what should I do?

Honalo · Jun 9, 2008

I'm in the midst of writing a fantasy novel, which is why I'm posting this question here:

This novel is turning into something of epic proportions and promises to close in on 200,000 words before it's finished. Last night I came to the realization that I have to split it into 2 books for it to be more marketable - or should I?

As of now, I'm real close to completing what would comprise book one. Should I go ahead and write the whole bloody thing, 200,000-plus words of it, submit it and hope an agent will wade through it and offer a suggestion on how to split it (or keep it whole, perhaps)?? --

OR, should I go with my gut, end book one at a much more digestable 110,000-120,000 words and submit it as being book one of a series? This also means coming up with a new title, since my current title is more applicable to what would now be the second book, and bringing this new first book to a semi-conclusion.

Your thoughts would be appreciated!!

Dommo · Jun 9, 2008

From the length of the books that tend to see in a bookstore I'd recommend breaking up the book. Although I personally love long books, the truth is that until you're an established author in a particular genre, you're going to probably have to break up your epic.

Go with your gut.

Toothpaste · Jun 9, 2008

If you can break it down to a smaller work, then do it. And don't worry too much about the title thing, titles tend to change anyway. Thing is, you'll read over and over again that agents don't really want a work longer than 120 000 words. That is the utmost top end. If you submit something longer, you are already setting the odds against you. You are also saying "My work is so amazing that I can totally break the rules!" While there is nothing wrong with saying that, your work had better truly be that amazing.

JimmyB27 · Jun 9, 2008

Finish it, then decide. You may find in the editing that there is a lot of fat to trim.

Smiling Ted · Jun 9, 2008

Are you already a published fantasist? If not, ask yourself - seriously and honestly - whether your book truly needs to be that long to tell your story.

Booksellers don't want books that long. It cuts into the number of books they can sell.
Publishers don't want books that long. It cuts down the likelihood of a sale to booksellers.
Agents don't want books that long. It cuts down the likelihood of a sale to publishers.

And needless length is the besetting sin of the slushpile fantasy novel.

Submitting a 200,000-word MS suggest that you don't know (or care) about these facts, and that you are unable to edit your own work. Whether or not that's true, it's not the impression you want to leave with agents and editors.

Honalo · Jun 9, 2008

Thanks you all.
No, I'm not published and yes, there's some trimming that is absolutely essential in weeding out backstory - but it won't be enough to knock out 80,000-90,000 words and also, there's just too much going on in this book to keep it to one book - the reader will be exhausted by it all halfway through.

So here's what I'm thinking for a title. The original title is Island of the Beast. I think I'd still like to keep that title and stretch it over both books because it's applicable to both.

So what about:

(in small print) Chronicles of the House of Impuror (the chronicles span several volumes and relate the history of the Impuror royal family, sort of like the House of Windsor)
Chapter 17: Island of the Beast
Book One: Seeker of the Crown

or is that too cumbersome?

waylander · Jun 9, 2008

What I've heard from my agent recently (and I'm a fantasy writer) is that it is hard to sell series. Each book should work on its own, with a complete story arc and the possibility of follow-on books.

badducky · Jun 9, 2008

Mela said:
it won't be enough to knock out 80,000-90,000 words

That is incorrect, madame.

I promise.

If my editor told me, "I need 80,000 more words", or "I need 80,000 less words", my answer is "You got it!"

Whenever you think you're done with your story, actively try to edit it in half.

Honalo · Jun 9, 2008

Hmmm ... then maybe I should take this puppy through to the end after all and then, as badducky pointed out, chop it in half.
It is supposed to be one book and yes, waylander, I've heard also that each book should stand on its own - although I was under the impression that series books are still acceptable.
You know I've just solved my own dilemma - I think I have no choice but to finish it through and then go back and edit. If I cut it into 2 books now I think I'll lose something along the way - rethinking it, there's no way I can make a plausible book one out of it.
I guess there was (is) a part of me that didn't want to go the whole way with it just because there's so MUCH in it - it just seemed a little overwhelming. Breaking it up appeared a lot easier.

So, in a roundabout way I've solved my own problem - but thanks a lot everyone for listening.

ChaosTitan · Jun 9, 2008

Mela said:
It is supposed to be one book and yes, waylander, I've heard also that each book should stand on its own - although I was under the impression that series books are still acceptable.

Series books are often standalone, although that does, in some respects, depend on subgenre. Some high fantasy series need to be read in order so they can be properly understood. Other series, particularly in urban fantasy, each book can be read separate from the rest without losing the reader. This is how my agent plans to pitch my UF novel, and I love the idea.

Open-ended series that are not standalone are high-risk. If readers aren't reading and the editor stops buying your books, you run the risk of leaving your fans without a proper ending. Standalone, even in a series, alleviates much of that risk. It's also easier to pick up new readers mid-series.

scottVee · Jun 9, 2008

If you write the whole thing and the first half is a great stand-alone story, and you manage to sell it, you've already made the sequel a whole lot easier on yourself. ;-)

Seriously, though, the optimum package is an 80,000-90,000 word story nobody can put down. It could give you one or two more books ready to write while you're selling the first one.

Dave.C.Robinson · Jun 10, 2008

You've already taken the first and most important piece of advice: Finish it.

As to series, the rules are somewhat different for new writers than for those with an already established audience.

For a new writer both publishers and booksellers want to minimize their initial risk. All unpublished writers are pretty much the same to them, so if they have one writer with a standalone and another with a series they're going to be more likely to put their money on the writer with a standalone.

The best thing for a new writer to do is write each book as a standalone with the potential of a series. That way if they want a series you can write the sequel, but if they don't you haven't alienated any potential fan base by giving them an incomplete story.

As to length, once you have the story done you may find ways to shorten it; though with 80-90k in mind it may be through eliminating sub-plots.

walker206 · Jun 10, 2008

Ah, the series dilemma...

The more I read about the industry, the more I realize that there are simply no concrete rules. Whether it's about length, stand-alone series volumes, genre issues, etc, there seem to always be exceptions to the rule.

With that in mind, I have chosen to just relax, keep plugging away, and believe in my work. That said, my new novel is the first in a series. I don't think it could be considered "stand-alone" in the sense that it definitely leaves some things open, but, to be honest, that's fine with me, and is what I want given the story. If anything, the way the first book ends will almost guarantee that the reader will buy the next book (if they liked the first one). Now, that wasn't my main motivation, but it seems to me that that's something an agent and/or editor would actually welcome. (I know--new author, risk, risk, risk. I get it. I'm not ignorant of the considerations involved.) With only stand-alone volumes, there's the "risk" that the story won't appeal to regular readers, all sorts of things that might hinder its sales potential.

When it comes to fantasy, the series has always been common. And many, if not most, of them invite the reader to start at the beginning by the nature of it being a series. I know that's what I always did as a kid when I stumbled upon a new (to me) author. Now, while I can sort of see the "risk" in this, there is the other side of the coin, which is that if someone wants to read your work, they're going to buy more books in order to catch up. Which, again, as a fantasy reader, I actually really like. Who's going to pick up the second volume of George RR Martin's series instead of starting with the first? A series is a series.

So, I know that a lot of you will disagree with me on this, but that's okay. As I said before, there will always be exceptions to whatever "rule" is currently leading the day. Viva la difference!

Dave.C.Robinson · Jun 10, 2008

walker206 said:
Ah, the series dilemma...

The more I read about the industry, the more I realize that there are simply no concrete rules. Whether it's about length, stand-alone series volumes, genre issues, etc, there seem to always be exceptions to the rule.

With that in mind, I have chosen to just relax, keep plugging away, and believe in my work. That said, my new novel is the first in a series. I don't think it could be considered "stand-alone" in the sense that it definitely leaves some things open, but, to be honest, that's fine with me, and is what I want given the story. If anything, the way the first book ends will almost guarantee that the reader will buy the next book (if they liked the first one). Now, that wasn't my main motivation, but it seems to me that that's something an agent and/or editor would actually welcome. (I know--new author, risk, risk, risk. I get it. I'm not ignorant of the considerations involved.) With only stand-alone volumes, there's the "risk" that the story won't appeal to regular readers, all sorts of things that might hinder its sales potential.

When it comes to fantasy, the series has always been common. And many, if not most, of them invite the reader to start at the beginning by the nature of it being a series. I know that's what I always did as a kid when I stumbled upon a new (to me) author. Now, while I can sort of see the "risk" in this, there is the other side of the coin, which is that if someone wants to read your work, they're going to buy more books in order to catch up. Which, again, as a fantasy reader, I actually really like. Who's going to pick up the second volume of George RR Martin's series instead of starting with the first? A series is a series.

So, I know that a lot of you will disagree with me on this, but that's okay. As I said before, there will always be exceptions to whatever "rule" is currently leading the day. Viva la difference!

You're right, what most people here are on about are more "best practices" than concrete rules, and yes, many can be broken.

The ones that can't are: you must excite an agent (or publisher) enough with your work to get a contract; and you must not make the reader feel ripped off.

A book that closes off the story and leaves enough open for a sequel is fine. A book that requires a sequel is much less likely to get picked up.

Again, it's all chances, not guarantees-- but the harder one makes it the less likely things become.

Smiling Ted · Jun 10, 2008

A series of non-standalone books (as opposed to something like, say the Dresden Files) is more of a commitment - for the publisher and for the agent.
No publisher will buy just one book of that series. So by writing it, you're demanding that they buy not one book from you, but two or more...and with no guarantee that you'll be able to maintain your quality, your sales or your deadlines.
That's a deal an established author can make more easily than a newbie.

badducky · Jun 10, 2008

The worry should not be, "Gosh, I hear series are hard to sell!"

The worry should be, "Gosh, I hope my series is well-written, and gripping, and beautiful enough to sell!"

Quality sells whether it is a 40,001 word novel, or a 340,000 word novel, or a twelve book series.

Focus on the quality. Just the quality.

Dave.C.Robinson · Jun 10, 2008

badducky said:
The worry should not be, "Gosh, I hear series are hard to sell!"

The worry should be, "Gosh, I hope my series is well-written, and gripping, and beautiful enough to sell!"

Quality sells whether it is a 40,001 word novel, or a 340,000 word novel, or a twelve book series.

Focus on the quality. Just the quality.

The truth is if it excites an agent and then an editor it will get published.

So yes, you don't have to follow the rules, provided you can write well enough. That's always been a given. Having said that, the rules are looser for an established writer than a newcomer. First novels are also rarely an author's best work.

So it doesn't make sense to stack the deck against yourself. Yes, you can write anything and if it's good enough it will sell. However, the first project you should try to sell is the most saleable. You don't have to sell things in the order you write them.

badducky · Jun 11, 2008

As far as first novels go, a local author around these here Taxes parts named A. Lee Martinez recently published "The Automatic Detective". It's his fourth(? Fifth?) published novel.

It was the first novel he wrote.

Focus on the quality. Writing extremely well repeatedly over time works.

Nateskate · Jun 11, 2008

If it's a good story, well-written, you're definitely going to be better off making it into two books.

However, you will have to make sure that book one can stand alone, which may require writing an ending that doesn't exist. And then you have to open book two at a logical place- so people who pick it up can follow.

what should I do?

Honalo

Dommo

On Mac's double secret probation.

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

Honalo

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Honalo

ChaosTitan

Around

scottVee

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

walker206

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

badducky

No Time For Chitchat, Kemosabe.

Nateskate