Are gerund clauses evil?

Madison · May 31, 2008

Are gerund clauses a no-no?

I know that everything is bad in excess, but I just have this bad feeling that I read somewhere that gerund clauses should be avoided. Yes or no?

(I didn't get much done on my WIP tonight, worrying about the evils of gerund clauses - the bold is a gerund clause, just as an example)

StoryG27 · May 31, 2008

Like you said, just don't overuse it. Moderation is the key.

Stop worrying. Start writing.

Hehe, that could be my new motto.

Deleted member 42 · May 31, 2008

Madison said:
Are gerund clauses a no-no?

I know that everything is bad in excess, but I just have this bad feeling that I read somewhere that gerund clauses should be avoided. Yes or no?

(I didn't get much done on my WIP tonight, worrying about the evils of gerund clauses - the bold is a gerund clause, just as an example)

No, not at all evil.

CaroGirl · May 31, 2008

Nothing grammatical is evil, provided it isn't overused.

SPMiller · May 31, 2008

These constructions often indicate progressive action concurrent with whatever follows. Consider:

Raising the gun, she shot him.

You can obviously see why this is wrong. She didn't shoot while raising the gun; she shot after raising the gun.

This sort of misuse indicates a writer of low quality. You'd be surprised how often I find these mistakes in SYW.

blacbird · May 31, 2008

Key questions are: Does it say what your really want to say? and Is there a better, stronger way to say it?

caw

kzmiller · May 31, 2008

I had to look this up in my Deluxe Transitive Vampire (by Karen Elizabeth Gordon) and I want to make sure that we're talking about the same grammatical construction. If not, can you give me an example of what you mean?

According to the Vampire:

You can find out if an -ing verb is a gerund (verbal noun) by the following test. Can it be preceded by an article or by a possessive form? She uses the example of ogling and displays its 'nounlike' functions in the following examples:
Ogling stevedores is his favorite lunch break. (subject)
He relishes ogling stevedores. (direct object)
A frequent pastime of his is ogling stevedores. (subjective complement)
He revels in ogling stevedores. (object of preposition in)
Ogling stevedores is his just dessert. (subject again)

But in: Oggling stevedores, he forgot to look at his watch or watch the clock and missed an urgent appointment with his podiatrist, ogling stevedores is a participial phrase modifying our nameless voyeur.

I'm not familiar enough with grammar's definitions to do more than quote the Deluxe Transitive Vampire, I'm afraid. I can say that I use gerunds as described above all the time and that they're basically invisible in language. For example, "Getting to the docks wouldn't be as easy as Mark had hoped," is a gerund phrase construction that works fine and I don't think anyone would say boo to it. It's like you say, everything in moderation.

If this isn't what you mean, or if I've looked up the wrong thing in the book let me know. I'd like to help if I can.

Exir · May 31, 2008

If it sounds right, use them. I am bound to be a tad bit skeptical about so-called rules that dismiss an entire type of sentence construction. Gerund clauses exist because there is a need to use them.

Shweta · May 31, 2008

Madison said:
(I didn't get much done on my WIP tonight, worrying about the evils of gerund clauses - the bold is a gerund clause, just as an example)

You're on to their secret, aren't you. From now on you'll have to watch your back. Because it's true. TRUE! Gerund clauses will knife you before they'll give you the time of day. Cackling to themselves as they roast innocents over their tame bits of hellfire, grinning wickedly, plotting the death of all humans, they...

Oh, wait. This is a public forum, isn't it? *ahem*
I mean, gerund clauses aren't evil at all. Nope. Like all other grammatical forms, they're useful in moderation, when they serve the movement and the rhythm of your story. You can trust the gerund clauses. (It was nice knowing you.)

Madison · May 31, 2008

Okay good. Just wanted to check

Kami, I'm not exactly a grammar expert yet so I don't really know... Thanks for your willingness to help! I think since everyone has given the green flag, I'll plunge ahead (in moderation so I don't have to watch my back!)

maestrowork · May 31, 2008

Madison said:
Are gerund clauses a no-no?

I know that everything is bad in excess, but I just have this bad feeling that I read somewhere that gerund clauses should be avoided. Yes or no?

(I didn't get much done on my WIP tonight, worrying about the evils of gerund clauses - the bold is a gerund clause, just as an example)

It's not a gerund. A gerund is a verb used as a noun: "swimming is good for you."

Here, it is a participial clause.

There's nothing wrong with participial clauses. Read any novels and you'll find they're rather common. But overusing anything (here, I just used a gerund) is going to draw attention to them. Also, participial clauses sometimes lead to run-on sentences:

He stopped to take a look at the situation, catching his breath, washing his hand in the sink, waiting for the rest of the group to catch up, trying not to let his worries show.

The trick is variety. If you use a participial clause (or two) in every sentence, it's going to be stale really quickly. It's a very useful thing, but like everything else in the writer's toolbox, you need to mix and match to create the right flow.

Polenth · May 31, 2008

I don't understand all the grammar terms and nitty-gritty, but if someone tried to take my ing words away, I'd be crying. I've liked ing words ever since Bill the Bricky taught me how to use them.

Kalyke · Jun 1, 2008

You can use everything, even passive sentences, even adjectives, even adverbials. As those people who say, "Hey, wait a minute, nearly everything published has XYZ and I am being told I can't use them?" Well, it's not that you can't it is just that you need to write clearly.

Mix sentence structures and types, for variety.
Do not "overuse" certain things that bug editors.
Write clearly.

a_sharp · Jun 1, 2008

Ditto what others have said, but add at least the consideration that a gerund is sometimes weaker than an alternative, even if not overused. Especially the past participial form.

Harry was running down the hall when Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

vs.

As Harry dashed down the hall, Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

Maybe not the best example, but I hope you get the idea that "dashed" has more punch than "was running."

The use of the past participial gerund is a carryover from our everyday speech and street talk. It's the background noise in our heads as we formulate action for a scene, and often it's the first thing our fingers blurt out. This could be one source of the "evil" gerund of which you speak.

Dawnstorm · Jun 1, 2008

a_sharp said:
Ditto what others have said, but add at least the consideration that a gerund is sometimes weaker than an alternative, even if not overused. Especially the past participial form.

Harry was running down the hall when Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

vs.
As Harry dashed down the hall, Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

Maybe not the best example, but I hope you get the idea that "dashed" has more punch than "was running."

Um, what you're giving us here is a "present participle" not a "gerund". It's used in a progressive construction, with a helping verb ("was") in the past tense.

Second, what you're demonstrating here has little to do with "was running" vs "dashed". You've completely recast the sentence. Compare:

1.a Harry was running down the hall when Hermione rounded the corner, and they collided.

1.b As Harry ran down the hall, Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

2.a Harry was dashing down the hall when Hermione rounded the corner, and they collided.

2.b As Harry dashed down the hall, Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

I'd still prefer "As Harry was dashing down the hall...", actually, because it's still the longer action that's interrupted. It's just not as obvious when you use "as", so you can get away with simple past tense. (Notice that didn't say: "Harry dashed down the hall when Hermione rounded the corner." There's a reason for that.)

The use of the past participial gerund is a carryover from our everyday speech and street talk. It's the background noise in our heads as we formulate action for a scene, and often it's the first thing our fingers blurt out. This could be one source of the "evil" gerund of which you speak.

Well, yes and no. We're using this in everyday speech because it's an integral part of English grammar, and this particular rule ("get rid of was running" in favour of "ran/dashed/whatever") has ruined many a good sentence before my eyes. (And, as I said, it's just the progressive/continuous tense, not a "past participial gerund".)

maestrowork · Jun 1, 2008

a_sharp said:
Harry was running down the hall when Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

vs.

As Harry dashed down the hall, Hermione rounded the corner and they collided.

Um, that's a whole different topic. It has nothing to do with gerunds or participial clauses. It's a matter of whether to use a continuous tense ("was running") vs. a stronger verb. One can simply say "Harry was dashing down the hall" as well.

Here's a participial clause:

Dashing down the hall, Harry collided with Hermione who just rounded the corner.

You can structure this differently:

Harry, dashing down the hall, collided with Hermione.

A gerund is:

Dashing down the hall was strictly forbidden during office hours.
-- it's used as a noun.

We may discuss when to use the "continuous" tense vs. simple past/present tense in another thread.

Gray Rose · Jun 1, 2008

Nothing is evil per se. Not -ing clauses, not the dreaded passive voice, not the as construction. Exclude too many things from your repertoire and you run the risk of writing monotonous prose.

But it is very much a question of frequency, and especially of what beginning writers tend to overuse. The "VERBing , VERB" construction and "as he did X, she did Y" construction may well be overused. That's why it's important, IMHO, to develop some awareness of syntax and try to vary your sentence structure, within reason.

Shweta · Jun 1, 2008

Right, more seriously, I think gerund clauses (like the passive!) are overused in institutional-speak and bad academic prose, so the association is often a distant, vague voice of authority, rather than a more friendly fiction voice.

[Running in the halls] is forbidden.
[Reading during turbulence] may result in nausea.
[Writing fiction] is a chancy venture.

As I best understand it, the main risk of them is really the risk of sounding like you should be signing off - THE MGMT. So it's worth thinking about your usage to make sure you're evoking the emotional content as well as the specific actions that you want.

David I · Jun 2, 2008

maestrowork said:
Um, that's a whole different topic. It has nothing to do with gerunds or participial clauses. It's a matter of whether to use a continuous tense ("was running") vs. a stronger verb. One can simply say "Harry was dashing down the hall" as well.

Here's a participial clause:

Dashing down the hall, Harry collided with Hermione who just rounded the corner.

You can structure this differently:

Harry, dashing down the hall, collided with Hermione.

A gerund is:

Dashing down the hall was strictly forbidden during office hours.
-- it's used as a noun.

We may discuss when to use the "continuous" tense vs. simple past/present tense in another thread.

Maestro has opened up an even larger bucket of worms there. As he suggests, this branches out into all manner of issues.

Clauses of any sort or not inherently exil (except maybe Bad Santa), but they are slippery little fellows who need adult supervision.

Any clause employing "as" in an action needs to be looked at with a magnifying glass. The word implies some unspecified degree of simultaneity, and often results in impossible actions. For example,

As the window slammed shut, he dove across the floor onto his knees, dug his burglary kit from his backpack, and spent a nervous minute picking the lock on the door.

That is one loooonnnnnnng window slam.

The same problems arise with -ing words in opening clauses. John Gardner says:

Sentences beginning with infinite-verb clauses are so common in bad writing that one is wise to trat them as guilty until proven innocent--sentences, that is, that beginwith such phrases as "Looking up from her sewing, Martha said..." or "Carrying the duck in his left hand, Henry..." In really bad writing such introductory phrases regularly lead to shifts in temporal focus or to plain illogic. The bad writer tells us, for instance: "Firing the hired man and burning down his shack, Eloise drove into town."

I see those kinds of sentences all the time--even in published fiction. And the odd thing is, usually when you point them out, the writers can't see what's wrong with them.

Matera the Mad · Jun 2, 2008

LOL -- I just wrote in another thread, it's like hanging a sign on your back that says "Kick me, I'm a N00B"

And thank you for that stab in the heart to the hateful as creature.

slcboston · Jun 2, 2008

I rather happen to like gerunds, so long as they're properly used.

Participial phrases, too.

(Somewhere there's an English teacher getting hot and bothered by this thread.

)

maestrowork · Jun 2, 2008

slcboston said:
(Somewhere there's an English teacher getting hot and bothered by this thread. )

just don't mention the dangling participles.

slcboston · Jun 2, 2008

Ray... quit stalking me.

SPMiller · Jun 2, 2008

Hi guys.

maestrowork · Jun 2, 2008

slcboston said:
Ray... quit stalking me.

I was here first. Sell crazy somewhere else. Off you go now.

Are gerund clauses evil?

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