It's Not Just Entertainment (defining "art" / what's acceptable vs. unacceptable)

DrRita

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In a Focus on the Family radio interview with Douglas Gresham (step-son of C.S. Lewis) about a month ago, he made one rather sound and sobering comment:

Douglas Gresham: "...but you see, we look in today's world, we look at our presidents, our prime ministers, our princes and our potentates and we describe them as our leaders, but they're not. They're merely our rulers. The leaders are the people who change the minds and stimulate the imaginations of the public, whether children or adults. That means the movie makers, the people who make TV shows, the entertainment people in the business. And that means, that if you're going to lead the world, as the movie people and the TV people do, you'd better choose very carefully in what direction you're going to lead."
 

ScriptGirl

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That's very interesting.

I know people in the business talk about this a lot, you know, choosing different paths.
Art vs. Fame/Money

I hope I don't "sell out" if I ever to make it.
 

NikeeGoddess

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this is a well known fact among anyone who looks at the bigger picture. hollywierd knows that are extremely influential. they move in three directions:
1 - i don't care. i'm not a role model. it's not my problem. i'm going to do what i want to do in the name of art.
2 - i care and therefore i will be as politically correct as i can.
3 - i'm going to do what sells... for the love of money.

it was the reason for the Hayes laws back in the early 30's. there are many flicks back then that had nudity. and it's the reason for the ratings system. and the reason why you rarely see someone drinking a beer or teens smoking on television. etc....

i recall a movie with steve martin as a filmmaker. he made violent, bloody, and slasher flicks. then one day he was carjacked and it crippled him for life. he vowed to change the kind of flicks he made to rid the world of violence. that lasted maybe one flick. then as the trauma from his attack faded he went back to what was making money the easy way.
 

zagoraz

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That sounds like typical Focus On The Family, extreme right wing, video games and hip hop is to blame for all of the violence in America progaganda. It's not up to those in the entertainment industry to be leaders, it's up to them to entertain. It's up to parents to raise their children, teach them right from wrong, and send them out in the world to make choices on their own. What a bunch of self-righteous dreck.
 

WriteKnight

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Well, considering how long it takes to get anything into the pipeline and produced, I think Hollywood is mostly REACTIONARY in terms of trends and MORES rather than a leader.

Seriously, by the time something is produced, its reflecting issues and trends. That's just part of the production dynamic. The commercial 'success' of the product - that is how 'well' it's recieved, is a reflection on how well the particular message is expressed, and RECIEVED initially.

So, blaming the entertainment industry for being 'trendsetters' - as much as they would like that - is probably a false lead. Most of the people I know in marketing spend a lot of time on 'the street' = listening to what people are already saying, looking at where they are headed ALREADY - hoping to tap into that.
 

DrRita

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That sounds like typical Focus On The Family, extreme right wing, video games and hip hop is to blame for all of the violence in America progaganda. It's not up to those in the entertainment industry to be leaders, it's up to them to entertain. It's up to parents to raise their children, teach them right from wrong, and send them out in the world to make choices on their own. What a bunch of self-righteous dreck.


Hello????? Focus didn't make the statement. CS Lewis' stepson did . . . anyone with any intelligence knows how influencial Hollywood is.
 

DrRita

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WriteKnight. I disagree. I believe that the ET industry is not naive nor that innocent. I don't think they have a "plan" perse but I do believe they are more knowledgeable than you give them credit.
 

WriteKnight

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I don't believe I called them 'naive' OR innocent. Far from it - they are astute and sharp business people who are constantly looking to tap into trends to make money. I am simply addressing the assumption that they 'lead' social trends, rather than reflect them. And I am speaking of the 'entertainment industry' in the sense of the Film and Television Entertainment producers - those who make movies and television series.

Now if you want to discuss the power of 'the media' to influence the public - them I'm certainly behind that. What passes for news and comment is appalling and certainly aimed at shaping public opinion - no doubt about it.

I'm old enough to remember when there were laws in Broadcasting that required the distinct seperation of opinion from "NEWS". It had to be labeled as commentary, and you had to give EQUAL TIME to the opposing viewpoint. I remember because I worked in Radio and Television in those days. Those laws were eliminated, and media has been consolidating into the hands of very few corporations, who answer to stockholders, not the 'public good'.
 

zagoraz

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Hello????? Focus didn't make the statement. CS Lewis' stepson did . . . anyone with any intelligence knows how influencial Hollywood is.

According to the OP, the interview aired on a Focus On The Family radio show. Are you suggesting FOTF is a non-biased, neutral entity that tells both sides of every story? Because I've always known them as a far right, uber religous, gay-hating bunch of bozos. Anyone that's ever read anything by James Dobson could tell you that.

As far as intelligence in Hollywood, I'd say that's an oxymoron.
 

DrRita

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According to the OP, the interview aired on a Focus On The Family radio show. Are you suggesting FOTF is a non-biased, neutral entity that tells both sides of every story? Because I've always known them as a far right, uber religous, gay-hating bunch of bozos. Anyone that's ever read anything by James Dobson could tell you that.

As far as intelligence in Hollywood, I'd say that's an oxymoron.

Hmmmmm is this the pot calling the kettle black? Sounds like you got a bit of "phobia" going on here.
 

DrRita

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They are hardly neutral and non-biased.

Focus on the Family's Mission Statement:

To cooperate with the Holy Spirit in sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with as many people as possible by nurturing and defending the God-ordained institution of the family and promoting biblical truths worldwide.

And? Everyone has an agenda and I'll be the first to admit that Christians do. But this whole thread is NOT ABOUT Christians or Focus on the Family.
 

Jon-Luke

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i recall a movie with steve martin as a filmmaker. he made violent, bloody, and slasher flicks. then one day he was carjacked and it crippled him for life. he vowed to change the kind of flicks he made to rid the world of violence. that lasted maybe one flick. then as the trauma from his attack faded he went back to what was making money the easy way.

GREAT FILM - It was called Grand Canyon and starred Danny Glover and Kevin Kline, written by Lawrence Kasdan and his wife Meg Kasdan (Lawrence also directed).

But this issue also reminds me of "Natural Born Killers" its scary to see how much of what that film warns us about society has ended up becoming especially if you look at the whole advent of reality TV which hardly existed when the film was made (Let alone when it was written - although I'm not sure how much these issues were included in Tarantino's Draft)
 

DrRita

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Great point Jon-Luke. I know we can't "blame" all our social ills on TV and Movies (music and video games too) but it makes one wonder as to how much impact these major influences have on the mind set of the upcoming generation? I think more than we even want to admit.
 

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Great point Jon-Luke. I know we can't "blame" all our social ills on TV and Movies (music and video games too) but it makes one wonder as to how much impact these major influences have on the mind set of the upcoming generation? I think more than we even want to admit.

I've heard that the youngest generation -- the generation that has no, or very few children now, say those up to about twenty-two -- cannot cope with the real world.

They get all the material things they want, either from parents or with credit cards, and they want far more than they need. In general, vast numbers of them cannot cope with college and the work world.

Perhaps TV, movies, music, and the internet have contributed to their intense wants, but who has spoiled them and let them have all the things they want? Who's fault is it?
 

nmstevens

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I've heard that the youngest generation -- the generation that has no, or very few children now, say those up to about twenty-two -- cannot cope with the real world.

They get all the material things they want, either from parents or with credit cards, and they want far more than they need. In general, vast numbers of them cannot cope with college and the work world.

Perhaps TV, movies, music, and the internet have contributed to their intense wants, but who has spoiled them and let them have all the things they want? Who's fault is it?


I think the point is -- it's not a zero sum game. The fact that a person who, say, commits a criminal act must accept the moral responsibility for committing that act doesn't mean that everyone else is let off the hook.

Nor, for that matter, if others accept responsibility -- if his parents were neglectful, if society ignored the problem, if the media fed him images of consequenceless violence -- that that somehow gets him off the hook.

Those that committed crimes at Abu Gharaib are responsible for what they did -- but that doesn't relieve their officers of their responsibility, nor the whole chain of command (that wasn't held responsible) for allowing those crimes to occur.

We find ourselves, as makers of art, in a tricky position.

Either we must claim that what we do has *no* influence on people -- either for good or for bad. That is, we're just devoting our lives to something that is trivial and meaningless.

Or else what we do *does* have an influence on people. It can inspire them, frighten them, enrage them, uplift them, excite them, move them.

Well, if art (including movies and TV) has that power -- then it has the power to influence people, both for better or for worse.

We know that movies have a tremendous effect on things like style -- but "style" isn't simply what people wear or how they comb their hair. It's also how people behave, how they treat one another. Present the idea and continually reinforce the idea that, say, conscienceless violence is cool and sexy it seems ingenuous to presume that this isn't going to be taken up by audiences that traditionally take their cues about what's cool and sexy from the motion picture screen.

Obviously, this isn't a straight-line cause and effect phenomenon. Not everyone who saw a James Dean movie went out and started acting like James Dean. But a lot of guys did. And sure, the iconic figure that James Dean portrayed didn't come out of smoke. That handful of characters emerged from a whole set of social concerns -- youth rebellion, motorcycle gangs, et al, that were in the air at the time.

But James Dean (and also Brando) crystallized those elements -- gave them a kind of life that they hadn't had before.

So yes, movies rarely "originate" anything - they tend to be fairly conservative in that respect. But their power in terms of taking something that is in the public mind and elevating it -- giving it a kind of scope and power of expression that it wouldn't otherwise have, is something that shouldn't be underestimated.

NMS
 

jonpiper

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So yes, movies rarely "originate" anything - they tend to be fairly conservative in that respect. But their power in terms of taking something that is in the public mind and elevating it -- giving it a kind of scope and power of expression that it wouldn't otherwise have, is something that shouldn't be underestimated.

NMS

Good point. Movies rarely originate anything, they mostly reinforce what's already happening in the public domain. The language and the visuals in many of today's movies are only an exaggeration of what is already occuring in society.

Very few movies lead us in a new direction. And I don't think we can blame films for dumbing down society or leading us to the devil. We can't blame the movies for being a reflection of what is happening in the world.
 

nmstevens

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Good point. Movies rarely originate anything, they mostly reinforce what's already happening in the public domain. The language and the visuals in many of today's movies are only an exaggeration of what is already occuring in society.

Very few movies lead us in a new direction. And I don't think we can blame films for dumbing down society or leading us to the devil. We can't blame the movies for being a reflection of what is happening in the world.

But that's really the question. Can't we?

The public may have an appetite for junk food. It may have an appetite for "green" food.

Both of those things, in a sense may be in the "public mind."

But if you're in the food business, you get to choose what kind of food you market.

And it may very well be that junk food sells better, but unless that's your only criterion for what you make and what you sell -- what sells better -- you don't get to walk away from the table with a clear conscience.

You want to make TV -- you can make "John Adams" or "Recount" -- or you can make the new "Flavo-Flav" show.

You can make "Sixty Minutes" or you can make "Jerry Springer."

Inevitably, the public will "vote" to support shows like "Jerry Springer" in the same way that the public will vote to support junk food -- and I have no doubt that those that make the Springer show have made a great deam of money making it.

But I think that we really kid ourselves if we try to say that this show and shows like it that celebrate and glorify human trashiness, haven't hurt this country. I think that they have.

And one can't blame the "market" for this. We as makers of movies and of television shows have to bear the responsibility for what we do. We can make trash because trash that celebrates the worst in human beings because that sells or we can make work that's good -- because good stuff also sells.

And I'm not advocating some polly-anna-ish "no sex/no violence" approach to movies or television. My position as somebody who's written a lot of horror is that art is about illumination and it's the dark corners of the human experience that are the ones that most need illuminating -- and that's the scary places that people aren't particularly comfortable looking at or thinking about.

Whatever people do -- and that includes sexual behavior and violent behavior -- is legitimate material for art and drama. But how any subject is treated determines how an audience is going to respond to it.

And if we're going to be grown up about it, we have to accept that if we put something on the screen that encourages bad behavior, that it might very well contribute to someone's bad behavior -- that if we put something stupidly imitatable on the screen that, indeed, someone stupid or irresponsible or mentally unbalanced may imitate it, with tragic results.

It's not as if we didn't know that our audience contains people who are stupid and irresponsible and mentally unbalanced. You have clear evidence of that every time you go to a movie theatre. So you know that they're going to be there in the audience.

So, yes -- you can show a movie with such images to an audience and the overwhelming majority won't imitate it, or won't be negatively effected in that way. In the same way, you can make a drug and you know that most people won't have an allergic reaction to it. But you pretty much know that, for any drug, a certain percentage of the people who receive it *will* have an allergic reaction -- and they'll get sick, and some of them will die.

And you put certain things in a movie, it may very well be that a certain number of unstable people will see it and imitate it -- and the result will be that people will die.

I don't think that we get to simple shrug and say, "Well, they're just nuts. Not our fault."

Didn't we know that that there were crazy people out there -- in the same way that people who make medicine know that there are people with allergies in the world?

They get to say -- hey, our medicine saves lives and that's an acceptable upside to the occasional death that it causes.

What do we say that the upside is to the art that we create, when the downside is that, every so often, somebody may imitate something that he sees on the screen -- and people are killed as a result?

And I'm not just taking aim at movies. News is the same. We always hear about "copycat" killers. But it isn't really the killings that copycat killers are imitating. It's the news coverage of those killings.

I"m sure that everybody remembers the "Tylenol" poisonings that were such huge news years back. That story just swept the country for months. And because it was such an enormous story, it triggered a number of imitation killings.

Again, the justification for the scale of the story was *not* the public interest, no matter what anybody might say -- it was market forces -- it was the public demand for the story.

Market forces drove the story to a scale vastly out of keeping with the actual scale of the danger involved from the actual killer and once it had achieved the kind of international dimension that it ultimately achieved, the "copycat" phenomenon took off.

It's the same thing with all of these school shootings. The enormous national well-oiled publicity machine that descends upon these events, the extent to which these shooters become, in effect, celebrities in their own right, I fully believe is part of what is driving this phenomenon.

It's very much in line with what you're saying. On one level, the news agencies are simply responding to the public's intense interest in these events.

But the result, I believe, is a kind of diabolical feedback loop, in which the media coverage quite literally drives the "school shooting" phenomenon itself, in which part of the appeal for many of these disaffected characters is the idea of having their "fifteen minutes of fame" with all of the networks and news choppers there for the eulogy.

NMS
 

WriteKnight

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Neal,

I'm in concurrence with a lot of what you wrote, but you bring up some seemingly contradictory points...

First you advocate that we as 'artists' and 'creators' are responsible -

And one can't blame the "market" for this. We as makers of movies and of television shows have to bear the responsibility for what we do.

And then you wrote:

Again, the justification for the scale of the story was *not* the public interest, no matter what anybody might say -- it was market forces -- it was the public demand for the story.

Market forces drove the story to a scale vastly out of keeping with the actual scale of the danger involved from the actual killer and once it had achieved the kind of international dimension that it ultimately achieved, the "copycat" phenomenon took off.

And so it would seem that market forces DO controll what gets aired. MARKET FORCES created the copycat killers.



Long ago, I was strolling through a flea market with a friend of mine. We came upon a shop selling HUGE garish paintings of Elvis done on black velvet. My friend asked "Why would anyone create this crap???"

"Because someone will buy it," was my obvious retort.

Your post points out that 'responsibility' lies with those who create the art - In our case writers - as well as those who 'buy' it - the audience. I'm in agreement that it is not a zero sum game. That there is plenty of responsibility to go around. Where does the 'bulk' of that responsibility lie?

The OP seems to think the responsibility is soley "Hollywoods"... for leading the public astray. Most of us seem to agree that 'hollywood' tends to 'follow' trends rather than create them. As you point out, Film/Television is a great megaphone or 'amplifier' of trends - with the power to spread an idea or philosophy much farther and faster than word-of-mouth.

But spead it would, nevertheless.

"Junk food" or "Health Food" - there is a market for both. Who's responsibility is it, to controll the public access to such junk? Yours? Mine? THE GATEKEEPERS? Those who 'greenlight' a project?

Untill very recently, the ability to create a two hour 'motion picture' was restricted to those with vast ammounts of money, and very specific skillsets. To a great degree, the decision to expend enormous ammounts of time/energy and money on a project was determined by the ability to recoup that expense. "Will it sell?"

Offering the public something it is not already buying is an ENORMOUS risk (Especially to those lacking creative 'vision') This is why Hollywood so seldom TAKES risks - its why it tends - for the most part - to follow trends rather than lead them. (Sequels anyone?)Sure, it amplifies those trends reflected in HUMAN NATURE - and there are people on the payroll out there, 'taking the pulse' of the youth on the street to see what the 'next hot thing' will be - meaning already is, in some areas.

But as you say its not a zero sum.

Its MARKET FORCES that are the heavier handed element, in my estimation. Everyone is responsible for what they do. Every parent is responsible for what they allow their child to watch. Every artist who must feed his family, is responsible for writing something that will pay the bills, AND be able to 'live' with himself for creating it.

Technology now allows every kid with a video camera to make two hour long 'movies'. The internet allows every budding Tarantino the ability to post his epic, where MILLIONS of people can see it! Think of that, no longer having to hang a sheet in the garage and invite a few friends - MILLIONS can see my creativity!!!

YouTube is a great example of what market forces 'crave'. They crave junk food. They crave the latest piece of gossip, the latest political 'gotcha', the latest extreme accident, the latest video of some crime caught on tape, they crave the most bizarre piece of tittillation available at any given moment.

So the question becomes - Is MARKET FORCES another term for HUMAN NATURE ? Is it the basest form of Human Nature to slow down, and look at the accident - causing others to get stuck in traffic?

I don't know. I don't write horror. I don't 'get' it. It doesn't appeal to me. I don't judge people who do it. (No, no slight to you - Good on you for your success, and I appreciate your posting and presence on the board). Heck, for that matter, I've made a great deal of money "REcreating" violence and death on the live stage. So there's gallons of Karo blood on my hands, for sure.

Again, the OP seems to want to 'blame' Hollywood, or the 'gatekeepers' for CREATING the junk food. Given the choice, will enough people BUY the health food?

I'm doing my best to write it. I'm hoping somebody will step up, and PRODUCE it.

That's MY choice.

But the GATEKEEPERS in our society, are the corporate media. The shareholders demand profit, the audience demands blood. I think I hear you say that we as 'artists' albeit located far far down on the 'production chain' are responsible for injecting some sort of 'moral' into our creativity - and hope it survives the production process.

WHO gave the public "Bread and Circuses" in ancient Rome, to keep them compliant? WHY did the public attend?

WHO gives the public "REALITY TV" and why do they watch it?

I can honestly say, I have never, ever watched a single episode of "Reality" television. Can't tell you how 'survivor' works, or what "big brother' or any of the other shows are about.

I 'vote' with my remote. I write with my concience. I guess that is all we can do, no?
 
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WriteKnight

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An afterthought to mine and NMS' posts.

It seems we have come to the conclusion that the responsibility is distributed between the AUDIENCE, the ARTISTS and THE GATEKEEPERS. The question then becomes who has the 'greater' responsibility?

It seems that "With great power, comes great responsibility".

So where does the greater power lie in this equation? Is it with the 'market forces', with 'the gatekeepers' ("hollywood") or with the "artists".

The question is complicated by the technology aspect. Easier for a novelist to be responsible for the content of his novel, than for a screenwriter to be responsible for the final product on the screen. Collaboratvie nature of moviemaking dillutes/reinforces exponentially - one persons vision.
 

DrRita

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In a small class setting, a few of us were able to have conversation with Bill Marselli (Deja Vue), who had the good fortune (along with co-writer [Redacted--JDM] ) to be a part making the decisions on what scenes/elements of the original script would/would be in the movie. Very few writers have this much control. My point in saying this is that WriteKnight makes a point . . .
he question is complicated by the technology aspect. Easier for a novelist to be responsible for the content of his novel, than for a screenwriter to be responsible for the final product on the screen. Collaboratvie nature of moviemaking dillutes/reinforces exponentially - one persons vision.
and I just wanted to agree with that.

As screenwriters we may have written a great script that has social value but when it gets into the hands of a producer who simply wants to make money, it can quickly become just another piece of Hollywood sausage. We don't have that kind of control. So again the point is made . . . the powers that be, shape what the masses see.

As for responsibility? I totally agree that the "blame" must be shared. It's a domino effect and it's very difficult if not impossible to identify the first domino. But having said that, marketing does play a huge role. Good movies are overlooked, not because they aren't good but because they aren't marketed well. But who pays for that marketing? The public? The writer? The director? The cinematographer? No the corporation (once called the studio) that has a bottom line, investors who want a return and an annual report to answer for. Big studios gobble up each other. WB just took on New Line . . . that's the way it goes. So money is the bottom line. When it comes to social responsibility, we all are to blame but as for the "greater responsibility?" I would vote that the studios hold that gem.
 
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WriteKnight

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Responsibility and Power.

Those seem to be the elements. Who has it? Who wants it? Who gets it?

I think 'the artist' - in our case writers - have very little 'power' in what shows up on screen... mostly as a result of the collaborative process of the technology.

My point was that until recently, the 'studios' are the gatekeepers - they controll the vertical, they control the horizontal - they control what 'gets made' -

BUT

They are rewarded by money. And the audience buys what they want.

The argument has been made (by the OP) that they (the studios) only sell a certain product, that they controll the audience's appetitite, by only offering junk food.

SO - to test that theory, remove the 'controls' of the technology.

That was my second point.

Make it possible for all kinds of wonderfull product to reach the public, and see what they "buy". (watch)

YouTube.

They watch junk.

Ultimately, the 'power' lies with the purchasers of the product. Stop buying (watching) junk, and it stops being made.

SO, while a certain ammount of responsibility and power is distributed - in my estimation, I think the bulk of the power, and therefore the bulk of the RESPONSIBILITY lies with the 'public'.

Which, of course, is comprised of individuals.

I don't watch what I don't want to see. I don't write what I don't want to watch.
 
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WriteKnight

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A side note to the discussion - maybe a different thread?

The odd thing about the rise of Cable TV and the Internet, is that what was once thought to be a 'small' market, has been discovered to be a very large "NICHE" market.

Who knew entire channels could be devoted to Home Repair? Or cooking?

Magazines did.

So, the 'splintering' of market share and the subsequent GROWTH of those shares is another example of how market forces drive the CORPORATE gatekeepers to feed the appetite of 'the market'. Sci-Fi Channel? HISTORY Channel?

Who knew twenty years ago?

EDIT: Ask yourself why PORN is a 'premium' channel, and Religious Programming is free? (Or 'included')
 
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nmstevens

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Neal,

I'm in concurrence with a lot of what you wrote, but you bring up some seemingly contradictory points...

First you advocate that we as 'artists' and 'creators' are responsible -

And one can't blame the "market" for this. We as makers of movies and of television shows have to bear the responsibility for what we do.

And then you wrote:

Again, the justification for the scale of the story was *not* the public interest, no matter what anybody might say -- it was market forces -- it was the public demand for the story.

Market forces drove the story to a scale vastly out of keeping with the actual scale of the danger involved from the actual killer and once it had achieved the kind of international dimension that it ultimately achieved, the "copycat" phenomenon took off.

And so it would seem that market forces DO controll what gets aired. MARKET FORCES created the copycat killers.



Long ago, I was strolling through a flea market with a friend of mine. We came upon a shop selling HUGE garish paintings of Elvis done on black velvet. My friend asked "Why would anyone create this crap???"

"Because someone will buy it," was my obvious retort.

Your post points out that 'responsibility' lies with those who create the art - In our case writers - as well as those who 'buy' it - the audience. I'm in agreement that it is not a zero sum game. That there is plenty of responsibility to go around. Where does the 'bulk' of that responsibility lie?

The OP seems to think the responsibility is soley "Hollywoods"... for leading the public astray. Most of us seem to agree that 'hollywood' tends to 'follow' trends rather than create them. As you point out, Film/Television is a great megaphone or 'amplifier' of trends - with the power to spread an idea or philosophy much farther and faster than word-of-mouth.

But spead it would, nevertheless.

"Junk food" or "Health Food" - there is a market for both. Who's responsibility is it, to controll the public access to such junk? Yours? Mine? THE GATEKEEPERS? Those who 'greenlight' a project?

Untill very recently, the ability to create a two hour 'motion picture' was restricted to those with vast ammounts of money, and very specific skillsets. To a great degree, the decision to expend enormous ammounts of time/energy and money on a project was determined by the ability to recoup that expense. "Will it sell?"

Offering the public something it is not already buying is an ENORMOUS risk (Especially to those lacking creative 'vision') This is why Hollywood so seldom TAKES risks - its why it tends - for the most part - to follow trends rather than lead them. (Sequels anyone?)Sure, it amplifies those trends reflected in HUMAN NATURE - and there are people on the payroll out there, 'taking the pulse' of the youth on the street to see what the 'next hot thing' will be - meaning already is, in some areas.

But as you say its not a zero sum.

Its MARKET FORCES that are the heavier handed element, in my estimation. Everyone is responsible for what they do. Every parent is responsible for what they allow their child to watch. Every artist who must feed his family, is responsible for writing something that will pay the bills, AND be able to 'live' with himself for creating it.

Technology now allows every kid with a video camera to make two hour long 'movies'. The internet allows every budding Tarantino the ability to post his epic, where MILLIONS of people can see it! Think of that, no longer having to hang a sheet in the garage and invite a few friends - MILLIONS can see my creativity!!!

YouTube is a great example of what market forces 'crave'. They crave junk food. They crave the latest piece of gossip, the latest political 'gotcha', the latest extreme accident, the latest video of some crime caught on tape, they crave the most bizarre piece of tittillation available at any given moment.

So the question becomes - Is MARKET FORCES another term for HUMAN NATURE ? Is it the basest form of Human Nature to slow down, and look at the accident - causing others to get stuck in traffic?

I don't know. I don't write horror. I don't 'get' it. It doesn't appeal to me. I don't judge people who do it. (No, no slight to you - Good on you for your success, and I appreciate your posting and presence on the board). Heck, for that matter, I've made a great deal of money "REcreating" violence and death on the live stage. So there's gallons of Karo blood on my hands, for sure.

Again, the OP seems to want to 'blame' Hollywood, or the 'gatekeepers' for CREATING the junk food. Given the choice, will enough people BUY the health food?

I'm doing my best to write it. I'm hoping somebody will step up, and PRODUCE it.

That's MY choice.

But the GATEKEEPERS in our society, are the corporate media. The shareholders demand profit, the audience demands blood. I think I hear you say that we as 'artists' albeit located far far down on the 'production chain' are responsible for injecting some sort of 'moral' into our creativity - and hope it survives the production process.

WHO gave the public "Bread and Circuses" in ancient Rome, to keep them compliant? WHY did the public attend?

WHO gives the public "REALITY TV" and why do they watch it?

I can honestly say, I have never, ever watched a single episode of "Reality" television. Can't tell you how 'survivor' works, or what "big brother' or any of the other shows are about.

I 'vote' with my remote. I write with my concience. I guess that is all we can do, no?

When I say that market forces drove the demand, I did not mean to say that we are required to satisfy the "demands of the market" -- unless we view ourselves as only businessmen.

That's the point I was trying to make. If our goal, as makers of art, is simply to maximize profits, then our goal should always be to make movies or TV shows that will, at all times, reach the largest number of people for the smaller number of dollars. Period.

And what we put on the screen to achieve that end really shouldn't matter to us.

An hour of boobs and an hour of car crashes. Repeat with variations.

The point is -- what we aim to put on the screen *isn't* strictly driven by market forces.

And what the news media *pretends* to be their motivation for putting things on the screen is not driven, according to them, by market forces -- but in service to the public interest.

Obviously, we can't ignore them. If we create works that nobody wants to see -- nobody's going to see them.

But we can't just say -- hey, if we don't right this exploitative crap, somebody else will, so it might as well be me.

You might as well say -- I see this wallet lying on the street -- if I don't grab it and take the money, somebody else will.

Well, no -- maybe somebody else will. Then again, maybe somebody else will return the wallet without stealing the money. And maybe I should do that.

In any case -- even if somebody else will make the wrong choice -- even if most people will make the wrong choice, I still have the personal option of making the right choice.

There are horror movies that are worth watching. There are movies that explore violence and sexuality in a way that is grown up and respectable and are worth watching (because these are issues that are part of the human experience and are worth exploring in the context of art) -- and there are movies that are simply porn -- whether sexual porn or violence porn.

I'm not advocating censorship -- any more than I'm advocating banning junk food.

What I'm an advocate of is the acceptance of personal responsibility.

Those who eat it don't get to blame those who make it for killing them.

But it works both ways. Those who make it don't get off the hook.

You can't make your money making and selling crap and claim that your hands are clean simply on the grounds that people love to eat crap -- nor on the basis that if you didn't make it, somebody else would.

Even granting that that's true -- if people are desperate to eat crap, and it's a free country and someone will satisfy that need -- then let someone else do that.

At the very least, let your hands be clean. Each person, whether he's selling food, or selling ideas, has the right to say, I, at least, will not be the purveyor of crap.

NMS