't see why some would think it's okay to be good at one and suck at the other.

catethegreat · Jun 14, 2008

Good plotting and good writing are equally important in fiction. However, I do agree that it is easier to teach someone to plot better than to teach someone to write well. Much, much easier.

RJK · Jun 14, 2008

You could have the most intriguing story every told, but if it is poorly written, readers will throw the book across the room.

A well written story about nothing is just that. Who cares. The telephone book is grammatically correct but you don't see too many people curling up with one next to a fire with a cup of their favorite beverage, do you.

Rachelle Gardner meant that she could work with a person who has the requisite skills, to help them refine and develop their plot. Without writing skills, the plot isn't going anywhere.

When it comes to the sale of a novel, both are needed. So long as one isn't absent or so weak as to be nearly absent, either one can be stronger than the other.

Kalyke · Jun 14, 2008

I think that many best sellers are written with mundane, work-man like prose that is no better or worse than the average high school essay style. You don't need to be an "artist" to write. Certainly it is better if you have a decent command of language, but it is not essential. Small three and four letter words can tell a story well. But to come up with a captivating story that hits all the marks is the real art (especially with the complication of a limited vocabulary). The basic unit of a novel is not "words" as it might be in poetry. A good story is a good story, whether it is told with "good writing" or average writing. Even a bad writer can have a friend or editor revise the specific "language." Telling the story does not need to include the fireworks of a handsome vocabulary, or even sense with verbs and so on. That is what copy editors are for. I'm saying this with the viewpoint that you can have a good story teller tell a story without the use of words at all, or in a foreign language that you can't even understand, and you will understand the story.

HeronW · Jun 14, 2008

If you're a good writer you would know about silly things like plot, character developement, keeping the drama going, etc.

If you just sell a plot--it won't work with poor spelling, bad grammar, 2d characters, cliches, etc.

Shweta · Jun 14, 2008

My limited experience: while I was worried about writing only and not plot I couldn't sell a damn thing. Now that I am working on both, and how they play into one another, I'm actually selling a few pieces.

On the other hand, IMO life's too short to waste on bad writing. So that's lost me as a reader immediately, whereas I might keep reading a plotless piece of good writing. I may not enjoy it, but I'd keep reading.

So yeah, I'm in the "both" camp

BlueLucario · Jun 14, 2008

Are you kddin me? Agents want plot, not good writing. You can have the best writing in the world and your plot still sucks.

Prozyan · Jun 14, 2008

Poor writing skills will cripple you beyond hope in this profession.

Most agents, given two pieces of work, one with a glaring plot hole but superb writing, the other with a great concept but written by what appears to be a 4 year old, will choose to fix the glaring plot hole rather than waste time trying to teach someone basic writing skills.

Your idea or plot may be the best ever conceived, but if you cannot convey it effectively with words, it will never see the light of day.

Buddikins · Jun 14, 2008

I voted for 'good writing is chief'.
I keep thinking of Shakespeare... I mean, he stole most of his plots, didnt he? And where is he today (apart from dead...)
It was his writing that made his stories, rather than the plots.
You can't be a writer and write like crap. It just doesn't work.
Of course, I like the things I read to have both an interesting plot and good prose, but I'd choose the book with good writing as my favourite, or something worth reading again.

Bayley · Jun 15, 2008

Most of the plots we see in books today are remakes of plots that have been done to death, with a couple of changes. There are very rarely new ideas.

However, if the plot is good (obviously if the plot is terrible the book won't sell), but has been done before, yet the writing is beautiful and the best of this century, the book will sell in massive quantaties.

However, if the writing is only adequate, but the plot is superb, it won't be leaping off the book shelves. If there is nothing that holds the reader (Good charaterisation, description,etc) and there is only the plot, it'll probably be put down by page two.

So, while both are important, I do personally believe the writing is chief.

sunandshadow · Jun 15, 2008

catethegreat said:
...it is easier to teach someone to plot better than to teach someone to write well.

How would you teach someone (for example me lol) to plot better?

kristie911 · Jun 15, 2008

I can't read poorly written but I'd rather read mediocre writing with a superb plot than excellent writing with so-so plot.

It's the plot that sucks me in...not generally the writing. Maybe that's why I like books that most writers hate i.e. James Patterson and even The DaVinci Code.

a_sharp · Jun 15, 2008

My vote was for equally important, but look at the response from a real agent (Rachel). I'd take her word over my unqualified opinion any day. Writing trumps plot. I'll keep that one in mind.

Angela_785 · Jun 15, 2008

In an ideal world, I'm sure agents like to find both a great plot and great writing, but I believe overall it is great writing that gets noticed. If the plot is thin, it's easy to make suggestions to improve, and the agent will know the writer has the skill to make the changes work. A great plot and weak writing...much harder. Agents have only so much time and energy, and it seems that less and less agents are willing to be editorial.

HOWEVER, I think if an exceptional plot line crossed an agent's desk, something extremely different from what's out there, the agent would likely put in the effort needed to improve the writing and create a salable product.

SPMiller · Jun 15, 2008

We have these threads fairly often. I know I've seen at least two just like this.

But to me, it's clear that the ability to create a good plot is impossible to teach. Nobody can show you how to magically start coming up with good ideas. Someone might teach you how to put your ideas together into a logically coherent fashion, but if you can't generate them in the first place, you're hopeless.

However, almost anyone can be taught to write acceptable, readable prose.

Marian Perera · Jun 15, 2008

Three of the rejections I've got from editors for a manuscript say the same thing : "Plot needs work, but writing is good, so if you have another manuscript, I'll take a look."

I think I see why they value the writing more. Writing skill is something that isn't limited to one book, so even if a writer messes up with one manuscript, they may do well with the next. And as Rachelle said, it's probably easier to correct a flawed plot than to teach someone better writing skills.

It reminds me of the first Superman movie, when there was some debate about whether to hire Christopher Reeves for the lead role, since he wasn't as muscular as Superman is supposed to be. In the end, they decided it was easier to bulk up an actor than to teach a bodybuilder how to act.

triceretops · Jun 15, 2008

After being complimented on dazzling writing for 20 years, I've found that it's gotten me exactly nothing as far as the major sales that I wanted. First and foremost of importance for me now is a great story idea/concept/premise, followed by an intricate well-structured plot that has red herrings and twists, followed by the writing. I believe it was Nathan B. who said that he would likely take on a very hot premise with mediocre writing, rather than the other way around. I'm really convinced of this now. I don't know about anybody else, but I've been seeing dozens of rejection comments from the NY houses along the lines of:

Didn't quite push the genre
Not so different from what I've seen.
Would not compete favorably in the crowded market
The idea was too familiar
Wouldn't work in this competitive field
I've seen this before
Not different enough
Did stand out enough to grab me

But...I will say that I voted for both, and we should also strive in that direction.

Tri

Write4U2 · Jun 15, 2008

Look at this from the reader's standpoint. Say, you're bored at bedtiime, and not sleepy enough to drift off. You pick up a murder mystery book someone gave to you that's been gathering dust on your shelf, and think, Oh, here's this novel printed by a house I'm hoping to interest in my manuscript! So, you snuggle down, crack it open and begin to read.

Jay-sus, you think, what awful prose. Gawd, how did they...WHY did they publish this? Maybe it'll get better, you think, and keep on reading for a few more pages. The writing's so bad; so bad, you think. Then you go into analysis mode. Read the last few pages to see who is left standing. Check out the length; really short, you think. You go through the book and look for style, how did the writer use language? Yeah, really informal, you say. Nothing clever, nothing memorable. Just looking it over, you can see it's a typical hackneyed murder plot.

You close the book and throw it into a chair across the room, turn off the light and try to sleep. Your mind travels back to your own manuscript; I wonder how readers will see my writing; my plot. you finally drift off.

The writing or the plot? If the writing doesn't grab the reader, they'll never get to the plot.

maestrowork · Jun 15, 2008

BlueLucario said:
Are you kddin me? Agents want plot, not good writing. You can have the best writing in the world and your plot still sucks.

Are you an agent?

Actually it depends. I think agents look for good plot AND good writing. There are so many good plots out there but many people can't pull it off because they don't know how to write. Even Dan Brown, as much as people criticize him for being a bad writer, actually is doing something well with his writing, good enough to be published. And there are certainly agents and writers who prefer good writing (literary fiction, for example) than plot.

I don't buy books on plot alone. I need to read a few pages to see if the writing is up to par. If not, I put the book back. I personally would prefer great writing with a simple plot. That said, I can't read books without any plot (or bad plot) either. I need to know why I'm reading the STORY instead of just beautiful words. I read poetry for that.

It all comes down to balance.

A well-developed plot with great writing is a wonderful find.

ChaosTitan · Jun 15, 2008

Feathers said:
I was reading this post on Lit agent Rachelle Gardner's blog where the answered commenters' questions. One went like this:

Do you think agents are more likely to take on work that has a great plot with writing that needs work, or great writing with a plot that needs work?

Rachelle replied, The latter. I can easily help a good writer improve their plot. But teaching an average writer to be a good writer is not my job. I don't represent plots, I represent writers.

BlueLucario said:
Are you kddin me? Agents want plot, not good writing. You can have the best writing in the world and your plot still sucks.

Blue, your statement completely contradicts the quote in Feathers' OP, from a literary agent who clearly states she is looking for good writing over good plot. You may want to refrain from making blanket statements like this without anything to back it up.

sunandshadow said:
How would you teach someone (for example me lol) to plot better?

Yes, I would. I love brainstorming with writer friends about their plots. But I'm not claiming to be a plotting expert. Far from it.

I agree with Gardner and others, that it is easier to teach good plotting than it is to teach someone how to write well. Can everyone be a great writer and a great plotter? No, we see examples of it all the time in published fiction. But if it came down to picking one or the other, I'd say go with good writing.

Like Tri, though, I voted for both. Both gives you your best chance.

Queen of Swords said:
Three of the rejections I've got from editors for a manuscript say the same thing : "Plot needs work, but writing is good, so if you have another manuscript, I'll take a look."

Ditto.

In my own agent hunt experience, I got many rejections along the lines of "great writing, the story wasn't for me." I finally had the luck to find an agent who, like Rachelle Gardner, loved the writing enough that he was willing to work with me on the plot weaknesses.

maestrowork · Jun 15, 2008

ChaosTitan said:
In my own agent hunt experience, I got many rejections along the lines of "great writing, the story wasn't for me." I finally had the luck to find an agent who, like Rachelle Gardner, loved the writing enough that he was willing to work with me on the plot weaknesses.

Wait. I think it's dangerous for people to think just because an agent rejects a piece of work it means it's no good. If they say, "It's good writing but the story's not for me" it just means that -- they're looking for something else. Maybe genre, a different type of story. You're selling them oranges when they're looking for apples. It doesn't mean oranges are no good. You just need to find an agent who is looking for your kind of story.

Now if the agent says "it's a good story but your plot needs work" then it's a different matter.

ChaosTitan · Jun 15, 2008

maestrowork said:
Wait. I think it's dangerous for people to think just because an agent rejects a piece of work it means it's no good. If they say, "It's good writing but the story's not for me" it just means that -- they're looking for something else. Maybe genre, a different type of story. You're selling them oranges when they're looking for apples. It doesn't mean oranges are no good. You just need to find an agent who is looking for your kind of story.

I certainly never thought any of the rejections meant the story wasn't good. I understood it to mean exactly what you said: not for me = not for me, but it could be for someone else. It's said time and again, but it's a subjective business. We aren't disagreeing.

Now if the agent says "it's a good story but your plot needs work" then it's a different matter.

Not necessarily a different matter, because "plot needs work" is still as subjective an opinion as "story isn't for me." Another agent could have come along who loved the book as-is, plot intact. I won't know.

In the end, though, my point was that in my experience, agents seem more inclined to go with good writing, if the plot can be fixed.

MumblingSage · Jun 15, 2008

Since what people like plot-wise is so subjective, I say good writing is more important. However, I came close to saying 'tie', because a story does need to be well-plotted and cohesive to keep my interest.

Write4U2 · Jun 15, 2008

maestrowork said:
Wait. I think it's dangerous for people to think just because an agent rejects a piece of work it means it's no good. If they say, "It's good writing but the story's not for me" it just means that -- they're looking for something else. Maybe genre, a different type of story. You're selling them oranges when they're looking for apples. It doesn't mean oranges are no good. You just need to find an agent who is looking for your kind of story.

Now if the agent says "it's a good story but your plot needs work" then it's a different matter.

Absolutely, and that's why it's important to know what kind of work an agent handles before you even approach.

You also need to be very clear in your mind into what genre your story fits. Sometimes a story can be romance with some suspense or murder involved, and it's hard to say, this is this or that!

Which is more important...good plot, or good writing?

What's your opinion?

I agree - good writing is chief

I disagree - good writing is important, but not as much as plot

I think good writing and plot are equally important and arguing about it is silly

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