Questions about prayer

I've started to reply twice and deleted both, and have come to the conclusion that I'm a sniveling coward, afraid to put in print what I believe because it'll sound hokey, ridiculous, and make me look like a fool.

Now that I've admitted this...

Disclaimer first: This is about my fumbling attempts at prayer. Your mileage may vary.

Toothpaste, there was this 2-year period when God was pursuing me like a writer pursuing an agent. (The whole story is in Zoombie's "Why do you believe" thread, if you care.) When I turned around and got caught, suddenly the whole idea of prayer changed. It used to be reciting stuff I was "supposed" to recite, dutifully praying for God to heal/cure someone, help them find a job, etc. Now--and this is an ongoing thing; I'm still stumbling in the dark sometimes--it's more like me flat on my face before His presence (mentally--hard to do that while driving a car or cooking dinner, yanno?). Within that mental image, I worship Him, and subject myself to His will, and then ask Him to reveal His will for me, my family, whatever situation I'm praying for. This doesn't preclude me from praying, for example, that my son return home safely from a band trip, or that He bring physical and spiritual aid to the China earthquake victims. It's more that everything is dependent on His will, and I'm looking to be an active part of that, while at the same time praying for certain specifics.


Why do I think that made less than no sense?

Roger? Pat? III? Help!

callalily61 said:

Roger? Pat? III? Help!

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I don't see why, Cally. You're doing just fine.

Prayer is talking to God. Having a conversation. And just like you have different kinds of conversations with people, you can have different kinds of conversations with God. So prayer isn't just one thing.

When you talk to people, sometimes you want to unburden yourself, sometimes you want to just shoot the breeze. Sometimes you want to ask for help, others you want to get to know someone better. Sometimes you want to tell the other what a great person he or she is. Other times you want to rant.

Prayer can be all of these things. Prayer can be a way to praise God just for who He is or way to rant and rave. Prayer can be a way to ask for help or just a time to grow closer to God. Prayer can be a way to meditate, or a time to confess all the rotten things you've done and ask for forgiveness. Not only can prayer be different things to different people, it can be a different thing for the same person at various times.

Does prayer make a difference? I believe it does. When I'm in prayer regularly, those are the times I feel closer to God and the times when I most accurately portray him to the world. I'm a "better" person. When I get out of the prayer habit, those are the times that I let Him down the most with how I live my life. When I'm in prayer, I am far more peaceful, kind, loving, joyful, patient, all those good things.

I believe God always answers prayers of petition. Sometimes it's "yes", sometimes it's "no", and sometimes it's "yes, but wait". That's because He knows what is ultimately best for us. Jeremiah has a great verse for that:

”‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.’” (Jeremiah 29:11-13, NIV)

It's not that someone prays better or lives a better life or anything like that. God has our best interests at heart. I can't tell you the number of times I've prayed for specific things (new job, new house, etc.) only to discover something better was waiting for me.

Well, I've guess I've written a sermon. But that's what I think prayer is and what it does.

Sometimes I just do it to say "thanks."

Roger and Lily have said it well already, but a couple of other thoughts.

In the Lord's prayer (considered a model for how to pray), one of the lines is "thy will be done." I think that when we pray for things, it is talking with God and it is sometimes petitioning him for things. Part of the reason we pray is to get in line with God's will. Yes, we want these things, but before anything else, we are submitting ourselves to what He thinks is best. EG, "Lord, please heal grandpa." We're asking this with the assumption that God will do it if He wills it; if he does not, then it will not happen, and we are willing to accept that. We understand that "in all things, God works for the good of those who love him and who are called according to his purpose." So even if God doesn't answer the prayer the way we wanted, we trust that it is in our best interests - even if we don't understand why.

Does prayer have an effect on how God acts? I think many things will happen regardless of whether or not we pray. But there are cases in the bible where specific prayers resulted in God taking pity on that person. In 2 Chronicles God says, "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

Prayer is also a participation in God's work. If God is going to do something, he's going to do it. But he might not use YOU to accomplish his purpose. However, if you come before him and ask him to use you, he will direct your paths and allow you to participate in His work. The more "in tune" with God you are, the more you are going to be aware of those opportunities and invitations. And prayer is one of the best ways to understand God's will.

Anyway. Just some thoughts. Hope this helps.

I'm not as learned as my fellow AWers here, so I'll just tell you my own, personal take on prayer.

To my mind, yes, when I'm praying, it's a conversation with God, though it's often pretty short. Something as simple as "Thank You for this day." As far as praying for others go, I have no idea whether or not it works to help turn His attention, but I DO know that it helps to support those who are struggling. It is a big comfort to know that someone else cares enough to spare a moment to send a prayer up on your behalf, that someone is pulling for you.

That can be the most beneficial aspect of prayer. It brings people together.

That's not Biblical, to my knowlege, but it is my belief. Hope it helps!

Prayer is simply talking with God. Note I said "talking with" not "talking at" to "talking to". It's the same as talking with your wife or husband or child or parent or neighbor or .... You talk and you expect a response. I believe that God responds.

People pray to say thanks, sometimes to ask for something, sometimes just to chat, again just like talking to a close friend. You ask friends for favors; sometimes they grant them, sometimes they don't, sometimes they encourage you to do it yourself--same as God.

Does it make a difference in everyday life? That's the same as asking do you believe in miracles? Many, if not most, people do. If not, there are a whole lot more coincidences out there than pure chance can account for.

I'll start by saying that I'm agnostic. Certain aspects of regligion, Jesus, or God I believe, or want to believe, others I find difficult.

As for prayer, in part I sometimes think people pray to make themselves feel a little better, (not in a selfish way, but in a desperate need to help way) I think it may make them feel they are doing something to help when there is no other way of helping. I also think it's a way of showing others how much we really care. When you tell someone you are praying for them, it's like telling them you really care about what happens to them and wish them the best.

If someone close to me is sick and dying, I'll do everything possible to try to find the best doctor and the best care. But if I've done all I can and he's still sick and dying, all I can do now is pray. In this case, I think I'd be praying, begging God not to take the person I love. (Yes, even if I am agnostic.) (I also don't believe you should be praying for trivial things like winning a ball game or getting that car you really like.)

Do I think the prayers will do any good to my sick loved-one? Other than perhaps his knowledge that I'm praying for him, I honestly don't think so. But, I guess for me, it's the only thing I have left to cling to. And even if you believe in God, when He decides to take someone, He takes them, no? No matter how hard you pray?

Honestly, I think that petitioning God helps us to understand God's plan.

For example: The last year for me was extremely stressful. I'd had a lot of things thrown at me (my beloved grandmother dying, other deaths, my sons (plural, not typo)being diagnosed with autism and other learning disabilities), and I was struggling to keep my head on straight. I prayed to Him for wisdom, and strength. I understood that it was God's plan for our family that these things happen, and so by praying to gain the things I needed, it helped me to focus on cultivating it myself. Not to mention, I truly believe that He doesn't just wave some wand and "poof", I'm wiser or stronger, but instead presents opportunities for me to learn how to become so on my own.

That's part of the free will thing, too, to my mind. By giving me opportunities, He gives me a choice. I can cope, or not. I can learn, or not. I can blame Him for all my troubles, or put my trust in Him, that He knows what He's doing.

This seems a little disjointed, I suppose, but I'm a little tired. I hope it made sense.

Toothpaste said:

What I guess I am most curious about is the purpose of praying for specific things, the petitioning part. I am curious if He has a plan, what is the point in praying at all for something to happen or change? Can one truly change God's mind, and if so, what does that mean? Does that mean that God is not all knowing that He can make mistakes? Or does it mean that God is willing to change the plan so as not to affect you but still fulfill the plan, and if that is the case, why would God choose in the first place to do something that would negatively affect His creations if he could do the same plan without such effect?

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This is coming from the fingers of someone who simply can't grasp Quantum Mechanics, and has only the glimmer of what string theory is (although I think string theory is way majorly cool).

Us humans are trapped in time. We can only go forward, and thus see past, present, future. God, OTOH, sees it all now, as Doctor Who said last season, in one big timey-wimey, wibbly-wobbly thing. So (this is how I'm working with it) we pray for something. God works His will in the eternal NOW. He takes His will and our prayers and all the possible ramifications of those--still in the NOW--and works His will. We, trapped in linear time, see a prayer as answered with a yes, no, or not now (as Roger said) with this extremely limited perception.

Now, why the NOW can't include the Buffalo Bills not sucking out loud is a question I'm saving for after I die.

Do parents grant what their children ask them for? Sometimes. Sometimes not. Sometimes yes, but in a roundabout way. Do we not still want our children to ask us? Of course we do.

If we are God's children, would we not expect Him to do the same, and should He not expect us to keep asking?

Like Lily said, God sees a much BIGGER picture than we see, just as we see a bigger picture than our children see. I believe God hears all our prayers and answers them all--it's just that sometimes we either don't want to or can't hear the answers. Someday we'll know...

I pretty much consider myself agnostic as well - raised Catholic, but me and the Church had a parting of the ways with little hope of reconciliation.

I never gave much thought to prayer - aside from "Please let the Giants win the Super Bowl".

Then I had children. And there was something about becoming a mom that made me stop and wonder - what if there really is a God? Not exactly any sort of epiphany. I didn't feel "saved" or anything like that. But it was a case of looking down at my newborn daughter and seeing a miracle (sounds hokey, but you know what I mean) - it was like I just realized I was a part of something so much bigger than me. And with a newborn, comes a whole new set of worries. I found myself talking to God when things got really rough or really stressful (my daughter had horrible colic, so I spent the better part of her first few weeks at home walking around like a zombie. Horrible sleep deprivation. Mood swings. The whole shebang.) It wasn't that I couldn't talk to anyone else, but no one else could really understand. And I found that I felt better afterwards.

Now I do it on a pretty regular basis - nothing formal, nothing fancy - just a Thank You some times, or a Why is this happening? Whatever. Sometimes I bitch to God - which is okay as well, IMHO. And I find that I just feel... peace... when I've finished. And I like the idea of someone watching over me, not to mention that I do believe everything happens for a reason. It's a comfort - no misunderstandings, no having to apologize because something came out the wrong way - just an ear to bend whenever.

Jesus taught by example by praying to the Father for hours on end. Prayer is not about getting answers as much as it is about a relationship.

Clearly, Jesus new the value of prayer. His only instruction on prayer came from His lips. Considering the source I'd say it is perfect in every way.
His sublimation to the will of His Father is also shown at Gethsemane.
Submission. Tough eh?

An old parish priest once told me the secret of success in this life. Work as if everything depends on you. Pray as if everything depends on God. It's unbeatable combination!

If I were to suggest a prayer of petition (which seems to be favored among we mortals) I'd ask, "How can I help You?"

C

Toothpaste said:

What I guess I am most curious about is the purpose of praying for specific things, the petitioning part. I am curious if He has a plan, what is the point in praying at all for something to happen or change? Can one truly change God's mind, and if so, what does that mean? Does that mean that God is not all knowing that He can make mistakes? Or does it mean that God is willing to change the plan so as not to affect you but still fulfill the plan, and if that is the case, why would God choose in the first place to do something that would negatively affect His creations if he could do the same plan without such effect?

Does God only grant they prayers of certain people, and what effect does that have on the believers for whom God did not grant their prayers? What prayers are better than others? Is there are hierarchy to His creations? Is a prayer by the pope more likely to be answered, than a prayer by a child who does not go to church every week? Is the answering of prayers directly proportional to how much of one life one devotes to God?

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Whoa. Welcome to PhD-level theology. Haha. You may be frustrated to know that nobody really has answers to this.

But based on how Jesus acted when he was on earth - NO, God does not answer prayers proportionally to how faithful we have been. Jesus sought the lost. He chastised those who imagined they had a direct line to God's will. He lifted up the humble, the meek, the downtrodden, the hopeless. His answers are nothing, nothing at all like a bargaining system where devotion is traded for results. If that were true then the most devout people would be the happiest and most successful, when the exact opposite is usually the case.

Personally, one lesson I have learned through difficult times is that it is not about MY faithfulness. It is about God's faithfulness. Everything in creation, everything he does is for his Glory, not ours. That is why we are "clay vessels" - fragile things. So when God does a work in us, the weaker we are, the more we know that it is He who accomplished the work. Instead of taking credit ourselves, all we can do is praise him.

I learned this firsthand during what I would call a crisis of faith: a year where I did not talk to God. I abandoned him. I hit rock bottom. I became a horrible person. And yet the whole time, I could see him working in me, through me. I could see how HE was faithful, how HE had not abandoned me, even when I had given up on him. He never let me go.

Anyway, one of my favorite bits from 2 Corinthians:

But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

I was always taught that prayer should be more a "let me accept your will" rather than a "gimmee, gimmee, gimmee."

With my writing, I offer the work to God because I believe he called me to it. What, if anything, will come out of it is his decision, not mine. I know what I would like to have happen, but I give it to him and let him use it as He sees fit. The research I have done for my series of Biblical novels has deepened my faith tremendously. If that's all that ever comes from it, I'm still a clear winner.

Incidentally, even in the Old Testement, we see God sometimes choosing people for their faithfulness... and other times choosing people in a way that seems completely random. I mean, Jacob? God basically picked him out of the womb and said "I'm going to favor this idiot."

Who knows why? God has his reasons. He says in Isaiah: "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Please forgive me if this has been said before.

I still, after decades of being a Christian, do not understand prayer, at least not the asking kind. I absolutely do not comprehend how my formulating a request will change what the God of the universe will do. If you want a coherent explanation, I can't give one.

But he tells us to pray, so I do. In one dramatic instance, he told me point blank out of the blue (I can still remember where I was) to pray for a certain friend. I argued a bit. The friend in question was a rebellious preacher's kid and I had pretty well lost hope for him. But finally I said, after finishing my arguing, "But if you tell me to pray for him, I guess it's worth doing." So I did. Within the week that prayer was answered. For some reason I cannot comprehend, the Lord of the starfields (thanks, Bruce Cockburn) wanted me to participate in his work of redemption. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can think of a lot of good arguments against such a far-fetched notion. But I accept that his thoughts are greater than my thoughts and I don't have to understand how or why it works to know that it does work.

I usually prefer much more intellectually coherent reasons for believing something. Most aspects of my faith I can explain much better. But there you are. On this point I have to fall back to the well-worn word "mystery".

Unanswered prayer is not a sign of deficient spirituality. (The apostle Paul records an instance when God refused to grant him his request, and it wasn't because he'd been a bad boy.) God sometimes has good reasons for saying no. He usually doesn't tell us what they are. For that reason, I make no attempt to judge situations or people or myself when prayers go unanswered. There is just way too much I don't know. In the Bible you will find Job's friends who attempted to oversimplify things and God gave them a thorough tongue-lashing. Jesus touched on the subject briefly too. (Although in both cases it was referring to when bad things happen to good people, not to unanswered prayer, but the two are very closely connected.)

Of course, there's a lot more to praying than asking for things, and though I haven't read all the responses, the first few I know were very good in addressing that.

For me, prayer is communication. My manner of praying is as varied as my manner of communicating however, I intentionally worship only God.

Sincerely,
Gehanna

Judg said:

But he tells us to pray, so I do. In one dramatic instance, he told me point blank out of the blue (I can still remember where I was) to pray for a certain friend. I argued a bit. The friend in question was a rebellious preacher's kid and I had pretty well lost hope for him. But finally I said, after finishing my arguing, "But if you tell me to pray for him, I guess it's worth doing." So I did. Within the week that prayer was answered.

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If you had failed to pray for him, do you believe the outcome might have been different?

I think that is the question. Are prayers effective -- in other words, will a particular outcome of a situation be determined, or at least influenced, by whether you pray about it or not.

If God indeed has a plan and purpose for everything, it would seem that whether you pray or not is already part of the equation.

So once again, there's that thorny problem of the relation between an all knowing God and free will. Which has been discussed for 2000 years, so I doubt if we can add anything.

Here is something more about why I pray. LOL ...I can not believe I am going to admit this in public.

I'm a tattletale. That's right. I'm a snitch. I run to Daddy and tell everything on everybody!

What can I say. I'm spoiled.

Sincerely,
Gehanna

Rugcat, there is no way I can know that. That's why I say that this doesn't make any sense to me. When I try to work it out in a nice logical framework, I can't make the pieces fit. What was clear is that he told me to do it. So I did.

You're right in saying we run into the same set of difficulties as we do with free will and the sovereignty of God. I sincerely think these things are just too big for our brains. Which doesn't mean they can't be true. But we are finite creatures with finite IQ's and it's not surprising that there are things beyond our grasp. I mean, is light a particle or a wave? Physicists can't wrap their heads around that one either. Maybe they will someday. Maybe they won't. Maybe our heads just aren't big enough to wrap our heads around seeming paradoxes. But even if we can't reconcile all the elements to our satisfaction, that doesn't mean that those things are any less true.

That level of theological sophistication is not within my reach. But faithfulness is.

JoNightshade said:

But based on how Jesus acted when he was on earth - NO, God does not answer prayers proportionally to how faithful we have been. Jesus sought the lost. He chastised those who imagined they had a direct line to God's will. He lifted up the humble, the meek, the downtrodden, the hopeless. His answers are nothing, nothing at all like a bargaining system where devotion is traded for results. If that were true then the most devout people would be the happiest and most successful, when the exact opposite is usually the case.

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You have driven home some of the points I have also tried to make about Christianity. Christ spent his time speaking to the people who needed to hear it! It's always been so very difficult for me to know people who believe (I like your word imagine better) that they have their own special thing going and that God favors them best because their Bible is in a protector (or because it is frayed and ragged). To me, there is only one God and He is the same God for everyone.

Carole said:

It's always been so very difficult for me to know people who believe (I like your word imagine better) that they have their own special thing going and that God favors them best because their Bible is in a protector (or because it is frayed and ragged).

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Are you saying there's something wrong with having a Bible protector? Huh? Huh?

Well I don't even HAVE one, so there, I'm definitely holier-than-thou.

Last year I had a major wakeup call when I had an incident with a homeless person (recorded somewhere here on AW...). I learned that some of the most hopeless, strung-out, messed up people... believe in God. And Jesus. Because that's all they've got left.

C.S. Lewis talks somewhere about how he thinks we'll be very surprised at who we find in heaven. And who will be first and last. I remember his little anecdote was of a Nazi soldier and an allied soldier shooting each other on the battlefield and managing to kill each other. And then waking up, the next moment, right beside each other in heaven. Brothers for eternity.

ETA: If some of my posts today are rambling and kinda loopy, sorry. I'm sick as a dog and totally high on sudafed. Is that possible?