Credits or not? One view.

Credits? or Credentials? I am writing my first novel after studying writing for 10 years. I do not expect this novel to sell, as it deals with unusual subjects. What I want the novel to do is to get me into a prestigious writing school master's program. I am doing this for my cv, or back of the book bio. So-and-so is a graduate of the (world famous school, this is her first novel)...Thus the book is more on the artistic side. While at the school, I intend to write and publish short stories to various of the better magazines, as students from this school often do. So, although I am writing, I am doing it as a means to the ends of collecting credentials.

I think the last statement is true as well, but all the published authors I have know in my day, have had some sort of Master's and prior juried workshop and clippings before publishing. I don't see it as opaque or unfair. Just as an architect, or an engineer cannot expect to jump into the highest stake projects, a writer needs to jump some hoops to prove competence. And the work needs to be fabulous, of course. Add to this confusion, many artists and writers are "self-proclaimed." There is no aptitude test. All you have to do is say you are a writer, and you become one. I've known a lot of people who expect that saying something will magically give them talent. Just because a person sits in front of a computer and types for 4 hours a day does not make him/her a writer. I've been to a lot of college undergraduate writing classes, and the majority of the material is unpublishable, untalented junk, and these are people who say they are writers.

I had virtually no writing credits when I sold my novel.

I hadn't submitted anything -- not one thing -- in almost five years. I do have an MFA, and I had a couple of poems in academic journals, but nothing other than that.

If the novel is good, then there will be interest.

arkady said:

I hate to dash hopes, but most of the editors I work with these days want prior publishing experience (writing credentials)from novelists. Yes they will look at new writer's books, however, if that writer writes in an area that's doesn't move well and the writer has no credits, they won't even look.

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Fortunately, there are still plenty of agents who will look at work from an unpublished, credit-free author. And take them on as clients. And sell their first novels to reputable publishers.

While I personally write with a female audience in mind, I find it somewhat naive to say most women primarily read romance and women's fiction. How many romance novels end up being in the top ten in sales over the course of a year? Woman will just as likely buy thrillers, fantasy or even horror if it's well-written and not too over the top.

And I know of very few novelists who got their start by writing short stories. Most just wrote damn good novels in the genre that interested them most.

Use Her Name said:

Just as an architect, or an engineer cannot expect to jump into the highest stake projects, a writer needs to jump some hoops to prove competence.

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A comparison between an architect and a writer is not a valid one, IMHO. You need to be formally trained in architecture in order to be licensed, and formal training will not happen if you cannot show talent and/or aptitude. If, after you graduate, you still lack talent for "the highest stake projects" you can always work in drafting, i.e. work on somebody else's ideas. A number of architects work on a large project. Architecture is a communal endeavor, and thus there is much more space for a range of talents in architecture than in writing.

This is just my uneducated 2c, but frankly an MFA will not turn a person into a Nabokov unless the said person has the potential. Nor will agents care whether or not you have an MFA. Publications in magazines count, yes, but if your query is not intriguing enough and your writing is lousy, publications will not help either.

Best of luck.
Rose

I have been told as well that I need to get short stories published before I try to get a novel published.
Well, I don't want to write short stories, I want to write novels- So that's what I do- If I get one published it will be on its own merits, not because I 'paid my dues'

I wish there was a single answer that worked across the board, but in regards to this I think credentials do help. Though I had an agent show interest in my work ultimately she passed. I have to get back to querying. I really do...Hehehehe.

That person's poor grasp of grammar and syntax clash with their positioning of themselves as a publishing insider.

Yes, prior published work is a strong plus. But if you don't have it, then there's nothing you can do about it other than sending your stuff out and trying to get it published.

Let's have a look at the latest NY Times Top 10 Hardcover Fiction List:

James Patterson - BA/MA in English
David Baldacci - BA in Political Science, Law degree.
Debbie Macomber - High School diploma
Harlan Coben - Political Science degree
Jhumpa Lahiri - MA, Creative Writing
Mary Higgins Clark - Secretarial School/Flight Attendant training
Joel C. Rosenberg - Studied at Syracuse U and Tel Aviv U, no specialty noted
Alex McCall Smith - Law degrees
Tom Rob Smith - One year scholarship in Creative Writing post Cambridge
Jennifer Weiner - BA in English/training in journalism.

Only one full-fledged MFA type education in the bunch, as far as brief research revealed. Political Science and Law look like the way to go. The high school diplomates have done all right, too.

Phaeal said:

Let's have a look at the latest NY Times Top 10 Hardcover Fiction List:

James Patterson - BA/MA in English
David Baldacci - BA in Political Science, Law degree.
Debbie Macomber - High School diploma
Harlan Coben - Political Science degree
Jhumpa Lahiri - MA, Creative Writing
Mary Higgins Clark - Secretarial School/Flight Attendant training
Joel C. Rosenberg - Studied at Syracuse U and Tel Aviv U, no specialty noted
Alex McCall Smith - Law degrees
Tom Rob Smith - One year scholarship in Creative Writing post Cambridge
Jennifer Weiner - BA in English/training in journalism.

Only one full-fledged MFA type education in the bunch, as far as brief research revealed. Political Science and Law look like the way to go. The high school diplomates have done all right, too.

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That is encouraging, thanks for doing the leg work to post this Phaeal!

IMHO, if you show up with the right manuscript at the right time, and present yourself as somebody who is professional and pleasant to work with, neither an agent nor an editor alive is going to give a crap about your "credentials."

The thing is that it's a false dilemma.

If you're a previously published writer, of course the experience will be one factor in drawing an agent's or publisher's interest.

If you're a previously unpublished writer, the only way you can become a published writer is to send your stuff out.

So there's no point worrying about it either way.

I think it's funny that many of these arguments act like you're born with credits. Using this logic, those born without credits have no chance. The logic doesn't hold up to scrutiny, because we know that you have to earn credits later in life. Therefore, those established writers started out with nothing, just like any other unpublished writer.

My novel was my first published fiction. I have graduate degrees, but they sure aren't in anything related to English or writing.

Very few of the published writers I know have MFAs, and very few of them had published stories before they published their first novel.

My advice: don't sweat it. Just write a good book.

Polenth said:

The logic doesn't hold up to scrutiny, because we know that you have to earn credits later in life. Therefore, those established writers started out with nothing, just like any other unpublished writer.

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I think what they're really trying to say is that the bar is higher. If you've got some published work in the market already, they cut you a bit of slack because they have some numbers, but a first-time author needs to write a much better book to be published.

It's really a business decision. I can only imagine that an editor looks at a first-time author the same way I do a recent CS graduate - he's enthusiastic and talented, but without solid real-world experience, I'm going to be investing a lot more time and effort in him until he gets that experience. He's got to be worth it.

There is other avenues to take if you don't have those funky letters after your name or haven't published any shorts. Such as, starting a writing blog before submitting, joining an online community or writers group, critiquing others work, networking via myspace or facebook or whatever. All or some of these can be added to the bio part of your query and will be checked by the agent/publisher if they like the premise of your story. It certainly helped me.

And writing something that will stand out from the crowd always helps.

JJ

I had no writing credits when I sold my first novel. I don't have an MFA or any writing-related education (my background is in clinical social work and counseling). I wrote some short stories and sent them out but my novel was accepted before any of my stories were.
In fact, most of those stories never were published as short fiction... though a couple morphed into novels and are now published or under contract. FWIW, I agree with everyone who is saying write what you want to write and send it out.

Good credentials may get you read faster, but it's the quality of the writing that gets you representation or a contract.

Bad credentials, on the other hand, are worse than having none.

JJ Cooper said:

I now have a blog

JJ

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Interesting blog, JJ and well done to get an Australian agent. I didn't bother getting an agent but went straight to the publisher - well, two publishers as the books are published by a different publisher in Australia to USA/Canada.

At the start of my writing, I was told to write short stories and try to win prizes to enhance my chances of getting a novel published. I wrote a dozen of them but didn't like the exercise very much. One of them was commended, one is published in an anthology and three others have been accepted for a different anthology. Of course, I mentioned this to my publishers and it might have been of some benefit. But I'm absolutely sure I wouldn't have got anywhere if they hadn't liked the stories. (My degree is in Information Technology so I'm sure that didn't come into the picture for an author of YA historical fantasy!)

Thanks mate. The query landed the agent. And after we started working on the proposal I mentioned the blog. She said it was a good idea to put it in the query, but that the rest was solid enough for her not to have had a look at it. She did have a look later and we agreed that it would pay dividends to mention it to publishers.

In my limited experience, I can say that editors look at blogs before they take your work to the acquisitions board. I have been told it helps with the marketting folk.

JJ

arkady said:

I hate to dash hopes, but most of the editors I work with these days want prior publishing experience (writing credentials)from novelists. Yes they will look at new writer's books, however, if that writer writes in an area that's doesn't move well and the writer has no credits, they won't even look.

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Perhaps I was writing in an area that moves well, but I have no credentials and sold my first YA novel in less than a month. So maybe that rings true in some genres or maybe even in non-fiction, but I'd call it an exception, rather than a rule.

The question is: are you writing at a professional level?

Someone who's sold short stories to legitimate markets is probably writing at a professional level. Someone who hasn't sold short stories to legitimate markets may also be writing at a professional level. That's all it means.

Everyone was unpublished when they started.